Australian Politics Forum - Islam is the way forward

Annie Anthrax

Gold Member

Offline

Take the plan, spin it
sideways

Posts: 7057
Gender: female

Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #90 - Jan 4^th, 2012 at 12:48pm

lol. No.

Often the up front dowry money is given in the form of gold. This could be cultural, though. Ever been to a Lebanese wedding? They're quite an affair - the gold is placed on the bride during the reception. It's sort of security for her.

Those weddings aren't halal, by the way. Mixing of the sexes and the music and stuff, but everyone I know does it like that.

Back to top

I can't do this, but I'm doing it anyway.

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #91 - Jan 4^th, 2012 at 12:57pm

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jan 4^th, 2012 at 11:49am:

Because in Islam it is a man's duty to support his wife financially, daughters get a half of what their brothers do. Her brother has to support his family, while she is in turn support by her husband. A man can't touch any money his wife inherits unless she gives it to him freely.

Women are further safeguarded by dowry payments and money that they get if they're ever divorced. I forget what that's called. The money is guaranteed up front in the marriage contract. For example, my old neighbour was given 10k at the outset with a guarantee of 100k should her husband ever divorce her.

How is this relevant in Australia (or England or France, or any other western liberal democracy), in 2012? In our legal system, marriage is between a man and a woman who are equal before the law.

Back to top

IP Logged

Annie Anthrax

Gold Member

Offline

Take the plan, spin it
sideways

Posts: 7057
Gender: female

Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #92 - Jan 4^th, 2012 at 1:06pm

Soren wrote on Jan 4^th, 2012 at 12:57pm:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jan 4^th, 2012 at 11:49am:

Because in Islam it is a man's duty to support his wife financially, daughters get a half of what their brothers do. Her brother has to support his family, while she is in turn support by her husband. A man can't touch any money his wife inherits unless she gives it to him freely.

Women are further safeguarded by dowry payments and money that they get if they're ever divorced. I forget what that's called. The money is guaranteed up front in the marriage contract. For example, my old neighbour was given 10k at the outset with a guarantee of 100k should her husband ever divorce her.

How is this relevant in Australia (or England or France, or any other western liberal democracy), in 2012? In our legal system, marriage is between a man and a woman who are equal before the law.

Am I advocating Shariah law here? It was a system that worked very well for women through history. It gave women security.

What is relevant is that now people have a choice. If the man works and the woman stays at home to look after the kids, that's fine. If she wants to work and contribute to the household, good for her. The only difference between Muslims and others is that Muslim women can chose whether to keep her money to safeguard her future or contribute it to the household.

Back to top

I can't do this, but I'm doing it anyway.

IP Logged

perceptions_now

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 11694
Perth WA
Gender: male

Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #93 - Jan 4^th, 2012 at 1:45pm

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jan 4^th, 2012 at 1:06pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 4^th, 2012 at 12:57pm:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jan 4^th, 2012 at 11:49am:

Because in Islam it is a man's duty to support his wife financially, daughters get a half of what their brothers do. Her brother has to support his family, while she is in turn support by her husband. A man can't touch any money his wife inherits unless she gives it to him freely.

Women are further safeguarded by dowry payments and money that they get if they're ever divorced. I forget what that's called. The money is guaranteed up front in the marriage contract. For example, my old neighbour was given 10k at the outset with a guarantee of 100k should her husband ever divorce her.

How is this relevant in Australia (or England or France, or any other western liberal democracy), in 2012? In our legal system, marriage is between a man and a woman who are equal before the law.

Am I advocating Shariah law here? It was a system that worked very well for women through history. It gave women security.

What is relevant is that now people have a choice. If the man works and the woman stays at home to look after the kids, that's fine. If she wants to work and contribute to the household, good for her. The only difference between Muslims and others is that Muslim women can chose whether to keep her money to safeguard her future or contribute it to the household.

Sorry, I can't agree with you there!

Back to top

IP Logged

Annie Anthrax Gold Member Offline Take the plan, spin it sideways Posts: 7057 Gender:	Re: Islam is the way forward Reply #94 - Jan 4^th, 2012 at 3:29pm Why not?
Back to top	I can't do this, but I'm doing it anyway. IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49410 At my desk.	Re: Islam is the way forward Reply #95 - Jan 4^th, 2012 at 4:27pm I think women are treated equally before the law here, so technically they can't. Or at least, the right has no legal protection.
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 21894
A cat with a view

Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #96 - Jan 4^th, 2012 at 4:50pm

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jan 4^th, 2012 at 9:41am:

The testimony of a non-Muslim is not accepted in a Shariah court because the most important guarantee of integrity and honesty is fear of Allah. This is not to say that non-Muslims do not have integrity or are dishonest, but that.....

......in the case where a person is on trial, then the fear of Allah is important (particularly considering some of the punishments involved).

This is the truth, no going back. I called my local Imam to be sure and they are his words, more or less.

This is the case for criminal matters, not sure on civil matters.

Annie Anthrax,

Thank you, at least for your own candour above.

+++

'Virtue' and 'truth' to moslems, imo, is whatever moslems say that 'virtue' and 'truth' is.

i.e.
By looking at how moslems behave in the world, we can know that, to moslems, WHATEVER, serves ISLAM's interests, is deemed to be 'virtuous'.

e.g. #1,

Google;
Carnita Matthews is not a liar, her lawyer

e.g. #2,
The Hadith admonishes all moslems....

"Be honest because honesty leads to goodness, and goodness leads to Paradise. Beware of falsehood because it leads to immorality, and immorality leads to Hell."

Google it.

And yet, we find the ISLAMIC principle of Taqiyya [lying, to serve Allah/ISLAM's 'promotion']....

“Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish it through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible..., and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory. ...One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie…”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya

Google,
"Speaking is a means to achieve objectives."

Google,
example muslim lying

Lying in Islam
By Abdullah Al Araby
Like most religions, Islam in general, forbids lying. The Quran says, "Truly Allah guides not one who transgresses and lies." Surah 40:28. In the Hadith, Mohammed was also quoted as saying, "Be honest because honesty leads to goodness, and goodness leads to Paradise. Beware of falsehood because it leads to immorality, and immorality leads to Hell."
However, unlike most religions, within Islam there are certain provisions under which lying is not simply tolerated, but actually encouraged. The book "The spirit of Islam," by the Muslim scholar, Afif A. Tabbarah was written to promote Islam. On page 247, Tabbarah stated: "Lying is not always bad, to be sure; there are times when telling a lie is more profitable and better for the general welfare, and for the settlement of conciliation among people, than telling the truth. To this effect, the Prophet says: 'He is not a false person who (through lies) settles conciliation among people, supports good or says what is good."

http://www.islamreview.com/articles/lying.shtml

ISLAM is a philosophy which at the same time, seems to both condemn and then encourage falsehood to be used by moslems.

Why is that so ???

Is it because moslems realise that, "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives."

???

No matter how much moslems may deny it, lying is 'sanctified' in ISLAM, whenever lying [deceit] is advantageous to [the promotion and the spread of] ISLAM.

e.g. #3,

Read the Hadith, in the Hadith, Muhammad reveals his 'nature'.

He reveals himself to be an oath breaker, and 'a man for all seasons'.

".....By Allah, and Allah willing, if I take an oath and later find something else better than that. then I do what is better and expiate my oath.' " "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #007.067.427

"......If you ever take an oath to do something and later on you find that something else is better, then you should expiate your oath and do what is better." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #009.089.260

In the following Hadith, Mohammed himself sets the example, for the use of deceit,

"Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #005.059.369

That account, was of a straight out *political* assassination, organised by Mohammed, the 'prophet' of ISLAM!

Q.
But what about the argument that could be made;
That Mohammed was at war with Allah's enemy [Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf], so the deceit is OK ???

A.
Yes. And moslems today, the candid ones, will admit that ISLAM [and therefore ALL 'real' moslems] are engaged in a 'justified' never ending warfare with ALL OF UNBELIEVING MANKIND. [e.g. confirmed in the Koran 9.29] Therefore, moslems justify their deceit, lies, and violence, towards Western peoples [ALL non-moslems].

"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11

Mohammed's advice to moslems, upon another assassination quest for Allah.....

Ishaq:365, Tabari VII:94
Google;
"You are absolved, free to say whatever you must."

n.b.
The Koran states...... that Mohammed is a wonderful example for all muslims to follow [his deceit?].
.....[that veracity of such a self-aggrandising statement, seeing that Mohammed himself received this 'revelation' from Allah, about his own virtue, is worth considering].

"Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah. "
Koran 33.021iMy advice to moslems is to consider;
If you yourself follow Mohammed's example, in this life,
.....then when your life is over, surely you can also expect go to that same place, where Muhammad is?

Allah's paradise ???

Remember, that Mohammed was a confirmed liar, and murderer.

ISLAMIC texts, attest to that fact.

And here is the question i always like to ask of moslems about that assassination account in the Hadith [above]....

If Allah is an all powerful god, how could a mere man, Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf, have *hurt* Allah, who is an all powerful god
.....[as was stated by Mohammed in the Hadith]?

Google;
mohammed liar

Back to top

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

Annie Anthrax Gold Member Offline Take the plan, spin it sideways Posts: 7057 Gender:	Re: Islam is the way forward Reply #97 - Jan 4^th, 2012 at 10:09pm freediver wrote on Jan 4^th, 2012 at 4:27pm: I think women are treated equally before the law here, so technically they can't. Or at least, the right has no legal protection. Are you referring to the right of the wife to keep her income while her husband supports her?
Back to top	I can't do this, but I'm doing it anyway. IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49410 At my desk.	Re: Islam is the way forward Reply #98 - Jan 4^th, 2012 at 10:35pm That sort of thing, yes.
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

Annie Anthrax Gold Member Offline Take the plan, spin it sideways Posts: 7057 Gender:	Re: Islam is the way forward Reply #99 - Jan 4^th, 2012 at 10:42pm It only works smoothly if everyone is agreeable. And women can contribute if they want to (and most would) - it's just not compulsory for them.
Back to top	I can't do this, but I'm doing it anyway. IP Logged

Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: Islam is the way forward Reply #100 - Jan 5^th, 2012 at 9:43pm Annie Anthrax wrote on Jan 4^th, 2012 at 10:42pm: It only works smoothly if everyone is agreeable. And women can contribute if they want to (and most would) - it's just not compulsory for them. And how would the adoption of Islam be a progressive step for women to take in our society? ie be 'the way forwards'.
Back to top	"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb IP Logged

Annie Anthrax Gold Member Offline Take the plan, spin it sideways Posts: 7057 Gender:	Re: Islam is the way forward Reply #101 - Jan 6^th, 2012 at 8:19am Ask Yvonne Ridley I only have a couple of minutes, and I'd like to answer that properly so I'll come back to it when I get home later, Grey.
Back to top	I can't do this, but I'm doing it anyway. IP Logged

Grey

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 5341
Gender: male

Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #102 - Jan 6^th, 2012 at 11:23am

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jan 6^th, 2012 at 8:19am:

Ask Yvonne Ridley Wink

I only have a couple of minutes, and I'd like to answer that properly so I'll come back to it when I get home later, Grey.

While you're at it you might like to comment on the way things are 'moving forwards' in Baghdad. Good old time religion, just blisses everybody out don't it? Or is it just cities begining with B, Belfast, Beiruit, Baghdad? Nope, that doesn't account for Sarajevo, Kabal or Cairo; never mind I guess god'll work out who his chosen are eventually.

Back to top

"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb

IP Logged

abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Islam is the way forward Reply #103 - Jan 7^th, 2012 at 11:44am Do you mean the same Baghdad that's spent 20 years under U.S siege, sanctions and sorties? and the last 9 or so years under a so called U.S "nation building" project?
Back to top	IP Logged

Grey

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 5341
Gender: male

Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #104 - Jan 7^th, 2012 at 7:04pm

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 7^th, 2012 at 11:44am:

Do you mean the same Baghdad that's spent 20 years under U.S siege, sanctions and sorties? and the last 9 or so years under a so called U.S "nation building" project?

Yep that's the one, moving forwards with Islam now those pesky foreigners have left. At least the US has learned why Saddam was the only type to keep things stable. But there was a few other cities in my post with similar difficulties Rashid. It takes religion ton turn people against themselves after a resounding win against an Imperium. Whodda thunk what a shambles Afghanistan would turn into after defeating the Russians. Vietnam never experienced that problem after waving goodbye to the coalition did it?

Back to top

"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb

IP Logged