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Grey

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Re: Roger Scruton
Reply #105 - Nov 21^st, 2011 at 1:20pm

Karnal wrote on Nov 21^st, 2011 at 12:14pm:

Bukowski is one of the best writers of the 20the century. One of the great modern writers. Why would anyone compare him to Dante, a modernist writer of his own time, who was the first sholarly writer to use the language of Italian?

This aesthetic abstraction called beauty is a crock. There is no hierarchy of values that transcend history - or ideology. There is, I think, a hierarchy to be found within genres and text types. After all, Bukowski is one of the best modernists. But a text can only be held up to its own ambitions.

I understand where Scruton is coming from, but his theory only works in opposition to the aesthetics of shock value. In itself, beauty is an abstraction, and like all abstractions, ideological.

Ideology, like beauty, is cunning. It always seems perfectly natural. This is why modern art refused to hide its artifice. I would question whether something can't be beautiful and show that it's completely fake at the same time.

Yes, my friends, we Pakis call this divine. Gud, after all, always reveals His hand.

I was shocked Karnal, at you being straight up, but couldnh't resist the last line could you. Very well put by the way. Shock alone is crud I agree. But coupled with intellectual intent shock has a place in art.

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Soren

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Re: Roger Scruton
Reply #106 - Nov 21^st, 2011 at 1:38pm

Karnal wrote on Nov 21^st, 2011 at 12:14pm:

Bukowski is one of the best writers of the 20the century. One of the great modern writers. Why would anyone compare him to Dante, a modernist writer of his own time, who was the first sholarly writer to use the language of Italian?

This aesthetic abstraction called beauty is a crock. There is no hierarchy of values that transcend history - or ideology. There is, I think, a hierarchy to be found within genres and text types. After all, Bukowski is one of the best modernists. But a text can only be held up to its own ambitions.

I understand where Scruton is coming from, but his theory only works in opposition to the aesthetics of shock value. In itself, beauty is an abstraction, and like all abstractions, ideological.

Ideology, like beauty, is cunning. It always seems perfectly natural. This is why modern art refused to hide its artifice. I would question whether something can't be beautiful and show that it's completely fake at the same time.

Yes, my friends, we Pakis call this divine. Gud, after all, always reveals His hand.

You like sh!t on the streets, so I am not surprised by this nonsense.

All you need to know about Bukowski is summed up here:

Bukowski fancied himself a poet, among other things, but he rarely spared his poems the attention he gave to fiction. Poetry became a scrap heap where lack of inspiration was no impediment. The poems often read like the diary of someone who once read Lunch Poems on a lunch break.

it has been a satisfactory night: I viewed an
excellent boxing match
earlier

powdered the cat for fleas

answered two letters
wrote four poems.

some nights I write ten poems
answer six letters.

Trivia can be its own reward, but after a little of this you want to drink a bottle of Draøno (if you want a lot of this, there are now five thousand pages to choose from). As a poet, Bukowski had the virtues of his prose, only less frequently:

“do you like me?” she asked.
“I wish,” I told her, “you wouldn’t wear all
that mascara, it makes you look like a god-
damned whore.”
“don’t you like whores?” she asked.
http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/From--ldquo-stinko-rdquo--to-Devo-4347

Have another swig of the Draino.

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Roger Scruton
Reply #107 - Nov 21^st, 2011 at 2:23pm

Quote:

grey wrote
Even an authoritarian conservative should be able to see that the fact the law was made only by men, and was selective and
oppressive of women, is of some relevance.

Laws were/are made to benefit, rather than oppress. But if we play the oppressive card, then given that it was only the few who ruled, then many men would have been oppressed as well.
Yet, I don’t go in for this reinterpretation of all history as oppressive. As I said before, that is a slavish reinterpretation of the past predicated on the illusion everyone ought to be free, and that this freedom is even possible. The problem is, with freedom comes responsibility. That’s a point all postmodernists, anarchists, feminists, and socialists like to ignore. Their view of freedom is purely negative and not positive. Negative freedom is a do what thou wilt freedom, but with positive freedom there comes responsibility. The responsibility to command oneself, to discipline oneself; only the few can do it and that’s why only the few ought to rule. The vast majority cannot command themselves and therefore need a higher authority to keep the order. The undisciplined need to be kept in line for the benefit of the community.

Quote:

grey wrote
Quaker communities perhaps?

I am sure they still had theological doctrine of some description despite their rejection of ritual.
Still, I find your lack of evidence to produce a society run free of any coercion telling.

Quote:

grey wrote
You're right I cannot conceive a situation absolutely free of coercion anymore than you can conceive being happy under
absolute authority, (you can't can you?).

The first part of your sentence is correct, you can’t conceive of a society free of coercion because it’s based on an illusion. But what is this “I can’t conceive of being happy under authority”?! Of course I can. Authority is necessary to maintain order. Without authority there is chaos, not even anarchy, simply chaos. Why hate what is necessary? The Stoics had this one wrapped up millennias ago; what is necessary is not worth worrying about.
Not only that, without authority we have no culture, no technology, no aspirations. Authority mainatins a neccesary order so productive things can happen.

Quote:

grey wrote
No the opposite is true. The Anarchist's is a joyful energy. You can see the anger in your writing, not in mine. What do
you know of LIFE? The control and domination of all things is what drives the Bolshevist and the Fascist and like frustrated children when things don't turn out the way you expect you get angry. Our art isn't angry, it's fun. We like to shake you up a bit and hope that something will shock you enough to make you actually think for yourself.

Thanks for the laugh. Authority and power always exist. There is never a vacuum. Even Foucault, the postmodern hyper-liberalist, knew we were slaves to history and there’s no escaping it. Rage all you like, authority will always exist regardless. The will to power, man’s drive to stamp his impression on the world, is man’s being. Even you anarchists are driven by the instinct to stamp your view on the world. But you basically have a hissy fit when someone else’s worldview overrides your own.

Even your hatred of Scruton’s conception of beauty and love of Emin’s art is a will to power over others. But you’re not honest enough to admit that.
Quote:

grey wrote
Tracey Emin puts a 'used condom'by her bed, but there's no cum in it, that would dry out, so she squirts in some silicon. You poor
regimented souls, you're so predictable. It IS funny, but also sad. Snap out of it, THINK, is this really how you want to live your life? Playing MONOPOLYtm? Looking at repro reality and saying 'isn't it beautiful'? Well really, whoodda thunk? Take a walk in the park at midnight, Tear up some red tap... Look, You've inspired me I have to go be creative.

Putting silicon in a franger is art? Any fool can do that. Just like that idiot who defecated in a tin and presented it as art. Your art is ugly.

Quote:

grey wrote
One last thing. Scientific method is all about observation. It's more about meditation than control. It doesn't matter how things turn out, you learn anyway.

I see you know little about scientific method. What’s this “it doesn’t matter how things turn out”? What’s the point of engaging in it in the first place then? It matters a great deal on “how things turn out,” in fact, this is the last, and most important, step in the scientific methodology. Acquiring results that are repeatable on a universal scale is the scientist’s dream, it is here that they have stamped a universal maxim on the world and then can be ascribed to that maxim. (Sounds a bit fascist, doesn’t it?) Ironically, this places scientists at complete odds with anarchists.

On another relevant point: Why didn’t you respond to my queries on why you take advantage of all the goods and services created under authority while hating that authority? You know, like transport, medicine, food, clothing, shelter, sewage works, computers etc. etc. etc. If you were honest you would discard all your comforts because they were created under authoritarian structures.

This is why I see anarchists as a bit of a joke. It’s kind of like an adolescent rage completely deviod of rationality.

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Postmodern Trendoid III Gold Member Offline Posts: 10266 Gender:	Re: Roger Scruton Reply #108 - Nov 21^st, 2011 at 2:24pm I am off overseas for 3 weeks so I am not sure when I can respond.
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Soren

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Re: Roger Scruton
Reply #109 - Nov 21^st, 2011 at 3:02pm

Grey wrote on Nov 19^th, 2011 at 6:51pm:

Art must be relevant to the times. The pastoral optimism of the enlightenment had to give way to the questioning rising panic of modernity. it was inevitable and artists wouldn't matter if they didn't take the vanguard position in the questioning of the prime subject, us.

And it is absolutely right that the 'how do we control this new power?' of modernity, became the 'we cannot, we must try anything and accept what works' of post-modernity.

And of course a lot of junk gets produced. It was ever thus. We must discern, and hope it's the cream that rises to the top of the milk and not the scum that rise to the top of the stew, as it is in the commercial world.

An awful lot of imperatives there from a supposed anarchist.

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Karnal

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Australian Politics

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Re: Roger Scruton
Reply #110 - Nov 21^st, 2011 at 4:07pm

Soren wrote on Nov 21^st, 2011 at 1:38pm:

Karnal wrote on Nov 21^st, 2011 at 12:14pm:

Bukowski is one of the best writers of the 20the century. One of the great modern writers. Why would anyone compare him to Dante, a modernist writer of his own time, who was the first sholarly writer to use the language of Italian?

This aesthetic abstraction called beauty is a crock. There is no hierarchy of values that transcend history - or ideology. There is, I think, a hierarchy to be found within genres and text types. After all, Bukowski is one of the best modernists. But a text can only be held up to its own ambitions.

I understand where Scruton is coming from, but his theory only works in opposition to the aesthetics of shock value. In itself, beauty is an abstraction, and like all abstractions, ideological.

Ideology, like beauty, is cunning. It always seems perfectly natural. This is why modern art refused to hide its artifice. I would question whether something can't be beautiful and show that it's completely fake at the same time.

Yes, my friends, we Pakis call this divine. Gud, after all, always reveals His hand.

You like sh!t on the streets, so I am not surprised by this nonsense.

All you need to know about Bukowski is summed up here:

Bukowski fancied himself a poet, among other things, but he rarely spared his poems the attention he gave to fiction. Poetry became a scrap heap where lack of inspiration was no impediment. The poems often read like the diary of someone who once read Lunch Poems on a lunch break.

it has been a satisfactory night: I viewed an
excellent boxing match
earlier

powdered the cat for fleas

answered two letters
wrote four poems.

some nights I write ten poems
answer six letters.

Trivia can be its own reward, but after a little of this you want to drink a bottle of Draøno (if you want a lot of this, there are now five thousand pages to choose from). As a poet, Bukowski had the virtues of his prose, only less frequently:

“do you like me?” she asked.
“I wish,” I told her, “you wouldn’t wear all
that mascara, it makes you look like a god-
damned whore.”
“don’t you like whores?” she asked.
http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/From--ldquo-stinko-rdquo--to-Devo-4347

Have another swig of the Draino.

Ah, my dear, like our frien Yadda, you prefer Googling to reading.

Everybody knows you don't read Bukowski for the poetry.

Try Tales of Ordinary Madness and enjoy the faecal tropes. You'll love it!

When you can pry yourself away from Paradise Lost, of course. In the original.

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Grey

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Re: Roger Scruton
Reply #111 - Nov 21^st, 2011 at 4:52pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Nov 21^st, 2011 at 2:23pm:

Laws were/are made to benefit, rather than oppress. But if we play the oppressive card, then given that it was only the few who ruled, then many men would have been oppressed as well.

you with the Taliban?

Quote:

Yet, I don’t go in for this reinterpretation of all history as oppressive. As I said before, that is a slavish reinterpretation of the past predicated on the illusion everyone ought to be free, and that this freedom is even possible. The problem is, with freedom comes responsibility. That’s a point all postmodernists, anarchists, feminists, and socialists like to ignore. Their view of freedom is purely negative and not positive. Negative freedom is a do what thou wilt freedom, but with positive freedom there comes responsibility. The responsibility to command oneself, to discipline oneself; only the few can do it and that’s why only the few ought to rule. The vast majority cannot command themselves and therefore need a higher authority to keep the order. The undisciplined need to be kept in line for the benefit of the community.

And with control comes irresponsibility

Quote:

grey wrote
You're right I cannot conceive a situation absolutely free of coercion anymore than you can conceive being happy under
absolute authority, (you can't can you?).

Quote:

The first part of your sentence is correct, you can’t conceive of a society free of coercion because it’s based on an illusion. But what is this “I can’t conceive of being happy under authority”?! Of course I can. Authority is necessary to maintain order. Without authority there is chaos, not even anarchy, simply chaos. Why hate what is necessary? The Stoics had this one wrapped up millennias ago; what is necessary is not worth worrying about.
Not only that, without authority we have no culture, no technology, no aspirations. Authority mainatins a neccesary order so productive things can happen.

The operative word was absolute slither. It's not 'codes of conduct' I have a problem with but the absolutism of totallitarian extremists.

Quote:

grey wrote
No the opposite is true. The Anarchist's is a joyful energy. You can see the anger in your writing, not in mine. What do
you know of LIFE? The control and domination of all things is what drives the Bolshevist and the Fascist and like frustrated children when things don't turn out the way you expect you get angry. Our art isn't angry, it's fun. We like to shake you up a bit and hope that something will shock you enough to make you actually think for yourself.

Quote:

Thanks for the laugh. Authority and power always exist. There is never a vacuum. Even Foucault, the postmodern hyper-liberalist, knew we were slaves to history and there’s no escaping it. Rage all you like, authority will always exist regardless. The will to power, man’s drive to stamp his impression on the world, is man’s being. Even you anarchists are driven by the instinct to stamp your view on the world. But you basically have a hissy fit when someone else’s worldview overrides your own.

I recognise your right to an opinion. I also recognise my right to an opinion. Your view may dominate the totalitarian present, but change is the only constant.

Quote:

Even your hatred of Scruton’s conception of beauty and love of Emin’s art is a will to power over others. But you’re not honest enough to admit that.

Quote:

grey wrote
Tracey Emin puts a 'used condom'by her bed, but there's no cum in it, that would dry out, so she squirts in some silicon. You poor
regimented souls, you're so predictable. It IS funny, but also sad. Snap out of it, THINK, is this really how you want to live your life? Playing MONOPOLYtm? Looking at repro reality and saying 'isn't it beautiful'? Well really, whoodda thunk? Take a walk in the park at midnight, Tear up some red tap... Look, You've inspired me I have to go be creative.

Quote:

Putting silicon in a franger is art? Any fool can do that. Just like that idiot who defecated in a tin and presented it as art. Your art is ugly.

I reject poo in a tin as art, especially my art. I also reject the notion that I would like to remove beauty from art. I would simply not reject everything else.

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Grey

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Re: Roger Scruton
Reply #112 - Nov 21^st, 2011 at 5:28pm

Quote:

grey wrote
One last thing. Scientific method is all about observation. It's more about meditation than control. It doesn't matter how things turn out, you learn anyway.

Quote:

Bolshie Destroyer-I see you know little about scientific method. What’s this “it doesn’t matter how things turn out”? What’s the point of engaging in it in the first place then? It matters a great deal on “how things turn out,” in fact, this is the last, and most important, step in the scientific methodology. Acquiring results that are repeatable on a universal scale is the scientist’s dream, it is here that they have stamped a universal maxim on the world and then can be ascribed to that maxim. (Sounds a bit fascist, doesn’t it?) Ironically, this places scientists at complete odds with anarchists.

No it doesn't sound like fascism. Fascists would not accept the results if they did not conform to their previous opinion. Fascists would hide burn and lie rather than admit a truth at odds wih their suppositions.

With Anarchists and scientists only the truth revealed matters. Only hierarchies are tied to their guess work.

Quote:

On another relevant point: Why didn’t you respond to my queries on why you take advantage of all the goods and services created under authority while hating that authority? You know, like transport, medicine, food, clothing, shelter, sewage works, computers etc. etc. etc. If you were honest you would discard all your comforts because they were created under authoritarian structures.

It was such a ludicrous thing to say I hought I'd save you embarressment. The advancement of human society is the result of the work of those who question. The stamping feet of authoritarians has ever been the bane of knowledge and enquiry.

Quote:

BD - This is why I see anarchists as a bit of a joke. It’s kind of like an adolescent rage completely deviod of rationality.

The joke is on you. Grin

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Grey

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Re: Roger Scruton
Reply #113 - Nov 21^st, 2011 at 5:36pm

Soren wrote on Nov 21^st, 2011 at 3:02pm:

Grey wrote on Nov 19^th, 2011 at 6:51pm:

Art must be relevant to the times. The pastoral optimism of the enlightenment had to give way to the questioning rising panic of modernity. it was inevitable and artists wouldn't matter if they didn't take the vanguard position in the questioning of the prime subject, us.

And it is absolutely right that the 'how do we control this new power?' of modernity, became the 'we cannot, we must try anything and accept what works' of post-modernity.

And of course a lot of junk gets produced. It was ever thus. We must discern, and hope it's the cream that rises to the top of the milk and not the scum that rise to the top of the stew, as it is in the commercial world.

An awful lot of imperatives there from a supposed anarchist.

Water WILL find its own level and artists WILL work with materials they know, in the context of the societies they know. These are not my commands Soren, it's just the way things are. Optimism WILL give rise to romantic art and Fascism WILL produce despair.

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"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb

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Soren

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Re: Roger Scruton
Reply #114 - Nov 21^st, 2011 at 6:22pm

Grey wrote on Nov 21^st, 2011 at 4:52pm:

It's not 'codes of conduct' I have a problem with but the absolutism of totallitarian extremists.

Like all pseuds, you hold these views fearlessly as long as you are living in a liberal democracy - I'm sorry, a western hegemonic fascist oppressive hell hole.

If you lived in North Korea or Syria or Iran - real hell holes - you would be sh!tting your pseudo-convictions into a can (unsigned, of course) and burying them in the dark of the night.

You are over 30 and an anarchist in AUstralia in 2011?? I say you are a sclerotic fantasist in grip of a nostalgia for your grandfather's dreams.

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« Last Edit: Nov 21^st, 2011 at 6:36pm by Soren »

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Roger Scruton Reply #115 - Nov 21^st, 2011 at 6:39pm Annie Anthrax wrote on Nov 19^th, 2011 at 7:20pm: You are a very stubborn man. I can't recall you ever backing down on anything - even when you're clearly wrong. It's fascinating. You're like another species.
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Annie Anthrax Gold Member Offline Take the plan, spin it sideways Posts: 7057 Gender:	Re: Roger Scruton Reply #116 - Nov 21^st, 2011 at 6:40pm Have Frederik and Mary left then? Better hope your ftayer are up to scratch, Grey.
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Annie Anthrax Gold Member Offline Take the plan, spin it sideways Posts: 7057 Gender:	Re: Roger Scruton Reply #117 - Nov 21^st, 2011 at 6:43pm
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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Roger Scruton Reply #118 - Nov 21^st, 2011 at 6:50pm A hen with borrowed feathers... http://mythfolklore.net/aesopica/milowinter/58.htm
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Annie Anthrax Gold Member Offline Take the plan, spin it sideways Posts: 7057 Gender:	Re: Roger Scruton Reply #119 - Nov 21^st, 2011 at 6:55pm
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