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Pretext for war with Iran (Read 3931 times)
Grey
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Re: Pretext for war with Iran
Reply #30 - Nov 30th, 2011 at 12:41pm
 
My feeling is that this incident is the last thing anybody in government in the West wants. They want out of Afghanistan because they can't afford it.

On the other hand destabalising is what the CIA do. I have no doubt that they are behind the uprisings across the arab world, especially Syria. That's not to say that the people in Egypt and Tunisia needed much encouragement. But I don't believe in 'spontaneous revolution', revolutions require planning and capital expenditure. There's evidence of a deal of American involvement in the orange revolutions in the Ukraine and other ex USSR satellites and before the Tiananmen student protests.

The course of events in Syria looks a lot like a lot of pushing is going on. That said I think the Al-Assad regime has been, (apart from muderous) silly. If they'd called elections from the outet the likelehood is that they'd have won. And even if they'd lost they'd have been back in after a term in opposition. But of course dictators dictate, like the CIA, they're stuck in the rut of 'that's the way its always been done around here'.

Which is probably what's going on in Iran, a big brouhaha that fizzles, maybe some deals and concessions made behind the scenes.
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Pretext for war with Iran
Reply #31 - Nov 30th, 2011 at 12:44pm
 
Grey wrote on Nov 30th, 2011 at 12:41pm:
My feeling is that this incident is the last thing anybody in government in the West wants. They want out of Afghanistan because they can't afford it.

On the other hand destabalising is what the CIA do. I have no doubt that they are behind the uprisings across the arab world, especially Syria. That's not to say that the people in Egypt and Tunisia needed much encouragement. But I don't believe in 'spontaneous revolution', revolutions require planning and capital expenditure. There's evidence of a deal of American involvement in the orange revolutions in the Ukraine and other ex USSR satellites and before the Tiananmen student protests.

The course of events in Syria looks a lot like a lot of pushing is going on. That said I think the Al-Assad regime has been, (apart from muderous) silly. If they'd called elections from the outet the likelehood is that they'd have won. And even if they'd lost they'd have been back in after a term in opposition. But of course dictators dictate, like the CIA, they're stuck in the rut of 'that's the way its always been done around here'.

Which is probably what's going on in Iran, a big brouhaha that fizzles, maybe some deals and concessions made behind the scenes.



Seriously, wy do so many people assume that the CIA (and/or America) is behind everything????

They're really not that good
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Re: Pretext for war with Iran
Reply #32 - Nov 30th, 2011 at 12:49pm
 
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But I don't believe in 'spontaneous revolution', revolutions require planning and capital expenditure. There's evidence of a deal of American involvement in the orange revolutions in the Ukraine and other ex USSR satellites and before the Tiananmen student protests.


It's way different, Grey.

The revolutions were sparked by people using social media to get the word out about terrible injustices. Khaled Said's murder by the police because of his evidence of their corruption, and the resulting 'We Are all Khaled Said' movement were explosive.

The same with Bouazizi in Tunisia. It was the president's visit to the boy's bedside that started the main protest, if I remember correctly. It was certainly his self-immolation that got people going.

There was no Facebook or Twitter for Tiananmen Square.

But even that one dude - the anonymous guy who stood in front of the tank - was enough to shake the world up.
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Re: Pretext for war with Iran
Reply #33 - Nov 30th, 2011 at 1:09pm
 
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My feeling is that this incident is the last thing anybody in government in the West wants. They want out of Afghanistan because they can't afford it.



True, but it is what Israel wants.  And with elections in the US coming up, they'll all be chasing the jewish dollar.
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Grey
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Re: Pretext for war with Iran
Reply #34 - Nov 30th, 2011 at 1:51pm
 
gizmo_2655 wrote on Nov 30th, 2011 at 12:44pm:
Grey wrote on Nov 30th, 2011 at 12:41pm:
My feeling is that this incident is the last thing anybody in government in the West wants. They want out of Afghanistan because they can't afford it.

On the other hand destabalising is what the CIA do. I have no doubt that they are behind the uprisings across the arab world, especially Syria. That's not to say that the people in Egypt and Tunisia needed much encouragement. But I don't believe in 'spontaneous revolution', revolutions require planning and capital expenditure. There's evidence of a deal of American involvement in the orange revolutions in the Ukraine and other ex USSR satellites and before the Tiananmen student protests.

The course of events in Syria looks a lot like a lot of pushing is going on. That said I think the Al-Assad regime has been, (apart from muderous) silly. If they'd called elections from the outet the likelehood is that they'd have won. And even if they'd lost they'd have been back in after a term in opposition. But of course dictators dictate, like the CIA, they're stuck in the rut of 'that's the way its always been done around here'.

Which is probably what's going on in Iran, a big brouhaha that fizzles, maybe some deals and concessions made behind the scenes.



Seriously, wy do so many people assume that the CIA (and/or America) is behind everything????

They're really not that good


There's not much difference between factions of power operating in the USA and those of Pakistan. The desired outcome for the civilian government may be quite different to the desires of the military industrial complex; though at times they coincide. The USA has a pathological fear of any form of socialism.

Socialisms strongest base is in the Spanish speaking world, a world that shares the American continent. An effective and successful South America is a situation the USA finds intolerable. Learning from the experience of the British Empire it judged dominance as more achievable by keeping potential rivals weak than by encorporating them into an empire. Keeping rivals fighting each other is a lot more effective than fighting them, especially when you are the supplyer of arms to both sides. So fermenting revolution is core CIA business.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions

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Re: Pretext for war with Iran
Reply #35 - Nov 30th, 2011 at 2:10pm
 
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Nov 30th, 2011 at 12:20pm:
Or South Koreans who have watched several Taepong Dong missiles fired into the sea in 'exercises'.

Or how about to Israelis who during Gulf War I, when Israel was a neutral country, sawl Haifa and Tel Aviv targetted by missile fire.

Yeah, no danger at all eh?


I ask you again Hicks. What would the US do if some religious crackpots knocked on the Presidents door and said they want their land back in the middle of NY just because it said in some old book written thousands of years ago that  they used to live there ??

What do you think the reaction would be ?? Same as the arabs eh Wink
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Re: Pretext for war with Iran
Reply #36 - Nov 30th, 2011 at 2:53pm
 
Grey wrote on Nov 30th, 2011 at 1:51pm:
gizmo_2655 wrote on Nov 30th, 2011 at 12:44pm:
Grey wrote on Nov 30th, 2011 at 12:41pm:
My feeling is that this incident is the last thing anybody in government in the West wants. They want out of Afghanistan because they can't afford it.

On the other hand destabalising is what the CIA do. I have no doubt that they are behind the uprisings across the arab world, especially Syria. That's not to say that the people in Egypt and Tunisia needed much encouragement. But I don't believe in 'spontaneous revolution', revolutions require planning and capital expenditure. There's evidence of a deal of American involvement in the orange revolutions in the Ukraine and other ex USSR satellites and before the Tiananmen student protests.

The course of events in Syria looks a lot like a lot of pushing is going on. That said I think the Al-Assad regime has been, (apart from muderous) silly. If they'd called elections from the outet the likelehood is that they'd have won. And even if they'd lost they'd have been back in after a term in opposition. But of course dictators dictate, like the CIA, they're stuck in the rut of 'that's the way its always been done around here'.

Which is probably what's going on in Iran, a big brouhaha that fizzles, maybe some deals and concessions made behind the scenes.



Seriously, wy do so many people assume that the CIA (and/or America) is behind everything????

They're really not that good


There's not much difference between factions of power operating in the USA and those of Pakistan. The desired outcome for the civilian government may be quite different to the desires of the military industrial complex; though at times they coincide. The USA has a pathological fear of any form of socialism.

Socialisms strongest base is in the Spanish speaking world, a world that shares the American continent. An effective and successful South America is a situation the USA finds intolerable. Learning from the experience of the British Empire it judged dominance as more achievable by keeping potential rivals weak than by encorporating them into an empire. Keeping rivals fighting each other is a lot more effective than fighting them, especially when you are the supplyer of arms to both sides. So fermenting revolution is core CIA business.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions




Yes, during the Cold War maybe.....when the USSR had a lot of influence in South America (and was actively and covertly funding the Socialist revolutionaries)...But what's the reason for thinking that everything wrong in the world, be it internal strife in countries (with some pretty nasty regimes for the most part) or the corner shop having no milk....is a CIA plot???

Have you just considered that a lot of the strife is due to the internet revolution, and the people finding out that other systems are not as harsh as they've be lead to believe??
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Pretext for war with Iran
Reply #37 - Nov 30th, 2011 at 2:55pm
 
Sir lastnail wrote on Nov 30th, 2011 at 2:10pm:
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Nov 30th, 2011 at 12:20pm:
Or South Koreans who have watched several Taepong Dong missiles fired into the sea in 'exercises'.

Or how about to Israelis who during Gulf War I, when Israel was a neutral country, sawl Haifa and Tel Aviv targetted by missile fire.

Yeah, no danger at all eh?


I ask you again Hicks. What would the US do if some religious crackpots knocked on the Presidents door and said they want their land back in the middle of NY just because it said in some old book written thousands of years ago that  they used to live there ??

What do you think the reaction would be ?? Same as the arabs eh Wink


Bullshit nails......that is one of the most incredible misrepresentations of the Israeli/Arab conflict I've ever seen....
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Re: Pretext for war with Iran
Reply #38 - Nov 30th, 2011 at 3:43pm
 
<<Have you just considered that a lot of the strife is due to the internet revolution, and the people finding out that other systems are not as harsh as they've be lead to believe?? >>
...........................................................

I'm sure they've known that for some time gizmo.

The internet caused the Arab Spring uprisings to grow quickly, but there were much bigger underlying matters than just that. They've had the internet for longer than we have, tv, radio and newspapers, they know what's going on in the rest of the world.

They've known for decades that the West has loose morals and wear bikini's to the beach. I'm sure they knew that the biggest porn industry comes out of America. If they wanted to be like the west they would have ripped their head scarves off at the protests. They want to be Muslims.

They don't want pro western rule or they would have stuck with Mubarak who was put there by the military. They don't want the American backed leaders to rule them.

They would probably like some type of democracy, but to be able to have a hand in that themselves. They want the right to self determination, just like we want.

Trying to suggest that for most of their lives they have been ignorant is pretty insulting.


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Re: Pretext for war with Iran
Reply #39 - Nov 30th, 2011 at 4:04pm
 
I have to roll my eyes at people who think the internet is going to save us all from tyranny and deliver us to the land of milk and honey.

You can have the internet - as always, all that matters in the end is who has got the guns.
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Pretext for war with Iran
Reply #40 - Nov 30th, 2011 at 4:22pm
 
Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Nov 30th, 2011 at 3:43pm:
<<Have you just considered that a lot of the strife is due to the internet revolution, and the people finding out that other systems are not as harsh as they've be lead to believe?? >>
...........................................................

I'm sure they've known that for some time gizmo.

The internet caused the Arab Spring uprisings to grow quickly, but there were much bigger underlying matters than just that. They've had the internet for longer than we have, tv, radio and newspapers, they know what's going on in the rest of the world.

They've known for decades that the West has loose morals and wear bikini's to the beach. I'm sure they knew that the biggest porn industry comes out of America. If they wanted to be like the west they would have ripped their head scarves off at the protests. They want to be Muslims.

They don't want pro western rule or they would have stuck with Mubarak who was put there by the military. They don't want the American backed leaders to rule them.

They would probably like some type of democracy, but to be able to have a hand in that themselves. They want the right to self determination, just like we want.

Trying to suggest that for most of their lives they have been ignorant is pretty insulting.




And assuming that countries that routinely censor newspapers and tv would allow 'free and unfettered' internet access is somewhat naive...

Add to that, the concept that a lot of people couldn't afford to buy computers or pay for landline internet access as well, and it should become fair clear that it wasn't until wireless internet and internet capable mobile phones became cheap and common that these things really took off...
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It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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Re: Pretext for war with Iran
Reply #41 - Nov 30th, 2011 at 9:34pm
 
A UN report this month said that Iran has been working on designing an atom bomb.  Charming.  With the Brits being one of the main instigators to impose tough sanctions, they should have seen this coming and got their people out before it hit the fan.
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Re: Pretext for war with Iran
Reply #42 - Nov 30th, 2011 at 9:39pm
 
gizmo_2655 wrote on Nov 30th, 2011 at 2:55pm:
Sir lastnail wrote on Nov 30th, 2011 at 2:10pm:
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Nov 30th, 2011 at 12:20pm:
Or South Koreans who have watched several Taepong Dong missiles fired into the sea in 'exercises'.

Or how about to Israelis who during Gulf War I, when Israel was a neutral country, sawl Haifa and Tel Aviv targetted by missile fire.

Yeah, no danger at all eh?


I ask you again Hicks. What would the US do if some religious crackpots knocked on the Presidents door and said they want their land back in the middle of NY just because it said in some old book written thousands of years ago that  they used to live there ??

What do you think the reaction would be ?? Same as the arabs eh Wink


Bullshit nails......that is one of the most incredible misrepresentations of the Israeli/Arab conflict I've ever seen....


I agree, polite requests weren't part of the Zionist agenda.
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Re: Pretext for war with Iran
Reply #43 - Nov 30th, 2011 at 9:44pm
 
Quote:
A UN report this month said that Iran has been working on designing an atom bomb.  Charming


Is it charming that the US has nuclear weapons? How about Israel? India? Russia? Iraq?...oh..wait..

:\
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Re: Pretext for war with Iran
Reply #44 - Nov 30th, 2011 at 10:06pm
 
Grey wrote on Nov 30th, 2011 at 12:41pm:
My feeling is that this incident is the last thing anybody in government in the West wants. They want out of Afghanistan because they can't afford it.

On the other hand destabalising is what the CIA do. I have no doubt that they are behind the uprisings across the arab world, especially Syria. That's not to say that the people in Egypt and Tunisia needed much encouragement. But I don't believe in 'spontaneous revolution', revolutions require planning and capital expenditure. There's evidence of a deal of American involvement in the orange revolutions in the Ukraine and other ex USSR satellites and before the Tiananmen student protests.

The course of events in Syria looks a lot like a lot of pushing is going on. That said I think the Al-Assad regime has been, (apart from muderous) silly. If they'd called elections from the outet the likelehood is that they'd have won. And even if they'd lost they'd have been back in after a term in opposition. But of course dictators dictate, like the CIA, they're stuck in the rut of 'that's the way its always been done around here'.

Which is probably what's going on in Iran, a big brouhaha that fizzles, maybe some deals and concessions made behind the scenes.


Nonsense - Assad had too much blood on his hands -
he knew he'd either be on trial or killed.
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