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Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights (Read 23251 times)

Yadda

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Re: Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights
Reply #15 - Feb 8^th, 2012 at 1:16am

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 5:47am:

[on the subject of destroying the Midianites.....]

Even if we were to accept your claim about child sacrifice, does that justify in your book murdering men, women and children?

I guess when you worship a "man of war" anything is possible isn't it.

Abu,
Q #1,
So Allah DOES NOT allow the killing of women and children ?

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 5:47am:

Yadda wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 8:44pm:

Abu,

Do you condone this policy of moslems, sacrificing their children to the cause of their god, Allah........ ???

see the images of children suicide bombers, here.....
Arab world in revolt, how will the West fare?
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1296163674/58#58

When a people are "vexed" enough then they will goto extremes to protect themselves. Peoples under occupation and constant siege will end up becoming a warrior people, each and every one of them will have to fight to defend themselves.

This speaks volumes about the one doing the vexing doesn't it?

But then again in your eyes the vexers are the chosen ones, and the vexed are the designated enemies of your "man-o-war", so that's all righteous isn't it?

Abu,
Q #2,
So Allah DOES allow the killing of women and children, IN ALLAH'S CAUSE ?

+++

Abu,

You are a walking example of how 'reason' and 'rationality' can be used by men, to justify any atrocity or wickedness.
.....changing your 'form' [changing your 'moral' stance], depending upon which side of the fence of morality you are standing on, at any particular time.

#1,
God destroying a people who sacrificed their children to demons, is 'questionable' and 'shocking'.

#2,
While at the same time, a people sacrificing their children, for 'the cause of their God', is 'justified' and 'reasonable'.

+++

Abu, you said.....

"When a people are "vexed" enough then they will goto extremes to protect themselves."

That sounds rational.

People will go to extremes 'to protect themselves'.

......by making suicide bombers, OF THEIR CHILDREN.

????????????

Rationally, if a people [e.g. the 'Palestinians'] were fighting a war, wouldn't RATIONAL PEOPLE WANT to remove their children from the war zone ?

To ensure the safety of their children ?

But unfortunately for the poor, unfortunate 'Palestinians' there is nowhere nearby, for the 'Palestinian' children to find sanctuary.....
/sarc off

IMAGE

LOOK AT THE MAP.

LOOK AT THE SPACE AVAILABLE IN THE REGION.

COMPARE THE SMALL SIZE OF THE LAND OF ISRAEL, WITH THE LARGE AREA OF SAUDI ARABIA.

According to ISLAM/moslems, there is no place [i.e. there can be no tolerance] for a Jewish state anywhere in the Middle East.

Why so?

The Jewish people have so little.

The moslems have so much.

And REMEMBER, the land which the Jewish people have [i.e. the land of Israel], is the ancient homeland of the Jewish people.

But moslems will not allow an non-moslem state/entity to live among moslems in the region.

And that, is what the moslem conflict with Israel is about.

Moslems refuse to TOLERATE an sovereign un-ISLAMIC state among them.

Because ALL moslems are, intolerant moslems.

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him;...."
Koran 3.85

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights
Reply #16 - Feb 8^th, 2012 at 11:49am

falah wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 4:39pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 1:50pm:

Pol Pot was a buddhist he did not believe in god yet he believed in the afterlife so he cannot be an atheist.
Do Atheists believe in the afterlife Falah?

Stalin had a father who was a priest how much time did he spend in the seminary falah?

Dress it up any way you want, but they were atheist leaders.

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 1:50pm:

Naziism,Communism,Maoism were all dogmas we opposed.

A little curious as to who you mean by "we", because I am fairly certain that you and I have never met.

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 1:50pm:

Bob Hawke was an atheist Prime Minister did he give us medicare?

An atheist perhaps, but limited in his atheism endeavours by the Australian parliamentary system which required him to have the support of a parliament of mostly non-atheists.

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 1:50pm:

Falah-
Is having sex with and marrying children a good thing?
If you say NO then Mohammad is not your moral guide!

Prophet Muhammed's wives themselves said that he never consumated a marriage with a wife who had not reached puberty.

Throughout most of human history, the definition of child (for marriage purposes) has been someone who has not reached puberty.

Falah-
Ifyou are a muslim who says Islam s the only true religion then that indicates you do not believe in other religions.
A musim is an atheist when it comes to other religions.
A muslim only has to say the first part of the shahada to become an atheist.
"There is no god....." is the only part of the shahada an atheist will speak.

Abu claimed Ibn Sina was a muslim when the reality is he was an atheist in the golden age of atheism.
Why do muslims try to pass of Ibn Sina as a muslim when al Ghazali declared he as an atheist?
Thread here exposing Abu's lies in claiming an atheist was a muslim.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1312088017

There is no atheist ideology you cannot cite a atheist bible because there is none.

We have hada few atheist leaders in Australia-
John Gorton.John Curtin,Gough Whitlam,Bob Hawke and Julia.
Atheism is growing faster than any religion in Australia according to the 2006 census-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_Australia

« Last Edit: Feb 8^th, 2012 at 11:15pm by abu_rashid »

Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Yadda

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Re: Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights
Reply #17 - Feb 8^th, 2012 at 12:24pm

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 5:47am:

"Yahweh is a man of war, Yahweh is his name" (Exodus 15:3)

Even if we were to accept your claim about child sacrifice, does that justify in your book murdering men, women and children? I guess when you worship a "man of war" anything is possible isn't it.

.......
.......

......in your eyes the vexers are the chosen ones, and the vexed are the designated enemies of your "man-o-war", so that's all righteous isn't it?

You hate God Abu, because his enemies are your friends.

+++

It is our choices in this life, and our integrity [or our lack of integrity !!! ] which is a witness against us, BEFORE GOD, and which reveals who we are.

We can not hide it.

+++

Abu,

Are YOU faithful and true ?

And, is YOUR master faithful and true ?

OR, is YOUR master a deceiver ?

According to the Koran [i.e. according to Allah himself], 'Allah is the best of schemers.' [.....the best deceiver]

And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.
Koran 3.54

Google;
99 names of allah, deceiver

In the Bible, the God of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, is attributed thus,

Job 12:16
With him is strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver are his.

Wink

+++

Abu,

And you 'complain', that God is a man of war ????

Revelation 19:11
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Too bad Abu.

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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falah

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Re: Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights
Reply #18 - Feb 8^th, 2012 at 10:02pm

Yadda wrote on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 12:24pm:

You hate God Abu, because his enemies are your friends.

Iam certain Abu Rashid is not friends with you Yadda, so your claim is false.

Yadda wrote on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 12:24pm:

Abu,

Are YOU faithful and true ?

And, is YOUR master faithful and true ?

OR, is YOUR master a deceiver ?

According to the Koran [i.e. according to Allah himself], 'Allah is the best of schemers.' [.....the best deceiver]

Yadda the verse does not say "the best deceiver" it says "the best of planners".

...And they (Jews) plotted [to kill Jesus], but God planned too. And

God is the Best of the planners.

(The Qur'an, Aalee Imran (Family of Jesus) v.54)

Nothing is worthy of worship except God Almighty - our Creator!

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights Reply #19 - Feb 8^th, 2012 at 10:34pm Planner, schemer - what's the difference? The context makes it clear that the disbelievers were schemeing. Allah out-schemed them. That's the point.
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falah

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Re: Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights
Reply #20 - Feb 8^th, 2012 at 11:08pm

Soren wrote on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 10:34pm:

Planner, schemer - what's the difference? The context makes it clear that the disbelievers were schemeing. Allah out-schemed them.
That's the point.

But somehow in Yadda's translation it becomes "deceiver", which is not accurate at all.

It would be like someone saying "Jews are a thrifty people" and then if we apply Yadda's translation style that he uses for the Quran it would come out as: "Jews are money-lovers (they steal)"

« Last Edit: Feb 8^th, 2012 at 11:18pm by falah »

Nothing is worthy of worship except God Almighty - our Creator!

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abu_rashid

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Re: Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights
Reply #21 - Feb 8^th, 2012 at 11:12pm

The word means to plan to strategise, devise, it does not mean to deceive.

In fact the same word exists in Hebrew (and in the Bible) and it means to engage in business (ie. to plan and manage a business). There is nothing negative about this name at all.

One who is "makar" is intelligent and wise, not deceptive. Also the word is qualified by the adjective khyr, meaning "of pure goodness". So he is the one who plans and strategises in a purely good way, khyr ul-makireen.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights
Reply #22 - Feb 8^th, 2012 at 11:14pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 11:49am:

Abu claimed Ibn Sina was a muslim when the reality is he was an atheist in the golden age of atheism.
Why do muslims try to pass of Ibn Sina as a muslim when al Ghazali declared he as an atheist?
Thread here exposing Abu's lies in claiming an atheist was a muslim.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1312088017

So why did he begin his books with the words "Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Raheem"?

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights
Reply #23 - Feb 9^th, 2012 at 8:29am

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 11:14pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 11:49am:

So why did he begin his books with the words "Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Raheem"?

How can Ibn Sina be a muslim as well as an atheist is that some kind of Islamic logic?

Quote:

Other scholars stated Ibn Sina was an atheist before Al-Huwaini did amongst them is - Al Ghazali- Ibn Tamiyah-Ibn Al Qayim and Al Dhahabi
Source-http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=877...

The vast majority of these scientists were Persians- Falah says the shia are not muslims...lol.

Muhammad al Razi wa another atheist from the golden age of atheism.
http://e-paa.org/articles/freethinkers-history-muhammad-ibn-zakariya-al-razi

Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Yadda

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Re: Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights
Reply #24 - Feb 9^th, 2012 at 11:32am

falah wrote on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 10:02pm:

Yadda wrote on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 12:24pm:

According to the Koran [i.e. according to Allah himself], 'Allah is the best of schemers.' [.....the best deceiver]

Yadda the verse does not say "the best deceiver" it says "the best of planners".

...And they (Jews) plotted [to kill Jesus], but God planned too. And

God is the Best of the planners.

(The Qur'an, Aalee Imran (Family of Jesus) v.54)

And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.
Koran 3.54

Quote:

Allah – The Greatest Deceiver of them All

Sam Shamoun

The Quran describes Allah as the best deceiver there is, a liar who is not above using the same evil and wicked schemes of his opponents.

For example, the Quran calls Allah a makr, in fact the best makr there is:

But they (the Jews) were deceptive, and Allah was deceptive, for Allah is the best of deceivers (Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru al-makireena)! S. 3:54; cf. 8:30

Other texts that identify Allah as a makr include:

Are they then secure from Allah's deception (makra Allahi)? None deemeth himself secure from Allah's deception (makra Allahi) save folk that perish. S. 7:99

So they schemed a scheme: and We schemed a scheme (Wamakaroo makran wamakarna makran), while they perceived not. S. 27:50

The word for deception/deceiver/scheme is makr. The lexical sources define the term as:

Miim-Kaf-Ra = To practice deceit or guile or circumvention, practice evasion or elusion, to plot, to exercise art or craft or cunning, act with policy, practice stratagem.

makara vb. (1)
perf. act. 3:54, 3:54, 7:123, 13:42, 14:46, 16:26, 16:45, 27:50, 40:45, 71:22
impf. act. 6:123, 6:123, 6:124, 8:30, 8:30, 8:30, 10:21, 12:102, 16:127, 27:70, 35:10
n.vb. 7:99, 7:99, 7:123, 10:21, 10:21, 12:31, 13:33, 13:42, 14:46, 14:46, 14:46, 27:50, 27:50, 27:51, 34:33, 35:10, 35:43, 35:43, 71:22
pcple. act. 3:54, 8:30

LL, V7, p: 256 (Source)

And:

He practised DECEIT, GUILE, or CIRCUMVENTION, desiring to do another a foul, an abominable, or an evil action, clandestinely or without his knowing whence it proceeded. (Lane’s Arabic-English Lexicon; source)

Lest Muslims accuse these lexicons of bias or distortion notice what Muslim scholar Dr. Mahmoud M. Ayoub says when he asks,

"how the word makr (scheming or plotting), which implies deceitfulness or dishonesty, could be attributed to God." (The Quran and Its Interpreters – The House of Imran [State University of New York Press [SUNY], Albany 1992], Volume II, p. 165; italic emphasis ours)

After listing several Muslim sources he quotes a renowned Muslim expositor named ar-Razi who wrote that,.....
[and on, and on......]

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/allah_best_deceiver.htm
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Versions/003.054.html

Google;
Allah is the best of schemers, lie

+++

The testimony of MY God, is truth.

Job 12:16
With him is strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver are his.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Isaiah 65:15
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:
16 That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.

Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Genesis 22:15
And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Hebrews 6:13
For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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falah

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Re: Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights
Reply #25 - Feb 9^th, 2012 at 1:32pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 9^th, 2012 at 8:29am:

The vast majority of these scientists were Persians- Falah says the shia are not muslims...lol.

Did it occur to you that there are millions of Persians who are not shi-ites?

...and that there might be different types of shi-ites?

For the Twelver Shi-ite sect, found mostly in Iran, it is only the government and leaders who are considered to be outside of Islam. The ordinary person on the street is technically considered muslim unless he utters the heresies of his leaders.

Nothing is worthy of worship except God Almighty - our Creator!

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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights Reply #26 - Feb 9^th, 2012 at 7:32pm Actually the majority of Persians were not Shi'a in the early days of Islam. It was only later under the Buwayhi and Safawi empires that they became Shi'a and enforced Shi'ism on others.
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Yadda

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Re: Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights
Reply #27 - Feb 9^th, 2012 at 7:55pm

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 9^th, 2012 at 7:32pm:

Actually the majority of Persians were not Shi'a in the early days of Islam. It was only later under the Buwayhi and Safawi empires that they became Shi'a

......and enforced Shi'ism on others.

Surely not!

How un-ISLAMIC of them, how un-moslem of them.
/ sarc off

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things."
Koran 2.256

Koran 2.256 is now an 'abrogated' [put aside by Allah] Koran verse, which moslems no longer 'take hold' of.

Because, ......Allah changed his mind and said...

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him;...."
Koran 3.85

"...And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah...Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan:.."
Koran 4.74-76

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights Reply #28 - Feb 9^th, 2012 at 10:40pm Yadda, These verses do not contradict, you just have a devious mind that seeks out contradictions where there are none, since deviancy is your delight. There is most certainly no compulsion IN religion, you cannot force anyone to enter IN to Islam.
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Yadda

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Re: Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights
Reply #29 - Feb 10^th, 2012 at 12:42am

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 9^th, 2012 at 10:40pm:

Yadda,

These verses do not contradict,

you just have a devious mind that seeks out contradictions where there are none, since deviancy is your delight.

There is most certainly no compulsion IN religion, you cannot force anyone to enter IN to Islam.

>> I << know that there is no contradiction in those verses, .....in your moslem mind Abu.

Look at the moslem 'logic'....

"You can choose conversion, submission, or death.
.....**NO COMPULSION**! YOU CHOOSE."

Moslems are duplicitous.

Everyday, moslems present Koran verse 2.256, to the naive and uninformed non-moslems, as 'proof' that ISLAM is a tolerant religion.

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things."
Koran 2.256

Yet, where moslems have authority in government, they commonly oppress and murder non-moslems, because they are, non-moslems.

Duplicitous.

Dictionary;
duplicity = =
1 deceitfulness.
2 archaic the quality of being double.

Quote:

"LET THERE BE NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION......."

The famous Koran verse, often offered to naive non-moslems
,
....'proving' ISLAM's tolerance of other religions,
....and, REALLY proving that, ALL GOOD MOSLEMS ARE BARE FACED LIARS
....

"Let there be no compulsion in religion......."

Koran 2:256

The darker interpretation on this 'soft' verse,
.....AND AN 'INTERPRETATION' WHICH MILITANT MOSLEMS ACCEPT, IS,

"You can choose conversion, submission, or death.
.....**NO COMPULSION**! YOU CHOOSE."

EXAMPLES HERE,

Iraq -
4 March 2007
Iraq's Mandaeans 'face extinction'
By Angus Crawford
The Sabian Mandaeans - one of the oldest religious groups in the world - are facing extinction, according to its leaders.
They claim that Islamic extremists in Iraq are trying to wipe them out through forced conversions, rape and murder.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6412453.stm

Israeli wins Fatah top body seat
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1250492811/17#17

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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