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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49399 At my desk.	Wahhabism Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 11:04pm Abu what are your thoughts on Wahhabism?
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Yadda

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Re: Wahhabism
Reply #1 - Jan 3^rd, 2012 at 8:50am

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 11:04pm:

Abu what are your thoughts on Wahhabism?

FD, let me propose a possible response from Abu...

"Wahhabism? They are not real moslems. The Saudi Wahhabi clan are the lackey's of the US imperialists, who enable the Saudi Wahhabi oppression of the Saudi people."

+++

In every instance where ISLAM has a primary cultural influence upon a society of people, in instances where moslems are in authority in that society, and are behaving badly, violently, corruptly, those persons [i.e. moslems], refuse to accept responsibility for the consequences of their own governance/choices.
Within moslem societies [i.e. where ISLAM has a primary cultural influence], when everything turns to sh!t for them, moslems [as a society] refuse to accept responsibility for their own poor [violent, corrupt] governance, of their own political affairs.

Q.
Why so?

A.
Because those societies and people are spiritually corrupted, and are being guided by something other than God.

e.g.
Look at what happened, and what IS happening, in Iraq.
The West removed the tyrant Sadam Hussein. [imo, the West should NOT have got involved in Iraq OR Afghanistan. imo, we should leave moslems to 'their own devices', to their own governance. and if they threaten or attack non-moslem societies, we should destroy them.]

Governance of Iraq has effectively been handed back to the Iraqi people.
But now in a culture which is deeply influenced by 'ISLAMIC principles', those people who are jockeying for political authority in Iraq are [on the basis of the influence of ISLAM upon the IRaqi society], before our eyes, quickly formulating another violent, corrupt, tyrannical regime.

Why so?

Why do those people, whose principle cultural influence in their lives is ISLAM, always, always, always, revert to a corrupt and tyrannical form of authority over their fellows?

And why do those people, i.e. moslems [when the governance of their own society fails], always blame the 'influence' of others [for the consequences of their own choices]?

+++

And when anyone asks a moslem, today, to give an example of a good, and just, benevolent Sharia society, a virtuous society based in ISLAMIC law, today, no moslem can point to such an example.

Not in all of the ISLAMIC world, is there even one example of such a society, a virtuous ISLAMIC society.

And that is not surprising, because [almost always] examples of ISLAMIC and Sharia guided societies in the world today, are nests of oppression, depravity, corruption, violence, injustice, and human poverty.

Just as any rational person, would expect them to be.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Wahhabism Reply #2 - Jan 3^rd, 2012 at 11:49pm My thoughts are that Sheikh Muhammad bin Abdul'wahab was a sincere Muslim who worked to revive the true spirit of Islam. His descendants though became tools of the British, rising up in rebellion against the Caliphate, and eventually being used to supplant it through the establishment of the Saudi pirate state.
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falah

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Re: Wahhabism
Reply #3 - Jan 4^th, 2012 at 12:34am

Imam Muhammed ibn Abdul Wahab was a great scholar in the 18th century, and a reformer who achieved much in his day. His efforts at returning Muslims to orthodox Islam are still bearing fruit today.

It is the descendants of his ally, King Sa'ud, who collaborated with the British against the Ottoman Caliphate in the 20th century.

Imam Muhammed Abdul Wahab brought nothing new, but taught orthodox Islam in the manner of the earlier great Islamic scholars such as Ibn Taymiyyah, Imam Ahmad, etc.

He was very religious and memorised the whole Quran, and made the Hajj pilgrimage by age 12. He studied with the scholars of Mecca before returning to the Najd and establishing shariah law in a province in the First Saudi Kingdom.

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Nothing is worthy of worship except God Almighty - our Creator!

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49399 At my desk.	Re: Wahhabism Reply #4 - Jan 4^th, 2012 at 8:55am So you both think Wahhabism is the correct version of Islam, you just disapprove of what happened politically in Saudi Arabia and don't think Wahhabism is enforced properly there?
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abu_rashid

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Re: Wahhabism
Reply #5 - Jan 5^th, 2012 at 9:42pm

I do not follow "Wahabism", no.

As I said, I just think Sheikh Muhammad Bin Abdul Wahab was a sincere reviver of Islam. Most of those calling themselves "salafis" (nobody calls themselves a wahabi, this was a term that referred to their revolt only) do not follow his teachings.

They follow the teachings his descendants concocted at the behest of the Saudi clan over the centuries that they played "clergy" for them.

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Grey

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Re: Wahhabism
Reply #6 - Jan 6^th, 2012 at 1:56am

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 9:42pm:

I do not follow "Wahabism", no.

As I said, I just think Sheikh Muhammad Bin Abdul Wahab was a sincere reviver of Islam. Most of those calling themselves "salafis" (nobody calls themselves a wahabi, this was a term that referred to their revolt only) do not follow his teachings.

They follow the teachings his descendants concocted at the behest of the Saudi clan over the centuries that they played "clergy" for them.

You were asked what you thought of 'Wahabism' not what you thought of Sheik Wahabi. Are you a man or a duck?

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"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40769 Gender:	Re: Wahhabism Reply #7 - Jan 6^th, 2012 at 2:10am grey - muslims do not answer questions if you are questioning islam. If you are agreeing, that is ok.
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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Wahhabism
Reply #8 - Jan 6^th, 2012 at 2:12am

falah wrote on Jan 4^th, 2012 at 12:34am:

Imam Muhammed ibn Abdul Wahab was a great scholar in the 18th century, and a reformer who achieved much in his day. His efforts at returning Muslims to orthodox Islam are still bearing fruit today.

It is the descendants of his ally, King Sa'ud, who collaborated with the British against the Ottoman Caliphate in the 20th century.

Imam Muhammed Abdul Wahab brought nothing new, but taught orthodox Islam in the manner of the earlier great Islamic scholars such as Ibn Taymiyyah, Imam Ahmad, etc.

He was very religious and memorised the whole Quran, and made the Hajj pilgrimage by age 12. He studied with the scholars of Mecca before returning to the Najd and establishing shariah law in a province in the First Saudi Kingdom.

HAHAHHAHAHAHA - ".............a great scholar in the 18th century, and a reformer who achieved much in his day. His efforts at returning Muslims to orthodox Islam are still bearing fruit today............."

are you saying islamics have always existed and can still not be controlled?

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Modern Classic Right Wing

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49399 At my desk.	Re: Wahhabism Reply #9 - Jan 6^th, 2012 at 2:57pm Quote: (nobody calls themselves a wahabi, this was a term that referred to their revolt only) The label is used fairly often in the media.
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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Wahhabism Reply #10 - Jan 7^th, 2012 at 11:39am There's a lot of terms used in the media which are not accurate. Since when did media use of a word validate it? Anyway, the movements based on his teachings call themselves Salafis, not Wahabis. It's ultimately up to you what word you use, but just be aware they never called themselves Wahabis.
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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49399 At my desk.	Re: Wahhabism Reply #11 - Jan 8^th, 2012 at 8:55am Quote: Since when did media use of a word validate it? It gives it meaning. Words need meaning, not validation. They have maning whether you approve of them or not.
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Yadda

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Re: Wahhabism
Reply #12 - Jan 9^th, 2012 at 9:26am

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2012 at 11:49pm:

My thoughts are that Sheikh Muhammad bin Abdul'wahab was a sincere Muslim who worked to revive the true spirit of Islam.

His descendants though became tools of the British, rising up in rebellion against the Caliphate, and eventually being used to supplant it through the establishment of the Saudi pirate state.

IMO, Wahabis/salafis promote, what i view, as criminality in human beings.

IMO, Wahabis/salafis promote a 'lawful', never-ending warfare by moslems, upon all other men and women [....because those other men and women, do not believe what Wahabis/salafis believe].

++++

falah wrote on Jan 4^th, 2012 at 12:34am:

Imam Muhammed ibn Abdul Wahab was a great scholar in the 18th century, and a reformer who achieved much in his day. His efforts at returning Muslims to orthodox Islam are still bearing fruit today.

....
Imam Muhammed Abdul Wahab brought nothing new, but taught orthodox Islam in the manner of the earlier great Islamic scholars such as Ibn Taymiyyah, Imam Ahmad, etc.

Indeed, orthodox ISLAM.

Orthodox ISLAM = = never-ending warfare, by moslems, upon all of unbelieving mankind.

Wahabis/salafis as 'pure' and 'guided' moslems, have a determined [fixed, unchangeable] doctrine of never-ending warfare against all those human beings 'apart' from Wahabis/salafis [i.e. ALL non-Wahabis/salafis, are deemed to be 'unbelievers'].

The Wahabis/salafis religious doctrine, is that all non-Wahabis/salafis who cannot be persuaded to embrace [i.e. convert to] ISLAM [i.e. Wahabism], must be fought against, and brought into subjection [i.e. they must become the slaves of the 'pure' moslems [i.e. Wahabis] ].

That is the clear, open and undeniable doctrine of all Wahabis/salafis .

According to [the Wahabis/salafis and all of the differing sects of...] ISLAM, when moslems encounter 'unbelievers' in their own lands, the 'unbelievers' are to be given/offered 3 options.

The three options are;

1/ Surrender to moslems - and convert to ISLAM.

2/ Surrender to moslems - and live as slaves under moslem political rule [surrendering all of their current rights and freedoms].

3/ Or, ISLAM / moslems are religiously obligated to prosecute a never-ending war with all 'unbelievers' [i.e. 'pure' and 'guided' ISLAMIC schools teach 'pure' and 'guided' ISLAM. And ISLAMIC schools teach every moslem, that all 'unbelievers' are 'guilty' people who may be 'lawfully', 'righteously' murdered by moslems, in Jihad 'operations', for 'insulting' ISLAM - - because they are not moslems].

+++

That mainstream ISLAMIC doctrine is undeniable.

All of the sects of the moslems, proclaim it.

Being cited.....

e.g. #1

Creed of the sword
September 23, 2006
...the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Abdel Aziz al-Sheikh.
...Saudi Arabia's most senior cleric also explained that war was never Islam's ancient founder, the prophet Mohammed's, first choice: "He gave three options: either accept Islam, or surrender and pay tax, and they will be allowed to remain in their land, observing their religion under the protection of Muslims." Thus, according to the Grand Mufti, THE THIRD OPTION OF VIOLENCE AGAINST NON-MUSLIMS WAS ONLY A LAST RESORT, IF THEY REFUSED TO CONVERT OR SURRENDER PEACEFULLY TO THE ARMIES OF ISLAM.
...The resulting doctrine of war was described by the great medieval philosopher Ibn Khaldun: "In the Muslim community, the holy war (jihad) is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the (Muslim) mission and the (obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force." (The Muqaddimah)

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/creed-of-the-sword/story-e6frg6n6-111111225...

e.g. #2

June 26, 2006
The roots of Islamism
".....Islamists believe in the re-ordering of society to secure total submission to a narrow, puritan and fundamentalist interpretation of Islam......
That cleansing process must be accomplished by suicidal violence, because, in the words of Islamism's most influential thinker, Sayyid Qutb, "the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood.".....

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/michael_gove/article679544.e...

e.g. #3

Pakistani cleric: 'We want Islamic law for all Pakistan and then the world. We would like to do this by preaching. But if not then we would use force.'

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/12/pakistani-cleric-we-want-islamic-law-for-all-p...

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Wahhabism Reply #13 - Jan 9^th, 2012 at 10:32pm Yadda, I believe I've showed you where your own Bible prescribes that same 3 step ultimatum of foreign policy. And I believe you ignored this fact....
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Yadda

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Re: Wahhabism
Reply #14 - Jan 10^th, 2012 at 1:06pm

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 9^th, 2012 at 10:32pm:

Yadda, I believe I've showed you where your own Bible prescribes that same 3 step ultimatum of foreign policy.

And i believe i have shown you Abu, how such an interpretation of Hebrew 'foreign policy' [in OT texts] is a deliberate misrepresentation.

As these following OT verses prove, the God of Israel commanded that strangers [i.e. foreigners living among the Hebrews] were to be treated as though they were fellow Hebrews were to be treated with the same RESPECT as fellow Hebrews.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Exodus 22:21
Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him...

Exodus 23:9
Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger...

Leviticus 19:33
And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself...

n.b.
.....and thou shalt love him as thyself

Leviticus 25:47-49
[these verses clearly speak of [and reveal that it was entirely 'lawful'] for Hebrews [themselves] to become bond servants [slaves], to prosperous strangers living among the Hebrews.]

Deuteronomy 1:16
And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

Deuteronomy 10:17-19
For the LORD your God... loveth the stranger, ...Love ye therefore the stranger:
for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 24:17
Thou shalt not pervert the judgment of the stranger, nor of the fatherless; nor take a widow's raiment to pledge:
18 But thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in Egypt, and the LORD thy God redeemed thee thence: therefore I command thee to do this thing.

Deuteronomy 27:19
Cursed be he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger...

Abu, how are those OT verses above, consistent with your interpretation of the OT bible "3 step ultimatum of foreign policy", a policy of warfare against people because they were non-Hebrews ???

When God clearly commands the Hebrews.....

.....and thou shalt love him [the foreigner, the stranger] as thyself

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 9^th, 2012 at 10:32pm:

And I believe you ignored this fact....

Not at all.

Rather, i have consistently pointed out to you what seems to be your deliberate misrepresentation of the reason for the Hebrew aggression and warfare against the original inhabitants of the land.

2 Samuel 7:23
And what one nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, from the nations and their gods?

1 Chronicles 17:21
And what one nation in the earth is like thy people Israel, whom God went to redeem to be his own people, to make thee a name of greatness and terribleness, by driving out nations from before thy people, whom thou hast redeemed out of Egypt?
22 For thy people Israel didst thou make thine own people for ever; and thou, LORD, becamest their God.

Abu,

Once again.....

And why did God want to destroy the original inhabitants of the land ???

Was it because the original inhabitants of the land were not Hebrews ???

No.

No.

No.

No.

The God of Israel did not want to destroy the people of those lands because they were 'unbelievers', nor because they were NOT Hebrews.
.....but because the original inhabitants of the land were a society of murderers, and child killers.

The God of Israel said that it was because those people [the original inhabitants of the land] were an abomination before God, because of their wickedness.

As per stated here.....

Leviticus 18:24
Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;)
28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 20:22
Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out.
23 And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.
24 But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people.

So do you now understand Abu ???

That the God of Israel did not command the Hebrews to destroy the people of those lands because they were 'unbelievers', nor because they were NOT Hebrews.

The God of Israel wanted to destroyed those peoples, and commanded the Hebrews to destroy them, BECAUSE THEY WERE WICKED PEOPLE.

THE ORIGINAL INHABITANTS OF THE LAND DID WICKED THINGS, WHICH THE GOD OF ISRAEL HATED.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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