Australian Politics Forum - 12 new subs- technically possible?

Bobby.

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12 new subs- technically possible?
Jan 31^st, 2012 at 10:38pm

Hi Everyone,
Do you think that after the debacle with the Collins subs that
we should pour $36 billion into more?
I don't think we have the technical capability to do it.
Out of 6 subs we have only 1 or 2 in service.
Will this just be another BER or Pink Batts fiasco?

http://www.pressdisplay.com/pressdisplay/viewer.aspx

Quote:

ANY decision not to build a new generation of home-grown submarines in Australia would be an admission of failure and would signal to the world that local industry was incapable of large-scale defence projects, the head of the Australian Submarine Corporation has warned. Steve Ludlam said a decision not to build a new Australianmade fleet of submarines to eventually replace the Collinsclass would waste a generation of skills and knowledge and rob the country of a vibrant shipbuilding industry. Mr Ludlam’s plea for the government to build homemade submarines follows growing calls for it to consider the cheaper option of buying ready-made, proven submarines from overseas rather than risk a repeat of the troubled Collins-class fleet. The Gillard government has said it would build 12 conventionally powered submarines in Adelaide, but has not yet said whether they would be largely Australian-made or a locally constructed off-the-shelf European boat. Writing in The Australian today, Mr Ludlam says the technical challenges of building and maintaining the Collinsclass fleet have created a valuable core of experience in submarine knowhow. ‘‘I believe the difficulties encountered in the Collins program to this day present a powerful argument in favour of the commonwealth building the next generation of submarines – not admitting failure, turning tail and telling the world that Australia lacks the capability to build sophisticated defence hardware,’’ said Mr Ludlam, who is managing director of the ASC, which built and maintains the six Collins-class submarines. The construction of 12 homemade son-of-collins submarines has been estimated at up to $36 billion compared with about $9bn for European-designed boats that are smaller and have a shorter range. A report by the Kokoda Foundation argues that an Australian-made fleet could be built for $18bn. This estimate, however, is rejected by submariners and military experts.

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Sir lastnail

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Re: 12 new subs- technically possible?
Reply #1 - Jan 31^st, 2012 at 10:45pm

After the monumental f.ckup of the Collins class you'd think they would now realise that they are way out of their depths and need to handball it to another country with a proven track record in this area !!

Creating lots of jobs at the extreme risk of blowing 36 billion of tax payers money on making useless junk is not a good investment for the country !!

The problem with Australia is we have low caliber management who couldn't run a chook raffle in a pub Sad

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In August 2021, Newcastle Coroner Karen Dilks recorded that Lisa Shaw had died “due to complications of an AstraZeneca COVID vaccination”.

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Bobby.

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Re: 12 new subs- technically possible?
Reply #2 - Jan 31^st, 2012 at 10:50pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 31^st, 2012 at 10:45pm:

After the monumental f.ckup of the Collins class you'd think they would now realise that they are way out of their depths and need to handball it to another country with a proven track record in this area !!

Creating lots of jobs at the extreme risk of blowing 36 billion of tax payers money on making useless junk is not a good investment for the country !!

The problem with Australia is we have low caliber management who couldn't run a chook raffle in a pub Sad

Hi Nail,
Lets put it this way.
If you were a private investor & the Submarine Corporation came to you & said -

look we really stuffed up on the Collins but just trust us -
we'll get it right if you give us $36 billion of your money.

What would you say?

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Sir lastnail

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Re: 12 new subs- technically possible?
Reply #3 - Jan 31^st, 2012 at 10:51pm

Bobby. wrote on Jan 31^st, 2012 at 10:50pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 31^st, 2012 at 10:45pm:

After the monumental f.ckup of the Collins class you'd think they would now realise that they are way out of their depths and need to handball it to another country with a proven track record in this area !!

Creating lots of jobs at the extreme risk of blowing 36 billion of tax payers money on making useless junk is not a good investment for the country !!

The problem with Australia is we have low caliber management who couldn't run a chook raffle in a pub Sad

Hi Nail,
Lets put it this way.
If you were a private investor & the Submarine Corporation came to you & said -

look we really stuffed up on the Collins but just trust us -
we'll get it right if you give us $36 billion of your money.

What would you say?

Fill in the blanks

F___ O__

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In August 2021, Newcastle Coroner Karen Dilks recorded that Lisa Shaw had died “due to complications of an AstraZeneca COVID vaccination”.

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Sir lastnail Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 30101 Gender:	Re: 12 new subs- technically possible? Reply #4 - Jan 31^st, 2012 at 10:55pm Maybe they could learn something from the poms but it would probably go straight over their heads
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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 106765 Melbourne Gender:	Re: 12 new subs- technically possible? Reply #5 - Feb 1^st, 2012 at 5:57am Good doco type video Nail. Gives you an idea of what's involved in building a sub. Maybe it's just an idea for the Govt. in Australia to buy jobs & get re-elected?
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BigOl64 Gold Member Offline Posts: 14438 Townsville QLD Gender:	Re: 12 new subs- technically possible? Reply #6 - Feb 1^st, 2012 at 6:23am Probably the ONLY time I will ever agree with you two. Australia does not have the capacity to build anything high tech, we gave that up in the 70's and I doubt we could ever get back to a technologically capable nation. Bit friggen sad but there you go.
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Sir lastnail Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 30101 Gender:	Re: 12 new subs- technically possible? Reply #7 - Feb 1^st, 2012 at 10:36am Bobby. wrote on Feb 1^st, 2012 at 5:57am: Good doco type video Nail. Gives you an idea of what's involved in building a sub. Maybe it's just an idea for the Govt. in Australia to buy jobs & get re-elected? Maybe they should pay Holden and Ford to build the subs so they can create even more jobs LOL
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Bobby.

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Re: 12 new subs- technically possible?
Reply #8 - Feb 1^st, 2012 at 2:56pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Feb 1^st, 2012 at 10:36am:

Bobby. wrote on Feb 1^st, 2012 at 5:57am:

Good doco type video Nail.
Gives you an idea of what's involved in building a sub.
Maybe it's just an idea for the Govt. in Australia to buy jobs & get re-elected?

Maybe they should pay Holden and Ford to build the subs so they can create even more jobs Cheesy

LOL

Yes Nail,
I've changed my mind about this thread.
I now think it's a good idea because engineering people
like you & I can jump on the bandwagon & make lots of money
from such a large Govt. project.
Forget about taxpayers - we'll just pocket the money.

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chicken_lipsforme

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Re: 12 new subs- technically possible?
Reply #9 - Feb 3^rd, 2012 at 7:08am

Bobby. wrote on Jan 31^st, 2012 at 10:38pm:

Hi Everyone,
Do you think that after the debacle with the Collins subs that
we should pour $36 billion into more?
I don't think we have the technical capability to do it.
Out of 6 subs we have only 1 or 2 in service.
Will this just be another BER or Pink Batts fiasco?

http://www.pressdisplay.com/pressdisplay/viewer.aspx

Quote:

ANY decision not to build a new generation of home-grown submarines in Australia would be an admission of failure and would signal to the world that local industry was incapable of large-scale defence projects, the head of the Australian Submarine Corporation has warned. Steve Ludlam said a decision not to build a new Australianmade fleet of submarines to eventually replace the Collinsclass would waste a generation of skills and knowledge and rob the country of a vibrant shipbuilding industry. Mr Ludlam’s plea for the government to build homemade submarines follows growing calls for it to consider the cheaper option of buying ready-made, proven submarines from overseas rather than risk a repeat of the troubled Collins-class fleet. The Gillard government has said it would build 12 conventionally powered submarines in Adelaide, but has not yet said whether they would be largely Australian-made or a locally constructed off-the-shelf European boat. Writing in The Australian today, Mr Ludlam says the technical challenges of building and maintaining the Collinsclass fleet have created a valuable core of experience in submarine knowhow. ‘‘I believe the difficulties encountered in the Collins program to this day present a powerful argument in favour of the commonwealth building the next generation of submarines – not admitting failure, turning tail and telling the world that Australia lacks the capability to build sophisticated defence hardware,’’ said Mr Ludlam, who is managing director of the ASC, which built and maintains the six Collins-class submarines. The construction of 12 homemade son-of-collins submarines has been estimated at up to $36 billion compared with about $9bn for European-designed boats that are smaller and have a shorter range. A report by the Kokoda Foundation argues that an Australian-made fleet could be built for $18bn. This estimate, however, is rejected by submariners and military experts.

It's all pie in the sky stuff Bobby.
The reality and bottom line is the Navy hasn't been able to effectively crew our submarines for over 25 years.
And despite the Navy's attempts to attract personnel either from surface ships, directly from civvie street or from the RN in a variety of ways including massive pay rises, all has been in vain.
Even back in the days of the Oberon class boat, only two could be at sea at the one time whilst the other four sat alongside.
The 'new' Navy has taken on the USN sub manning system, where an entire boats crew will be sent ashore, whilst the next crew will man the boat and then take it to sea on patrol.
This blue, red, white watch system has worked well for the Yanks for some decades, and the system suits our climate of low staffing levels to a degree.
But 12 boats.
Pigs will fly first.

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"Another boat, another policy failure from the Howard government"

Julia Gillard
Shadow Health Minister
2003.

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 106765 Melbourne Gender:	Re: 12 new subs- technically possible? Reply #10 - Feb 3^rd, 2012 at 7:43am Good post chicken, Yes half their problem is trying to find a crew. Who- after all would want to get into one of those steel coffins?
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chicken_lipsforme

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Re: 12 new subs- technically possible?
Reply #11 - Feb 3^rd, 2012 at 2:39pm

Bobby. wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2012 at 7:43am:

Good post chicken,
Yes half their problem is trying to find a crew.
Who- after all would want to get into one of those steel coffins?

Not I.
I remember working onboard an 'O' boat back in the seventies a few times when HMAS Platypus in Sydney was functioning.
Very unpleasant place to be in even when on the surface alongside, let alone at 300 ft plus under.
They are a different breed of men those submariners are, with a very proud history.
Unfortunately history is all they have left today though.
Any new class of boat could theoretically make a difference to attracting new members, but we will see.

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"Another boat, another policy failure from the Howard government"

Julia Gillard
Shadow Health Minister
2003.

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It_is_the_Darkness

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Re: 12 new subs- technically possible?
Reply #12 - Feb 8^th, 2012 at 8:54am

As a keen Diver and someone who loves all things Deep Sea Submersible etc.
Also, someone who's brother has left the Navy telling me how it has just gone to rot but is just a big sex orgy with all the women enlisting.

...Australia would be best served by concentrating technology and production upon producing state of the art 'Mini-Subs'.
These Mini-Subs would be better to protect our vast shoreline in a defensive measure. Cheaper to run and maintain, more 'efficient' and harder to destroy if x7 were coming at you rather than just one big one.
They could be personnelled by just x5 people at the most. They could be made to go deeper than the larger vessels and although their range would not be as far ...like I said "Defensively" we are justified.

Australia has the world's best Commercial Diving Academies. We have a quality Fishing Fleet, good Fishing stocks due to conservatism.
I can't see why we couldn't have the 'magic' to start producing quality Mini-Subs for Military, Rescue, Science, Tourism, etc needs.
We all know the Feds stifle manufacturing here in Australia for the benefit of other nations. The Feds only want Australia to be a 'Service Provider Nation' like the UK and just be a 'Natural Resource' for the taking for other nations. China wants our Whale Shark Fins now. Roll Eyes

$36 BILLION would be best spent on x230 Mini Subs around our coast (that could rescue as well as protect). But maybe the Military has more dollars than cents? Huh

Anyway, why do we need so much money for the Military for such 'large' OFFENSIVE Subs like the Collins?
Oh, yes - its not for our defence, its for our Mercenary missions for the UK and USA. Roll Eyes

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chicken_lipsforme

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Re: 12 new subs- technically possible?
Reply #13 - Feb 8^th, 2012 at 11:59am

It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 8:54am:

As a keen Diver and someone who loves all things Deep Sea Submersible etc.
Also, someone who's brother has left the Navy telling me how it has just gone to rot but is just a big sex orgy with all the women enlisting.

...Australia would be best served by concentrating technology and production upon producing state of the art 'Mini-Subs'.
These Mini-Subs would be better to protect our vast shoreline in a defensive measure. Cheaper to run and maintain, more 'efficient' and harder to destroy if x7 were coming at you rather than just one big one.
They could be personnelled by just x5 people at the most. They could be made to go deeper than the larger vessels and although their range would not be as far ...like I said "Defensively" we are justified.

Australia has the world's best Commercial Diving Academies. We have a quality Fishing Fleet, good Fishing stocks due to conservatism.
I can't see why we couldn't have the 'magic' to start producing quality Mini-Subs for Military, Rescue, Science, Tourism, etc needs.
We all know the Feds stifle manufacturing here in Australia for the benefit of other nations. The Feds only want Australia to be a 'Service Provider Nation' like the UK and just be a 'Natural Resource' for the taking for other nations. China wants our Whale Shark Fins now. Roll Eyes

$36 BILLION would be best spent on x230 Mini Subs around our coast (that could rescue as well as protect). But maybe the Military has more dollars than cents? Huh

Anyway, why do we need so much money for the Military for such 'large' OFFENSIVE Subs like the Collins?
Oh, yes - its not for our defence, its for our Mercenary missions for the UK and USA. Roll Eyes

I must admit I missed out on all those sex orgies when I was in, but never mind.
I like the idea though of the mini subs, but how capable are they when a destroyer or frigate is overhead dropping depth charges, and what is their offensive capability.
No point having mini subs for the Navy if they are just soft targets.
But they would be good for taking the chicky babes down for an underwater initiation though.

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"Another boat, another policy failure from the Howard government"

Julia Gillard
Shadow Health Minister
2003.

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It_is_the_Darkness

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Re: 12 new subs- technically possible?
Reply #14 - Feb 10^th, 2012 at 8:54pm

Well thats it really. More the merrier Wink

.

The stabilisers on the 'few' Australian ships send 2/3rds of the personel sea-sick continuously and they tend to be always in dock being 'serviced' on a low budget.

The mini-subs could be just as effective as that Argentinian who 'stingered' the Sheffield Wednesday in the Falklands war from upon a hill.

They would be faster and more manouverable. Sure they won't have as much ammunition, but chances are they wouldn't need so much after a successful first volley.

Think of the Airforce equivalent: We are just flying a few 'Bombers' around but no 'small aircraft', so to speak. Its like an airforce with just Lancasters and no Spitfires and we know how effective Spitfires were. Wink

So for a 'real' Australian 'military' navy - we need a mass fleet of Mini-Subs that could be stationed conveniently around the continent at nearly every seaside town. Something the size of the Collins could work like an Aircraft Carrier and transport the mini-subs to a greater range for a more effective attack.
Underwater, there is now threat of rough seas, etc. So while some battle-ship is in the throws of a storm and trying to kick off depth charges that may or may not be neat the vicinity of the mini-sub. It quietly slips around underwater and sets off a few torpedos from range.

The Nipponese and Germans 'failed' at the mini-subs.
I'm sure we can succeed. Sure beats our hapless airforce Roll Eyes

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Poll
Question: Do we have the technical ability to build 12 new top subs?
yes 9 (52.9%) no 7 (41.2%) don't know 1 (5.9%) Total votes: 17 « Created by: Bobby. on: Mar 3^rd, 2012 at 6:06pm »