Australian Politics Forum - How to turn Science into a Religion.

NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: How to turn Science into a Religion. Reply #15 - Nov 6^th, 2011 at 10:03am Annie Anthrax wrote on Nov 6^th, 2011 at 9:56am: Cults don’t necessarily destroy the family unit and religion doesn’t always promote it. And not that secular disciplines are averse to shunning... The treatment of the mathematician Georg Cantor by his peers was closer to persecution than honest critique.
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Annie Anthrax Gold Member Offline Take the plan, spin it sideways Posts: 7057 Gender:	Re: How to turn Science into a Religion. Reply #16 - Nov 6^th, 2011 at 10:10am For Cantor we can scratch encouragement of independent critical thinking off the list too.
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muso

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Re: How to turn Science into a Religion.
Reply #17 - Nov 6^th, 2011 at 12:42pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 5:41pm:

Sappho wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 5:36pm:

Science, the final frontier. These are the voyages of the peoples of Earth. Their mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before.

Ah yes... That one.

Made great by its fame in the English speaking world for being the most well known statement containing a split infinitive Grin

Not that there's anything wrong with split infinitives. I love to dramatically emphasise parts of sentences using them. English is not Latin.

Opponents of split infinitives should be condemned to perpetually abide in a museum of grammar somewhere - and to permanently recall that hideous era where, having no other earthly purpose, having decided on the singular purpose of mangling a perfectly good language, they decided to model English grammar on Latin and teach it to three generations.

Unlike Latin, English is living, free and dynamic. I say unto ye brethren - Let us cast off the shackles of restrictions on split infinitives and adapt our dynamic language in accordance with current usage, to suit these changing times.

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: How to turn Science into a Religion. Reply #18 - Nov 6^th, 2011 at 12:46pm There is a religion called scientism, but it has nothing to do with the scientific principle.
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Sappho

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Re: How to turn Science into a Religion.
Reply #19 - Nov 6^th, 2011 at 1:07pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 6^th, 2011 at 10:03am:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Nov 6^th, 2011 at 9:56am:

Cults don’t necessarily destroy the family unit and religion doesn’t always promote it.

And not that secular disciplines are averse to shunning... The treatment of the mathematician Georg Cantor by his peers was closer to persecution than honest critique.

Well... Annie and Helian... I pass the banner to you since my attempt at finding a functional difference between cults and religion has not met your standards. Gizmo still needs an answer you see and you two, based on your ability to critique my attempt show a greater understanding of the functional differences than me.

And there must be a functional difference between them or else why on earth would their be different definitions of the words right?

Over to you then....

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muso

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Re: How to turn Science into a Religion.
Reply #20 - Nov 6^th, 2011 at 2:43pm

A cult is a religion and vice versa. I guess it's a question of perspective. A cult is usually a religion that causes disruption to the social norms of a society.

For example, in Roman times there was the Cult of Dionysus and the cult of Mithraism. At the time when there was an established polytheistic religion, Christianity was regarded as another cult that generally involved rabble rousing and disruption to social norms. It ceased to be a cult when it became the social norm, for example in medieval France.

Certainly Christianity in connection with the story of Hypatia of Alexandria could rightfully be described as a cult. For those who are unfamiliar, here is a synopsis:

http://www.librarising.com/spirituality/hypatia.html

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How to turn Science into a Religion.
Reply #21 - Nov 6^th, 2011 at 9:51pm

Sappho wrote on Nov 6^th, 2011 at 1:07pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 6^th, 2011 at 10:03am:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Nov 6^th, 2011 at 9:56am:

Cults don’t necessarily destroy the family unit and religion doesn’t always promote it.

And not that secular disciplines are averse to shunning... The treatment of the mathematician Georg Cantor by his peers was closer to persecution than honest critique.

Well... Annie and Helian... I pass the banner to you since my attempt at finding a functional difference between cults and religion has not met your standards. Gizmo still needs an answer you see and you two, based on your ability to critique my attempt show a greater understanding of the functional differences than me.

And there must be a functional difference between them or else why on earth would their be different definitions of the words right?

Over to you then....

Why waste time defining a difference? Religions have been cults and many cults have been spawned from religion (whatever either of them are, if not the same)...

My first post on this thread may have been intended to be humorous, but there was a point... That all religions have a founding tenet, a profession of faith... Islam declares itself in its call to prayer, Christianity with the Apostles Creed, Buddhism with the four noble truths...

Seems if you want to turn science into a religion... Start with a profession of faith, tenet(s) or founding statement...

Like say... From Knowledge comes Truth...

Is that a good start?

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: How to turn Science into a Religion.
Reply #22 - Nov 7^th, 2011 at 10:32am

Sappho wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 1:27pm:

Just for fun and without loosing any of the integrity inherent in Science, and because why it is not a Religion has been done to death, we might look at how real Religion, as aposed to Cults, are created and how we might embue a little of that Religion into Science!

Read that twice and then tell me; Are you Interested?

Ok then. How shall we begin?

What the hell, I'll have a go.

Science's driving force, that of a desire for certainty or to know, is the same drive found in religion. The desire to fix and lay down absolute maxims is man's ancient inclination to find and understand his place in the world. On this account science is rooted in same desires as religion. (Genealogically speaking, science grows out of philosophy, and philosophy grows out of theology, so it's no surprise that its base desire is the same).

What differs greatly is their methodologies. But for argument's sake, I'll argue that science's positing of maxims and truths relies on a similar type of abstraction of phenomena that religion does. While religion relies heavily on intuition and claim the cause of phenomena 'is god,' (except for when we get into the free will debate because god doesn't cause us to be 'evil,' apparently, it's the individual's fault), science uses cause and effect relations, that is, it looks at how effects are caused by a previous phenomenon. Meaning, a sequence of events take place where a previous phenomena is singled out to be the cause of a particular effect. This procedure pretty much rapes the timeline of events by singling out a few causes and effects from the billion of possible and actual causes and effects. So, because the timeline or genealogy of a phenomena is ignored and the 'here and now' is taken as given, science reifies its concepts and sequences of cause and effect. Here, a "faith" is maintained that each cause will have a particular effect, all the while being ignorant of the billions of causes that have produced the particular effect under consideration. This is a type of dogma because it lays down absolute maxims.

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Sappho

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Re: How to turn Science into a Religion.
Reply #23 - Nov 7^th, 2011 at 3:11pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 6^th, 2011 at 9:51pm:

Sappho wrote on Nov 6^th, 2011 at 1:07pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 6^th, 2011 at 10:03am:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Nov 6^th, 2011 at 9:56am:

Cults don’t necessarily destroy the family unit and religion doesn’t always promote it.

And not that secular disciplines are averse to shunning... The treatment of the mathematician Georg Cantor by his peers was closer to persecution than honest critique.

Well... Annie and Helian... I pass the banner to you since my attempt at finding a functional difference between cults and religion has not met your standards. Gizmo still needs an answer you see and you two, based on your ability to critique my attempt show a greater understanding of the functional differences than me.

And there must be a functional difference between them or else why on earth would their be different definitions of the words right?

Over to you then....

Why waste time defining a difference?

Oh I don't know... maybe because the English language sees a significantly distinct difference between them... so much so as to give each a different name and variance in meaning associated with those different names!

But what the hey... who cares about meanings given to words eh? Much better to narrow our world view to that which is Helian's experience... yes?

Perhaps then... the distinction that has been provided is a functional distinction after all and what we have from you and Annie is nothing more than an attempt at redefining word to suit your own world view rather than the world view as expressed in current and reputable dictionary definitions.

Quote:

Religions have been cults and many cults have been spawned from religion (whatever either of them are, if not the same)...

Yes... and? Link that to the thread please, which is about turning Science into a Religion.

Quote:

My first post on this thread may have been intended to be humorous, but there was a point... That all religions have a founding tenet, a profession of faith... Islam declares itself in its call to prayer, Christianity with the Apostles Creed, Buddhism with the four noble truths...

Are you suggesting that Science does not have a 'profession of faith' upon which all else is founded?

You would be wrong if you thought that.

Quote:

Seems if you want to turn science into a religion... Start with a profession of faith, tenet(s) or founding statement...

Like say... From Knowledge comes Truth...

Is that a good start?

No it is not. It would certainly make for a nice little mantra but that is all.

What about the axioms of mathematics, of which there can be no proofs, which science must concede to, in good faith, if it is to pursue knowledge?

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How to turn Science into a Religion.
Reply #24 - Nov 8^th, 2011 at 12:40am

Sappho wrote on Nov 7^th, 2011 at 3:11pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 6^th, 2011 at 9:51pm:

Sappho wrote on Nov 6^th, 2011 at 1:07pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 6^th, 2011 at 10:03am:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Nov 6^th, 2011 at 9:56am:

Cults don’t necessarily destroy the family unit and religion doesn’t always promote it.

And not that secular disciplines are averse to shunning... The treatment of the mathematician Georg Cantor by his peers was closer to persecution than honest critique.

Well... Annie and Helian... I pass the banner to you since my attempt at finding a functional difference between cults and religion has not met your standards. Gizmo still needs an answer you see and you two, based on your ability to critique my attempt show a greater understanding of the functional differences than me.

And there must be a functional difference between them or else why on earth would their be different definitions of the words right?

Over to you then....

Why waste time defining a difference?

Oh I don't know... maybe because the English language sees a significantly distinct difference between them... so much so as to give each a different name and variance in meaning associated with those different names!

But what the hey... who cares about meanings given to words eh? Much better to narrow our world view to that which is Helian's experience... yes?

Perhaps then... the distinction that has been provided is a functional distinction after all and what we have from you and Annie is nothing more than an attempt at redefining word to suit your own world view rather than the world view as expressed in current and reputable dictionary definitions.

Quote:

Religions have been cults and many cults have been spawned from religion (whatever either of them are, if not the same)...

Yes... and? Link that to the thread please, which is about turning Science into a Religion.

Quote:

My first post on this thread may have been intended to be humorous, but there was a point... That all religions have a founding tenet, a profession of faith... Islam declares itself in its call to prayer, Christianity with the Apostles Creed, Buddhism with the four noble truths...

Are you suggesting that Science does not have a 'profession of faith' upon which all else is founded?

You would be wrong if you thought that.

Quote:

Seems if you want to turn science into a religion... Start with a profession of faith, tenet(s) or founding statement...

Like say... From Knowledge comes Truth...

Is that a good start?

No it is not. It would certainly make for a nice little mantra but that is all.

What about the axioms of mathematics, of which there can be no proofs, which science must concede to, in good faith, if it is to pursue knowledge?

Another ship to nowhere with Sappho carrying on like an acid spitting nun...

Maybe the friggin English language makes a distinct difference out of legal reasons for there to be a difference...

The next time you trawl up these bullshit threads of yours... Start with your own definition and go from there.

Otherwise piss off back to the other forum.

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Sappho

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Re: How to turn Science into a Religion.
Reply #25 - Nov 8^th, 2011 at 1:09am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 8^th, 2011 at 12:40am:

Sappho wrote on Nov 7^th, 2011 at 3:11pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 6^th, 2011 at 9:51pm:

Seems if you want to turn science into a religion... Start with a profession of faith, tenet(s) or founding statement...

Like say... From Knowledge comes Truth...

Is that a good start?

No it is not. It would certainly make for a nice little mantra but that is all.

What about the axioms of mathematics, of which there can be no proofs, which science must concede to, in good faith, if it is to pursue knowledge?

Another ship to nowhere with Sappho carrying on like an acid spitting nun...

Maybe the friggin English language makes a distinct difference out of legal reasons for there to be a difference...

The next time you trawl up these bullshit threads of yours... Start with your own definition and go from there.

Otherwise piss off back to the other forum.

LOL... I'll cop that sweet Helian... It's justified... although the last thing I am is a nun... far from it.

Now back to the topic... you say that religion is to cults as cults are to religion... so lets make that point a moot point and claim that we are seeking How to turn Science into a Religion or cult... problem solved yes?

You made a good point in that a religion/cult needs a point of faith. I have pointed out that there are many points of faith found in foundation mathematics.

One example of what I am referring to is the axiom n x 0 = 0. It cannot be proven. It must be taken on faith. It is because it is... is all we know of that axiom.

Would this kind of faith suffice for the transformation of science to religion/cult status? If not why not.

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muso

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Re: How to turn Science into a Religion.
Reply #26 - Nov 8^th, 2011 at 4:19pm

I heard a talk by a Rabbi on "The Spirit of Things" on ABC Radio National that covers some of this ground very well.

I'll post the transcript when it comes out. Robin Williams was also involved in that debate. He made the point that nobody could disprove the existence of God, but it was easier to prove the irrelevance of God if he did exist.

Quote:

Robyn Williams of Radio National's The Science Show shares his unmitigated disappointment in the God which totally failed his expectations. Rabbi Jeffrey Kamins, from Emanuel Synagogue, argues that the expectations are misplaced, and blame should squarely be placed on humanity not God. God in the 21st Century was an event organised by the Sydney Institute, and our edited recording includes audience questions and comments from the other panel members, Dr Shakira Hussein and Angela Shanahan.

Quote:

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/spiritofthings/stories/2011/3353297.htm

Some of the comments by Jeffrey Kamins were extremely perceptive, expecially the comments about us (and life) coming from one source - we all have this commonality, and whether you choose to call it God or not is largely a matter of semantics.

It's what I've been saying all along.

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« Last Edit: Nov 8^th, 2011 at 4:24pm by muso »

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Soren

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Re: How to turn Science into a Religion.
Reply #27 - Nov 24^th, 2011 at 8:50pm

If you want to test whether a form of knowledge (scientia) has any religious undercurrent to it, ask: what is the purpose of, reason for knowing that?

SInce this is an ethical question, by their answers ye shall know them.
If they say, there is no particular purpose to it, then they are nihilists and you can safely ignore them, for they are either lying or they are too stupid to bother with.
If they say it is to know how to live well, then they are religious - what binds us together (religio) is the common good.

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muso

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Re: How to turn Science into a Religion.
Reply #28 - Nov 24^th, 2011 at 10:50pm

Soren wrote on Nov 24^th, 2011 at 8:50pm:

If you want to test whether a form of knowledge (scientia) has any religious undercurrent to it, ask: what is the purpose of, reason for knowing that?

SInce this is an ethical question, by their answers ye shall know them.
If they say, there is no particular purpose to it, then they are nihilists and you can safely ignore them, for they are either lying or they are too stupid to bother with.
If they say it is to know how to live well, then they are religious - what binds us together (religio) is the common good.

I'll buy that. If the elaborate workings of the universe are a manifestation of (pantheism) or a result of a god (deism etc) then it would be a valid form of "worship" to improve our knowledge of "creation". Intuitively it seems much more effective that singing "Onward Christian Soldiers" out of key.

I've often said that all knowledge is sacred, and that's true whichever way you look at it - even from an existential viewpoint (knowledge springs from observation, which comes from perception - which is all we have).

Anyway, back to the Rabbi in my earlier post. The transcript is up now for bandwidth challenged. Some very clear thought there. The crux:

Quote:

At the core of Jewish teaching about God is that God is one, and that everything is interconnected and God creates and flows through all. If from a scientific perspective Stephen Hawking is correct and creation began with gravity, then we are still part of the whole. Naturalist John Muir put it this way, 'When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the universe. From a point of religion or humanism, we recognise the singular unity of existence, the interconnectivity of all life.'

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« Last Edit: Nov 24^th, 2011 at 10:55pm by muso »

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How to turn Science into a Religion.
Reply #29 - Nov 25^th, 2011 at 7:30am

Soren wrote on Nov 24^th, 2011 at 8:50pm:

If they say it is to know how to live well, then they are religious - what binds us together (religio) is the common good.

Notwithstanding your "the common good" red herring, by that narrow definition, many things qualify as a "religion" including professional codes of conduct, professional codes of ethics and arguably sport.

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