Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 2 3 4
Send Topic Print
PRIDE (Read 8131 times)
...
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 23673
WA
Gender: male
PRIDE
Jan 10th, 2012 at 6:17pm
 
Is a word used too often these days.  We have people claiming to be 'proud' of their specific brand of disability, from deaf pride to fat pride. 

Quote:
FORMER MasterChef winner Julie Goodwin said she is in robust good health and has hit out at claims she needs to lose weight after posing in her swimming costume for a woman's magazine.
The mother of three said using size as the only indicator to someones health is facile after Sunday Telegraph Insider social columnist Ros Reines attacked her looks after appearing on the cover of New Idea.

Reines said it was irresponsible for Goodwin to pretend it is fine to be overweight and said she needs owes it to her children to downsize.

Goodwin hit back in her online blog yesterday saying she was proud of her body with all its magnificent imperfections.


It is one thing to be 'not ashamed' of her body, I can understand that, but to be 'proud' of it is another entirely.  Doesn't, or shouldn't, one usually feel pride -genuine pride - at ones achievements, rather than ones weaknesses?
Back to top
 

In the fullness of time...
 
IP Logged
 
Soren
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 25654
Gender: male
Re: PRIDE
Reply #1 - Jan 10th, 2012 at 9:54pm
 
This is another way of saying that 'all shall have prizes'.

And if everyone is proud, no-one is ashamed.



Bring Back Stigma

Roger Scruton

It is now orthodox to regard social stigma as a form of oppression, to be discarded on our collective quest for inner freedom. But the political philosophers and novelists of former times would have been horrified by such a view. In almost all matters that touched upon the core requirements of social order, they believed that the genial pressure of manners, morals, and customs—enforced by the various forms of disapproval, stigma, shame, and reproach—was a more powerful guarantor of civilized and lawful behavior than the laws themselves. Inner sanctions, they argued, more dependably maintain society than such external ones as policemen and courts. That is why the moralists of the eighteenth century, for example, rarely touched upon murder, theft, rape, or criminal deception; instead, they were passionately interested in the small-scale mores on which social order depends and which, properly adhered to, make such crimes unthinkable.

Stigma has evaporated in our era, and along with it much of the constant, small-scale self-regulation of the community, which depends on each individual's respect for, and fear of, other people's judgment.

Read on at http://www.city-journal.org/html/10_4_bring_back_stigma.html
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
...
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 23673
WA
Gender: male
Re: PRIDE
Reply #2 - Jan 11th, 2012 at 10:18am
 
That's it - bring back stigma. 

I know that these 'pride' organistaions aren't really filled with 'proud' people, but rather ashamed people who want support from those who share their affliction, and I can respect that.

But when they start using their collective as a means to bludgeon society into accepting their favourable orthodoxy when do you say enough is enough?  When do you quit tiptoeing around their flaws in the name of sensitivity and give em a bit of 'tough love'? 

Quote:

The odd result of this movement to reject stigma, however, has been the introduction of stigma of another kind. "Judgmental" people find themselves condemned with a vehemence that would have gone down well in Salem. Those who live by the old morality end up paraded with abusive labels: if you deplore illegitimacy and the welfare dependency that often follows it, you show yourself to be "mean-spirited" and lacking in "compassion"; if you oppose the normalization of homosexuality, you are "homophobic"; if you believe in Western culture, you are an "elitist"—all labels that can damage a professional career. Stigma floats free in the anarchic world of individualist life-styles, ready to attach itself to anyone who stands up for self-restraint.

It is in this context that we should understand political correctness. The new kind of stigma creates a new kind of fear. Political correctness is not a morality in the traditional sense: it does not require you to change your life, to make sacrifices, or to live by an exacting code of conduct. It tells you to watch your language, so as to avoid the only prevalent adverse judgment, which is judgment of the adverse judge. It tells you to speak inclusively of other cultures, other life-styles, other values: never take a disapproving stance or use words that might imply one. Hence the extreme volatility of the new speech codes. Any phrase or idiom that seems to imply judgment of another category or class of people can become, almost overnight, an object of stigma.

Unlike the old forms of stigma, however, whose function was to bind a community together and to seal each member into the common fate, this new form of stigma has precisely the opposite aim: to permit social fragmentation. The talk of "social inclusion" is a mask for the reverse.



and it is precisely this 'social fragmentation' that allows relatively small bands of whine-mongers to impose their will on a divided public.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Jan 11th, 2012 at 11:32am by ... »  

In the fullness of time...
 
IP Logged
 
Yadda
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 21884
A cat with a view
Re: PRIDE
Reply #3 - Jan 12th, 2012 at 5:21am
 
Soren wrote on Jan 10th, 2012 at 9:54pm:

This is another way of saying that 'all shall have prizes'.

And if everyone is proud, no-one is ashamed.





LOL

And there is much to be ashamed of, methinks.

But that is a thought that should never be uttered today, it seems.



So much wrong.

And so much denial [of any wrong].

......and when the chooks come home to roost?





No accountability.

That is the [false] morality which this generation has been encouraged to embrace, imo.

It is sad.

Back to top
 

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
IP Logged
 
Karnal
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 96384
Re: PRIDE
Reply #4 - Jan 12th, 2012 at 2:32pm
 
I agree with your sentiments, Honky, but I think what the Masterchef lady's getting at is that fat ladies are UNFAILY stigmatised.

In most other cultures they're high status fertility godesses, just as they were here until the 1930s or so.

When do you quit tiptoeing around people's flaws? Yadda should be able to answer that one.

When you've removed your own. Only Dr Phil is allowed to dispense Tough Love. It gets good ratings, you see.

People seem to have this unquenchable thirst for the blood of others. It used to be gladiators, now it's Dr Phil and public housing tenants getting their comeuppance on Today Tonight. You think stigma doesn't exist?

Today you're stigmatised for not wearing the right brands or not having a marketable body. The goalposts have changed to suit the economy. In the past you'd get stigmatised for getting yourself knocked up or not getting yourself killed in the trenches. Stigmas have always been used as a form of social control.

Stigmas are the weapons of bitter old gossips with nothing better to do than meddle in other people's lives.

Yadda and I prefer to follow the teachings of Jesus, thank you.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
...
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 23673
WA
Gender: male
Re: PRIDE
Reply #5 - Jan 12th, 2012 at 3:29pm
 
Karnal wrote on Jan 12th, 2012 at 2:32pm:
I agree with your sentiments, Honky, but I think what the Masterchef lady's getting at is that fat ladies are UNFAILY stigmatised.

In most other cultures they're high status fertility godesses, just as they were here until the 1930s or so.

When do you quit tiptoeing around people's flaws? Yadda should be able to answer that one.

When you've removed your own. Only Dr Phil is allowed to dispense Tough Love. It gets good ratings, you see.

People seem to have this unquenchable thirst for the blood of others. It used to be gladiators, now it's Dr Phil and public housing tenants getting their comeuppance on Today Tonight. You think stigma doesn't exist?

Today you're stigmatised for not wearing the right brands or not having a marketable body. The goalposts have changed to suit the economy. In the past you'd get stigmatised for getting yourself knocked up or not getting yourself killed in the trenches. Stigmas have always been used as a form of social control.

Stigmas are the weapons of bitter old gossips with nothing better to do than meddle in other people's lives.

Yadda and I prefer to follow the teachings of Jesus, thank you.



Whats unfair about it?  She eats too much and doesn't move enough.  There's no "glandular problems".  She's not "big boned"  She's fat and unhealthy.  Her caloric intake exceeds her output.  Greed AND sloth.  2 out of 7 deadly sins right there. 

We've all got out faults, but usually we know that they are faults, and not something to be proud of.  They are something to be worked on, to be overcome.  But if you have enough people telling you it's "normal" or even "good" what reason is there to work on it?

I know stigma still exists, it's just been redirected.  It's in that Scruton essay - To stigmatise is the greatest stigma there is.
Back to top
 

In the fullness of time...
 
IP Logged
 
barnaby joe
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 1992
euchareena
Re: PRIDE
Reply #6 - Jan 12th, 2012 at 7:58pm
 
Quote:
To stigmatise is the greatest stigma there is.


not really. is it a stigma to stigmatise against a racist? a homophobe? a 'bigot'? a sexist? a reactionary? a 'fascist'? a right wing authoritarian? etc. no. is it a stigma to stigmatise against smokers? no. i even think the taboo against stigmatising the obese is largely exaggerated and fabricated - fat people do get the occasional loser defending them (usually beta males flying air cover for fat chicks they want to get with) but really most of the time they get a lot of sh1t.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
barnaby joe
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 1992
euchareena
Re: PRIDE
Reply #7 - Jan 12th, 2012 at 8:04pm
 
oh, and people saying that obesity is caused by poverty, but that only happens whenever the correlation between obesity and poverty is broached. personally i think the prevailing nutritional dogmas (carbohydrates overemphasised as good, for you 'low fat' obession etc) needs to be heavily scrutinised if we want to get anywhere with the obesity issue.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Karnal
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 96384
Re: PRIDE
Reply #8 - Jan 12th, 2012 at 8:50pm
 
barnaby joe wrote on Jan 12th, 2012 at 8:04pm:
oh, and people saying that obesity is caused by poverty, but that only happens whenever the correlation between obesity and poverty is broached. personally i think the prevailing nutritional dogmas (carbohydrates overemphasised as good, for you 'low fat' obession etc) needs to be heavily scrutinised if we want to get anywhere with the obesity issue.


Obesity is not caused by poverty. It's just that in the West, more obese people come from lower socio-economic backgrounds.

In places like India, the poor are generally thin. Why? Our economies are different. Ours is a deskbound service economy geared towards processed fast food. Theirs is based on manual labour and fresh, unprocessed, vegetarian food. It's a good diet if you can afford it, and most can. In India, the poor eat rice and lentils. In Australia and the US, the poor eat McDonalds.

This is the way our respective economies work. Sure, those on the dole in Australia could eat rice and lentils too, but the products competing for your eyeline on Coles and Woolworths shelves are mainly full of sugar.

The biggest winners to come out of Masterchef are Dominos and KFC.

Yes, it's all about values, but more than anything else, values have economic causes.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
...
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 23673
WA
Gender: male
Re: PRIDE
Reply #9 - Jan 12th, 2012 at 8:50pm
 
barnaby joe wrote on Jan 12th, 2012 at 7:58pm:
Quote:
To stigmatise is the greatest stigma there is.


not really. is it a stigma to stigmatise against a racist? a homophobe? a 'bigot'? a sexist? a reactionary? a 'fascist'? a right wing authoritarian? etc. no. is it a stigma to stigmatise against smokers? no. i even think the taboo against stigmatising the obese is largely exaggerated and fabricated - fat people do get the occasional loser defending them (usually beta males flying air cover for fat chicks they want to get with) but really most of the time they get a lot of sh1t.



yeah, but being a sexist/racist is to stigamtise the opposite sex/race.  Aparrently.

It's overlooked when it's against these 'approved' targets becasue they are the chosen scapegoats of the present ruling class ie pc/multiculti/lefty elites. They're pretty good at overlooking or ignoring things that threaten their ideology.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Jan 12th, 2012 at 9:28pm by ... »  

In the fullness of time...
 
IP Logged
 
Soren
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 25654
Gender: male
Re: PRIDE
Reply #10 - Jan 12th, 2012 at 9:01pm
 
The point about shame and stigma, as Scruton makes it, is that it is now near-verboten to stigmatise things that valorise social fregmentation. What is hissed down with vehemence are things that are pushing towards social cohesion.




Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
barnaby joe
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 1992
euchareena
Re: PRIDE
Reply #11 - Jan 12th, 2012 at 9:06pm
 
Karnal wrote on Jan 12th, 2012 at 8:50pm:
barnaby joe wrote on Jan 12th, 2012 at 8:04pm:
oh, and people saying that obesity is caused by poverty, but that only happens whenever the correlation between obesity and poverty is broached. personally i think the prevailing nutritional dogmas (carbohydrates overemphasised as good, for you 'low fat' obession etc) needs to be heavily scrutinised if we want to get anywhere with the obesity issue.


Obesity is not caused by poverty. It's just that in the West, more obese people come from lower socio-economic backgrounds.

In places like India, the poor are generally thin. Why? Our economies are different. Ours is a deskbound service economy geared towards processed fast food. Theirs is based on manual labour and fresh, unprocessed, vegetarian food. It's a good diet if you can afford it, and most can. In India, the poor eat rice and lentils. In Australia and the US, the poor eat McDonalds.

This is the way our respective economies work. Sure, those on the dole in Australia could eat rice and lentils too, but the products competing for your eyeline on Coles and Woolworths shelves are mainly full of sugar.

The biggest winners to come out of Masterchef are Dominos and KFC.

Yes, it's all about values, but more than anything else, values have economic causes.


there are some good documentary films you should check out - one is called king corn, it's an american film but it has some relevance here too. the other is called fat-head, which is sort of a reverse super size me.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
barnaby joe
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 1992
euchareena
Re: PRIDE
Reply #12 - Jan 12th, 2012 at 9:07pm
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_Head
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
muso
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male
Re: PRIDE
Reply #13 - Jan 13th, 2012 at 10:04am
 
Karnal wrote on Jan 12th, 2012 at 8:50pm:
Obesity is not caused by poverty. It's just that in the West, more obese people come from lower socio-economic backgrounds.

In places like India, the poor are generally thin. Why? Our economies are different. Ours is a deskbound service economy geared towards processed fast food. Theirs is based on manual labour and fresh, unprocessed, vegetarian food. It's a good diet if you can afford it, and most can. In India, the poor eat rice and lentils. In Australia and the US, the poor eat McDonalds.

This is the way our respective economies work. Sure, those on the dole in Australia could eat rice and lentils too, but the products competing for your eyeline on Coles and Woolworths shelves are mainly full of sugar.

The biggest winners to come out of Masterchef are Dominos and KFC.

Yes, it's all about values, but more than anything else, values have economic causes.


True, but on the other hand, heart disease in India is disproportionately high. Many doctors in India are promoting the use of Olive Oil and mustard oil rather than ghee. The use of coconut milk, which largely contains unsaturated fats is another major factor.

http://www.ajcn.org/content/79/4/582.abstract

The ironic thing is that if you buy mustard oil that's marketed in  the US, there is a health hazard. It says "For external use only".  I only use it outdoors at barbecues, so I'm good. Grin
On the other hand, the US has no such warnings on butter, and that's a crazy state of affairs from a risk perspective.

The same goes for sugar and artificial sweeteners. The risk imposed by the calorific intake of sugars, particularly corn syrup vastly outweighs the very minor cancer risk imposed by phenylalanine.

By the way, I actively discriminate against lard arses (my profuse apologies, I mean beauty challenged.......er fuglies). In most cases, it's caused by a lazy lifestyle or eating crap. The only problem is that a person can still be fat even after 6 months of a balanced diet, so it's probably best not to comment  Grin
Back to top
« Last Edit: Jan 13th, 2012 at 10:15am by muso »  

...
1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not 
 
IP Logged
 
...
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 23673
WA
Gender: male
Re: PRIDE
Reply #14 - Jan 13th, 2012 at 10:21am
 
Artifical sweeteners?  I wouldn't touch 'em.

Quote:
sugar-free foods play a role in the nation's current obesity epidemic.Twenty years ago, Dr. Russell Blaylock predicted that excess phenylalanine in the brain from using aspartame blocks the normal production of serotonin to the point of weight gain due to an increase craving for carbohydrates and sugar. The result: epidemic weight gain.


They 'trick' the body into needing sweetness.  You might 'save' a few calories by having a tablet in your coffee instead of a teaspoon of sugar, but you'll make that up 10 fold in everything else.  Diet foods are a trap.
It is perhaps a little unfair on fatties who are trying to get in hsape - so many conflicting messages.  Most of the stuff I learnt at uni 10 years ago, as well as what I've found through trial and error, now goes exactly opposite to the 'accepted wisdom' of today.  But, it's a problem of their own making.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Jan 13th, 2012 at 10:30am by ... »  

In the fullness of time...
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 4
Send Topic Print