Australian Politics Forum - Cannabis, it's time to have the debate

...

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 23673
WA
Gender: male

Re: Cannabis, it's time to have the debate
Reply #15 - Nov 18^th, 2011 at 10:12am

qikvtec wrote on Nov 18^th, 2011 at 10:09am:

... wrote on Nov 18^th, 2011 at 10:06am:

If you're to have any chance of getting through to the 'antis' you've got to drop the 'harmless' line.

It might be effectively harmless to do every one in a while, but regular use is harmful - mostly to your level of motivation.

But even with 100% honesty, most of 'em probably still won't listen.

Where is the evidence of harm?

Well it's a little tough to do a study on motivation levels, but anyone who regularly uses it knows that they're not as motivated to do things. It's part of what makes it so fun.

You're really going to deny it? Really?????

Back to top

In the fullness of time...

IP Logged

...

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 23673
WA
Gender: male

Re: Cannabis, it's time to have the debate
Reply #16 - Nov 18^th, 2011 at 11:09am

Quote:

Cannabis and motivation
Does the ‘amotivational syndrome’ exist?
Some people are concerned that prolonged and heavy cannabis use can cause a person to become withdrawn, lethargic, apathetic and unmotivated, a collection of symptoms that has often been referred to as the ‘amotivational syndrome’.

Others claim that there is no such amotivational syndrome, claiming that a person who fits this description may in fact be showing signs of depression or chronic intoxication rather than any such syndrome.

The only thing we can be sure about is that research into the existence of the ‘amotivational syndrome’ remains inconclusive.

What does the research say?
The evidence that exists for the ‘amotivational syndrome’ has been mainly collected from
case-histories and observational reports of adult cannabis users.

These reports suggested that chronic, heavy cannabis users can experience a narrowing of interests and can become apathetic and unable to carry out complex long-term plans, endure frustration or concentrate for long periods of time. Others have been observed to become introverted or exhibit a childlike regression so that they are totally focused on the present at the expense of long-term goals.

While these reports represent the experience of some people, they fail to address how common the syndrome is or whether cannabis use in itself is the cause of these symptoms.

Controlled studies have not been able to prove the existence of the syndrome, yet clinical observations suggest that cannabis users experience a loss of ambition and impaired school and work performance. We do know that heavy cannabis use is linked to poorer educational outcomes and increased school drop-out rates. There is also evidence that the use of cannabis can impact on attention and memory.

At this point in time there has been no conclusive evidence to establish that heavy cannabis use causes an ‘amotivational syndrome’. The existence of such a syndrome remains uncertain because many cannabis users have other personal and lifestyle factors that may lead to a loss of motivation, such as unemployment, poverty, lower socioeconomic status or pre-existing personality or mental health issues.

It's a real phenomenon....but it shouldn't be banned on the basis that regular heavy use has (relatively minor) drawbacks - Regular heavy use of anything has drawbacks.

Back to top

In the fullness of time...

IP Logged

Equitist

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 9632
NSW

Re: Cannabis, it's time to have the debate
Reply #17 - Nov 18^th, 2011 at 11:16am

I reckon that this is a classic chicken-egg scenario, whereby persons with certain personality predispositions and/or attention and information processing deficits choose certain types of drugs - including for self-medication!

Persons who have displayed ADD and ADHD symptoms in their childhood are disproportionately represented amongst those who have addictions - especially to nicotine, alcohol, cannabis, caffeine and pokies (even sugar)!

Back to top

Lamenting the shift in the Australian psyche, away from the egalitarian ideal of the fair-go - and the rise of short-sighted pollies, who worship the 'Growth Fairy' and seek to divide and conquer!

IP Logged

Equitist

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 9632
NSW

Re: Cannabis, it's time to have the debate
Reply #18 - Nov 18^th, 2011 at 11:35am

Never tried it myself - but I've had plenty of opportunities because I have had several friends and family members and numerous acquaintances who have smoked it regularly.

My brother and a close friend have been heavy pot smokers over many years - both of whom are in the gifted range of IQ and had some of the predispositions I mentioned above. Both are sociable and harmless.

My brother is 'skinny as' and has always been a hard worker - he is a niche carpenter and builder who employs several other tradies and has always managed to get up at the crack of dawn to work 6 long days a week.

My friend is of Mensa IQ and was clinically obese when we met in high school - he has an oppositional personality and has never been overly committed to his work and studies.

Edited:

Oh, and I forgot to mention that he was raised in a devoutly Jewish household and is a staunch Liberal voter!

I believe that cannabis should be decriminalised and that its medicinal and other health potential ought to be fully investigated.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Nov 18^th, 2011 at 11:52am by Equitist »

Lamenting the shift in the Australian psyche, away from the egalitarian ideal of the fair-go - and the rise of short-sighted pollies, who worship the 'Growth Fairy' and seek to divide and conquer!

IP Logged

qikvtec

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 1846
Queensland

Re: Cannabis, it's time to have the debate
Reply #19 - Nov 18^th, 2011 at 11:38am

... wrote on Nov 18^th, 2011 at 10:12am:

qikvtec wrote on Nov 18^th, 2011 at 10:09am:

... wrote on Nov 18^th, 2011 at 10:06am:

If you're to have any chance of getting through to the 'antis' you've got to drop the 'harmless' line.

It might be effectively harmless to do every one in a while, but regular use is harmful - mostly to your level of motivation.

But even with 100% honesty, most of 'em probably still won't listen.

Where is the evidence of harm?

Well it's a little tough to do a study on motivation levels, but anyone who regularly uses it knows that they're not as motivated to do things. It's part of what makes it so fun.

You're really going to deny it? Really?????

That would depend on whether you have consumed Cannabis Indica or Cannabis Sativa and is in itself a symptom of the prohibition more than anything. With prohibition comes a lack of control over which variety is being consumed; most dealers would only be concerned with profit and have scant or no regard for quality, therefore a user, medicinal or recreational, are not offered the option to choose. A lack of motivation largely comes from the high concentration of CBD in Indica varieties, where as sativa, with it's high concentration of THC, is quite uplifting.

The known side effects are

Paranoia (ranging in severity and generally associated with short term use)
Appetite Stimulation
Dry Mouth - Aka Cotton Mouth or Pasties
Pupil Dilation
Mild Hypertension
In some cases mild hyperventilation
In some cases mild nausea (can be quite severe if significant quantities consumed)
Diarrhoea or Constipation
Short term memory loss (with consistent use)

Back to top

Politicians and Nappies need to be changed often and for the same reason.

One trouble with political jokes is that they often get elected.

Alan Joyce for PM

IP Logged

...

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 23673
WA
Gender: male

Re: Cannabis, it's time to have the debate
Reply #20 - Nov 18^th, 2011 at 11:38am

Equitist wrote on Nov 18^th, 2011 at 11:35am:

Never tried it myself - but I've had plenty of opportunities because I have had several friends and family members and numerous acquaintances who have smoked it regularly.

My brother and a close friend have been heavy pot smokers over many years - both of whom are in the gifted range of IQ and had some of the predispositions I mentioned above. Both are sociable and harmless.

My brother is 'skinny as' and has always been a hard worker - he is a niche carpenter and builder who employs several other tradies and has always managed to get up at the crack of dawn to work 6 long days a week.

My friend is of Mensa IQ and was clinically obese when we met in high school - he has an oppositional personality and has never been overly committed to his work and studies.

I believe that cannabis should be decriminalised and that its medicinal and other health potential ought to be fully investigated.

A high childhood IQ may be linked to subsequent illegal drug use, particularly among women, suggests research published online in the Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health.

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-11-high-childhood-iq-linked-subsequent.html

Back to top

In the fullness of time...

IP Logged

...

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 23673
WA
Gender: male

Re: Cannabis, it's time to have the debate
Reply #21 - Nov 18^th, 2011 at 11:45am

qikvtec wrote on Nov 18^th, 2011 at 11:38am:

... wrote on Nov 18^th, 2011 at 10:12am:

qikvtec wrote on Nov 18^th, 2011 at 10:09am:

... wrote on Nov 18^th, 2011 at 10:06am:

If you're to have any chance of getting through to the 'antis' you've got to drop the 'harmless' line.

It might be effectively harmless to do every one in a while, but regular use is harmful - mostly to your level of motivation.

But even with 100% honesty, most of 'em probably still won't listen.

Where is the evidence of harm?

Well it's a little tough to do a study on motivation levels, but anyone who regularly uses it knows that they're not as motivated to do things. It's part of what makes it so fun.

You're really going to deny it? Really?????

That would depend on whether you have consumed Cannabis Indica or Cannabis Sativa and is in itself a symptom of the prohibition more than anything. With prohibition comes a lack of control over which variety is being consumed; most dealers would only be concerned with profit and have scant or no regard for quality, therefore a user, medicinal or recreational, are not offered the option to choose. A lack of motivation largely comes from the high concentration of CBD in Indica varieties, where as sativa, with it's high concentration of THC, is quite uplifting.

The known side effects are

Paranoia (ranging in severity and generally associated with short term use)
Appetite Stimulation
Dry Mouth - Aka Cotton Mouth or Pasties
Pupil Dilation
Mild Hypertension
In some cases mild hyperventilation
In some cases mild nausea (can be quite severe if significant quantities consumed)
Diarrhoea or Constipation
Short term memory loss (with consistent use)

I didn't mean only while you're under the influence - I'm talking about a gradual, subtle, barely-perceptible-over-the-short-term sapping of the will to achieve. Going about your regular business is easy enough, but when it comes to taking on new challenges, I think it has an effect. Granted, this observation is based mainly on my own experience, but it's not an unusual or unique observation.

Back to top

In the fullness of time...

IP Logged

qikvtec

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 1846
Queensland

Re: Cannabis, it's time to have the debate
Reply #22 - Nov 18^th, 2011 at 11:48am

... wrote on Nov 18^th, 2011 at 11:45am:

qikvtec wrote on Nov 18^th, 2011 at 11:38am:

... wrote on Nov 18^th, 2011 at 10:12am:

qikvtec wrote on Nov 18^th, 2011 at 10:09am:

... wrote on Nov 18^th, 2011 at 10:06am:

If you're to have any chance of getting through to the 'antis' you've got to drop the 'harmless' line.

It might be effectively harmless to do every one in a while, but regular use is harmful - mostly to your level of motivation.

But even with 100% honesty, most of 'em probably still won't listen.

Where is the evidence of harm?

Well it's a little tough to do a study on motivation levels, but anyone who regularly uses it knows that they're not as motivated to do things. It's part of what makes it so fun.

You're really going to deny it? Really?????

That would depend on whether you have consumed Cannabis Indica or Cannabis Sativa and is in itself a symptom of the prohibition more than anything. With prohibition comes a lack of control over which variety is being consumed; most dealers would only be concerned with profit and have scant or no regard for quality, therefore a user, medicinal or recreational, are not offered the option to choose. A lack of motivation largely comes from the high concentration of CBD in Indica varieties, where as sativa, with it's high concentration of THC, is quite uplifting.

The known side effects are

Paranoia (ranging in severity and generally associated with short term use)
Appetite Stimulation
Dry Mouth - Aka Cotton Mouth or Pasties
Pupil Dilation
Mild Hypertension
In some cases mild hyperventilation
In some cases mild nausea (can be quite severe if significant quantities consumed)
Diarrhoea or Constipation
Short term memory loss (with consistent use)

I didn't mean only while you're under the influence - I'm talking about a gradual, subtle, barely-perceptible-over-the-short-term sapping of the will to achieve. Going about your regular business is easy enough, but when it comes to taking on new challenges, I think it has an effect. Granted, this observation is based mainly on my own experience, but it's not an unusual or unique observation.

No it's not an unusual observation, but not entirely common all the same, and certainly not reason enough to carry on an un-winnable, frightfully expensive and fruitless war, which in itself exacerbates, not relieves, the problem.

I sit through countless meetings at the end of which I've nearly lost the will to live; I'd be happy for you to criminalise some of them. Wink

Back to top

« Last Edit: Nov 18^th, 2011 at 12:25pm by qikvtec »

Politicians and Nappies need to be changed often and for the same reason.

One trouble with political jokes is that they often get elected.

Alan Joyce for PM

IP Logged

Equitist

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 9632
NSW

Re: Cannabis, it's time to have the debate
Reply #23 - Nov 18^th, 2011 at 11:49am

... wrote on Nov 18^th, 2011 at 11:38am:

Equitist wrote on Nov 18^th, 2011 at 11:35am:

Never tried it myself - but I've had plenty of opportunities because I have had several friends and family members and numerous acquaintances who have smoked it regularly.

My brother and a close friend have been heavy pot smokers over many years - both of whom are in the gifted range of IQ and had some of the predispositions I mentioned above. Both are sociable and harmless.

My brother is 'skinny as' and has always been a hard worker - he is a niche carpenter and builder who employs several other tradies and has always managed to get up at the crack of dawn to work 6 long days a week.

My friend is of Mensa IQ and was clinically obese when we met in high school - he has an oppositional personality and has never been overly committed to his work and studies.

I believe that cannabis should be decriminalised and that its medicinal and other health potential ought to be fully investigated.

A high childhood IQ may be linked to subsequent illegal drug use, particularly among women, suggests research published online in the Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health.

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-11-high-childhood-iq-linked-subsequent.html

Interesting stuff, Wes - especially since it was a large longitudinal study!

It is well-documented that a higher IQ often leads to greater dissatisfaction in life - and high rates of anxiety and depression...

Back to top

Lamenting the shift in the Australian psyche, away from the egalitarian ideal of the fair-go - and the rise of short-sighted pollies, who worship the 'Growth Fairy' and seek to divide and conquer!

IP Logged

...

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 23673
WA
Gender: male

Re: Cannabis, it's time to have the debate
Reply #24 - Nov 18^th, 2011 at 11:52am

Oh I agree, I don't think it should be illegal. The only concern I have is that should it be legalised, the government will no doubt want a hefty slice of revenue, much like they do with cigarettes.
This doesn't bode well for anyone having the gall to grow their own - what attracts a minor penalty under prohibition will be termed 'tax evasion' and attract a much stiffer penalty. Go figure.

Back to top

In the fullness of time...

IP Logged

Annie Anthrax Gold Member Offline Take the plan, spin it sideways Posts: 7057 Gender:	Re: Cannabis, it's time to have the debate Reply #25 - Nov 18^th, 2011 at 12:08pm I'd vote yes for legalising cannabis if it ever comes to that (which I doubt).
Back to top	I can't do this, but I'm doing it anyway. IP Logged

qikvtec Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1846 Queensland	Re: Cannabis, it's time to have the debate Reply #26 - Nov 18^th, 2011 at 1:15pm Annie Anthrax wrote on Nov 18^th, 2011 at 12:08pm: I'd vote yes for legalising cannabis if it ever comes to that (which I doubt). I think, legalising should be the end game but it's a very long way off, decriminalised with a licensed medical use system would be the best I would hope for in the short term.
Back to top	Politicians and Nappies need to be changed often and for the same reason. One trouble with political jokes is that they often get elected. Alan Joyce for PM IP Logged

qikvtec

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 1846
Queensland

Re: Cannabis, it's time to have the debate
Reply #27 - Nov 18^th, 2011 at 1:17pm

... wrote on Nov 18^th, 2011 at 11:52am:

Oh I agree, I don't think it should be illegal. The only concern I have is that should it be legalised, the government will no doubt want a hefty slice of revenue, much like they do with cigarettes.
This doesn't bode well for anyone having the gall to grow their own - what attracts a minor penalty under prohibition will be termed 'tax evasion' and attract a much stiffer penalty. Go figure.

As a legal product I think it should probably be treated in the same way as alcohol would be taxed, nil tax for non commercial quantities, licensed and regulated production and distribution systems for the commercial operators.

Back to top

Politicians and Nappies need to be changed often and for the same reason.

One trouble with political jokes is that they often get elected.

Alan Joyce for PM

IP Logged

cods

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 88048

Re: Cannabis, it's time to have the debate
Reply #28 - Nov 18^th, 2011 at 5:51pm

qikvtec wrote on Nov 18^th, 2011 at 1:17pm:

... wrote on Nov 18^th, 2011 at 11:52am:

Oh I agree, I don't think it should be illegal. The only concern I have is that should it be legalised, the government will no doubt want a hefty slice of revenue, much like they do with cigarettes.
This doesn't bode well for anyone having the gall to grow their own - what attracts a minor penalty under prohibition will be termed 'tax evasion' and attract a much stiffer penalty. Go figure.

As a legal product I think it should probably be treated in the same way as alcohol would be taxed, nil tax for non commercial quantities, licensed and regulated production and distribution systems for the commercial operators.

wasnt it Amsterdam that had all those cafes where smoking was legal, very cool and advanced.. I read somewhere where they are shutting down..and only a few left for the local pot heads..

I am sure you enjoy what you do gik and hopefully is doesnt have any bad effects on your health..but my grandson comes from an addictive family..he is now 15... he has a cousin in jail for a hold up in relation to drug addiction.his greatgrandfather died of alcolism. his grandfather is an alcoholic.. his uncle that lives with his nan and grandfather is an alcoholic.
I am terrified that he will be one of those addicted from day one...to anything thats addictive..

words from his cousin.. whos doin g time... was he started off on pot.and from there it went steadily downhill..

you dont seem to think this can lead to more devastating things..

when you talk like this I shake my head as I see the problems we have now with grog and pokermachines...everyone trying to undo whats been done..and you think legalising this is a good thing..

treating another problem like we do alcohol!!!!!... ask the Salvation Army about alcohol abd what it is doing to society.

I have already had the abuse screamed t me claiming I know nothing about this...but I have eyes and I see a young man in jail for 5 years all thanks to drugs and his "mates" that got him sucked in again.

Back to top

IP Logged

... Gold Member Offline Posts: 23673 WA Gender:	Re: Cannabis, it's time to have the debate Reply #29 - Nov 18^th, 2011 at 5:55pm Quote: words from his cousin.. whos doin g time... was he started off on pot.and from there it went steadily downhill.. I'd bet the house he really 'started' on alcohol.
Back to top	In the fullness of time... IP Logged