Australian Politics Forum - How to turn Science into a Religion.

muso

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Re: How to turn Science into a Religion.
Reply #30 - Nov 27^th, 2011 at 9:58am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 25^th, 2011 at 7:30am:

Soren wrote on Nov 24^th, 2011 at 8:50pm:

If they say it is to know how to live well, then they are religious - what binds us together (religio) is the common good.

Notwithstanding your "the common good" red herring, by that narrow definition, many things qualify as a "religion" including professional codes of conduct, professional codes of ethics and arguably sport.

Yes, Big deal. Religion is only defined by common convention anyway, and even then people will argue about whether something is or is not a religion. There is no rigorous way to define the term.

It's like the children's game. "You are a flutsch", and the partipants keep changing the definition as they go along. Flutsches don"t ..... No, but flutsches do .... so you are a flutsche.

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« Last Edit: Nov 27^th, 2011 at 10:04am by muso »

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Soren

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Re: How to turn Science into a Religion.
Reply #31 - Nov 30^th, 2011 at 11:26am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 25^th, 2011 at 7:30am:

Soren wrote on Nov 24^th, 2011 at 8:50pm:

If they say it is to know how to live well, then they are religious - what binds us together (religio) is the common good.

Notwithstanding your "the common good" red herring, by that narrow definition, many things qualify as a "religion" including professional codes of conduct, professional codes of ethics and arguably sport.

How to live well - sport doesn't cover all life, nor does any code of poractice, by definitiopn covering a narrow area of human activity.

Religion is about how to live well (ie how to die well). Sport it ain't.

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Sappho

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Re: How to turn Science into a Religion.
Reply #32 - Nov 30^th, 2011 at 2:21pm

Soren wrote on Nov 30^th, 2011 at 11:26am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 25^th, 2011 at 7:30am:

Soren wrote on Nov 24^th, 2011 at 8:50pm:

If they say it is to know how to live well, then they are religious - what binds us together (religio) is the common good.

Notwithstanding your "the common good" red herring, by that narrow definition, many things qualify as a "religion" including professional codes of conduct, professional codes of ethics and arguably sport.

How to live well - sport doesn't cover all life, nor does any code of poractice, by definitiopn covering a narrow area of human activity.

Religion is about how to live well (ie how to die well). Sport it ain't.

Science has quite a lot to say about how to live well and die well.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How to turn Science into a Religion.
Reply #33 - Dec 1^st, 2011 at 7:48am

Soren wrote on Nov 30^th, 2011 at 11:26am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 25^th, 2011 at 7:30am:

Soren wrote on Nov 24^th, 2011 at 8:50pm:

If they say it is to know how to live well, then they are religious - what binds us together (religio) is the common good.

Notwithstanding your "the common good" red herring, by that narrow definition, many things qualify as a "religion" including professional codes of conduct, professional codes of ethics and arguably sport.

How to live well - sport doesn't cover all life, nor does any code of poractice, by definitiopn covering a narrow area of human activity.

Religion is about how to live well (ie how to die well). Sport it ain't.

In this country where we punch 5 times above our weight in sport, there'd be millions here who'd say sport has done more for Australians living well (i.e. the health of the national psyche) than any "deo-centric" religion. And Codes of Conduct / Ethics have done more to ensure people behave well all week than "religion", which seems more concerned about behaving only on Sundays (or, at least, forgives you when you don't).

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muso

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Re: How to turn Science into a Religion.
Reply #34 - Dec 1^st, 2011 at 10:25am

Let's look at this code of ethics in some detail:

Quote:

Exodus 20
The Ten Commandments
1 And God spoke all these words:

2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

(1)

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

(2)

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

(Ok, ok, whatever - for a supreme being, you seem to lack focus. So to summarise - no little statues of gods, even if they were presents from Bali)

7 “You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

(3)

8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.

(4)

...

(Divine blethering omitted)

12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.

(5)

13 “You shall not murder.

(6)

14 “You shall not commit adultery.

(7)

15 “You shall not steal.

(8)

16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

(9)

17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

(10)

Now 1,2,3 and 4 basically say "respect the divine ego". 40% of the Judeo-Christian morality system is devoted to maintaining the divine ego.

5-9 are basically ok although you'd question the emphasis of some. 7 is conveniently ignored by a large proportion of Christians (particularly the born-agains)

10 - this idea of covetting is interesting. It means you should not get yourself worked up just because somebody else has more than you. Of course most people, including Christians do just that.

I omitted the divine blether about the sabbath, but it seems that in terms of verbage, allowing your cow to work on Sundays figures for about 2% of this system of morality.

So overall, it has its good points, but the "dead wood" seems to be overly distracting. I mean how many people actually have male and female servants and oxen, not to mention cows who do business on Sundays?

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« Last Edit: Dec 1^st, 2011 at 10:34am by muso »

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Soren

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Re: How to turn Science into a Religion.
Reply #35 - Dec 1^st, 2011 at 10:49am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 1^st, 2011 at 7:48am:

Soren wrote on Nov 30^th, 2011 at 11:26am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 25^th, 2011 at 7:30am:

Soren wrote on Nov 24^th, 2011 at 8:50pm:

If they say it is to know how to live well, then they are religious - what binds us together (religio) is the common good.

Notwithstanding your "the common good" red herring, by that narrow definition, many things qualify as a "religion" including professional codes of conduct, professional codes of ethics and arguably sport.

How to live well - sport doesn't cover all life, nor does any code of poractice, by definitiopn covering a narrow area of human activity.

Religion is about how to live well (ie how to die well). Sport it ain't.

In this country where we punch 5 times above our weight in sport, there'd be millions here who'd say sport has done more for Australians living well (i.e. the health of the national psyche) than any "deo-centric" religion. And Codes of Conduct / Ethics have done more to ensure people behave well all week than "religion", which seems more concerned about behaving only on Sundays (or, at least, forgives you when you don't).

Nonsense. Sport and codes of conduct did not provide the fundamental outlook and ways of organising society and human relationships.
A healthy body is a very good thing but is not enough if you live among other people. A truckload of code of conduct will not change a corrupt country.

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Soren

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Re: How to turn Science into a Religion.
Reply #36 - Dec 1^st, 2011 at 10:51am

Sappho wrote on Nov 30^th, 2011 at 2:21pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 30^th, 2011 at 11:26am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 25^th, 2011 at 7:30am:

Soren wrote on Nov 24^th, 2011 at 8:50pm:

If they say it is to know how to live well, then they are religious - what binds us together (religio) is the common good.

Notwithstanding your "the common good" red herring, by that narrow definition, many things qualify as a "religion" including professional codes of conduct, professional codes of ethics and arguably sport.

How to live well - sport doesn't cover all life, nor does any code of poractice, by definitiopn covering a narrow area of human activity.

Religion is about how to live well (ie how to die well). Sport it ain't.

Science has quite a lot to say about how to live well and die well.

Really? You mean 'social science' obviously, sociology and psychology and all that kind of ideology.

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Soren

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Re: How to turn Science into a Religion.
Reply #37 - Dec 1^st, 2011 at 11:00am

muso wrote on Dec 1^st, 2011 at 10:25am:

Now 1,2,3 and 4 basically say "respect the divine ego". 40% of the Judeo-Christian morality system is devoted to maintaining the divine ego.

5-9 are basically ok although you'd question the emphasis of some. 7 is conveniently ignored by a large proportion of Christians (particularly the born-agains)

10 - this idea of covetting is interesting. It means you should not get yourself worked up just because somebody else has more than you. Of course most people, including Christians do just that.

I omitted the divine blether about the sabbath, but it seems that in terms of verbage, allowing your cow to work on Sundays figures for about 2% of this system of morality.

So overall, it has its good points, but the "dead wood" seems to be overly distracting. I mean how many people actually have male and female servants and oxen, not to mention cows who do business on Sundays?

http://www.displaystatues.com/images/jet20set20tony20cow1906.jpg

Fascinating, Muso. You seem to be hopelessly stuck in the eternal last 5 minutes of intellectual fashion. A fashonista of ideas if there ever was one.

You will no doubt pretend that you cannot possibly understand Zen parables because there are no tigers in rural Qld.

A man traveling across a field encountered a tiger. He fled, the tiger after him. Coming to a precipice, he caught hold of the root of a wild vine and swung himself down over the edge. The tiger sniffed at him from above. Trembling, the man looked down to where, far below, another tiger was waiting to eat him. Only the vine sustained him.

Two mice, one white and one black, little by little started to gnaw away the vine. The man saw a luscious strawberry near him. Grasping the vine with one hand, he plucked the strawberry with the other. How sweet it tasted!

What blether! I mean how many people actually travel across field, not to mention encountering tigers and two mice, one black the other white, on any day of the week?

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muso

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Re: How to turn Science into a Religion.
Reply #38 - Dec 1^st, 2011 at 12:03pm

I'm not a Zen Buddhist, but since you mention it, its morality system is anything but anachronistic. Tell me what you find irrelevant or objectionable in this:

http://www.gardendigest.com/zen/ten.htm

My point was one of relevance. If a morality system is not relevant, then it either needs to be brought up to date or recognised as the 2nd Century BC zeitgeist that it is.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How to turn Science into a Religion.
Reply #39 - Dec 1^st, 2011 at 9:00pm

Soren wrote on Dec 1^st, 2011 at 10:49am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 1^st, 2011 at 7:48am:

Soren wrote on Nov 30^th, 2011 at 11:26am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 25^th, 2011 at 7:30am:

Soren wrote on Nov 24^th, 2011 at 8:50pm:

If they say it is to know how to live well, then they are religious - what binds us together (religio) is the common good.

Notwithstanding your "the common good" red herring, by that narrow definition, many things qualify as a "religion" including professional codes of conduct, professional codes of ethics and arguably sport.

How to live well - sport doesn't cover all life, nor does any code of poractice, by definitiopn covering a narrow area of human activity.

Religion is about how to live well (ie how to die well). Sport it ain't.

In this country where we punch 5 times above our weight in sport, there'd be millions here who'd say sport has done more for Australians living well (i.e. the health of the national psyche) than any "deo-centric" religion. And Codes of Conduct / Ethics have done more to ensure people behave well all week than "religion", which seems more concerned about behaving only on Sundays (or, at least, forgives you when you don't).

Nonsense. Sport and codes of conduct did not provide the fundamental outlook and ways of organising society and human relationships.

Well they do now.

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: How to turn Science into a Religion. Reply #40 - Dec 1^st, 2011 at 9:03pm Soren wrote on Dec 1^st, 2011 at 11:00am: What blether! I mean how many people actually travel across field, not to mention encountering tigers and two mice, one black the other white, on any day of the week? And yet the point is not lost.
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muso

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Re: How to turn Science into a Religion.
Reply #41 - Dec 2^nd, 2011 at 9:06am

Soren wrote on Dec 1^st, 2011 at 11:00am:

Fascinating, Muso. You seem to be hopelessly stuck in the eternal last 5 minutes of intellectual fashion. A fashonista of ideas if there ever was one.

I think the question of morality is important enough to make it as clear as possible. The Buddhists seem to manage that ok.

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bobbythefap1

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Re: How to turn Science into a Religion.
Reply #42 - Jan 29^th, 2012 at 9:35am

Science could never be a religion because it is never permanently held to one belief. If tomorrow there was hard evidence to say that a giant starfish created the universe then science would accept that.
Religion is permanently sticking to one idea and believing in it for no other reason then you were told so.
Science is a study of reality and therefore could be nothing like religion.

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nairbe

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Re: How to turn Science into a Religion.
Reply #43 - Mar 7^th, 2012 at 9:50pm

Sappho wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 11:40pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 11:22pm:

Sappho wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 1:27pm:

Just for fun and without loosing any of the integrity inherent in Science, and because why it is not a Religion has been done to death, we might look at how real Religion, as aposed to Cults, are created and how we might embue a little of that Religion into Science!

Read that twice and then tell me; Are you Interested?

Ok then. How shall we begin?

At the risk of being called names.....How do you define the differences between 'real' religion and a cult???

I'm not interested in childish name calling on the Ozpol forum... never have been... never will be.

Otherwise, I just did a quick google and found this site which has a very sound layman's summary of the differences between cults and religions.

By this summation religion is a cult and science already a religion.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49500 At my desk.	Re: How to turn Science into a Religion. Reply #44 - Dec 10^th, 2023 at 4:55pm *This Topic was moved here from Atheism* by freediver.**
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