abu_rashid wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 7:16pm:




Abu,

Scripture does not confirm, rather, it contradicts the 'truth' which you declare......




Genesis 21:10
Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.


Genesis 21:12
And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.


Galatians 4:22
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23  But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24  Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25  For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27  For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28  Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29  But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30  Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31  So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.


ISLAM = = is after the flesh [i.e. is 'after' the war booty!!] .

ISLAM is bondage.

Slaves of Allah.

Slaves of the curse upon mankind.




Eyes to see ?




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What say's the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob ?

Psalms 146:8
The LORD openeth the eyes of the blind: the LORD raiseth them that are bowed down: the LORD loveth the righteous:
9  The LORD preserveth the strangers; he relieveth the fatherless and widow: but the way of the wicked he turneth upside down.
10  The LORD shall reign for ever, even thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye the LORD.






Abu,
Do you, every day, speak the truth in your heart ?

It is a simple question.

Do you speak the truth in your heart ?



Psalms 15:1
LORD, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?
2  He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.
3  He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour.
4  In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoureth them that fear the LORD. He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not.
5  He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved.

OR, are you, just like your master, your lord ???




n.b.
According to the Koran [i.e. according to Allah himself], 'Allah is the best of schemers.' [.....the best deceiver]





Google;
99 names of allah, deceiver




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Play your game Abu.

And walk your path of deceit, serving YOUR master,.....fighting against the 'unbelievers'.

THAT, is your choice.

That, is the path [of lies] which you have chosen.



LOL


Abu,
The Koran declares that, 'Allah is the best of schemers.' [.....the best deceiver]

And some men break their covenants.

But the God of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob does not break his covenant with his people.



Deuteronomy 31:20
For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant.
21  And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.


Psalms 89:34
My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.


Malachi 3:6
For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.


Isaiah 44:1
Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen:
2  Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.


Isaiah 40:1
Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
2  Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins.
3  The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.



And in the Bible, the *God of Israel*, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, is attributed thus,


Job 12:16
With him is strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver are his.


Psalms 2:1
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2  The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3  Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4  He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5  Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6  Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

Psalms 83:3
They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones.
4  They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
5  For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee:
6  The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes;
7  Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre;
8  Assur also is joined with them: they have holpen the children of Lot. Selah.




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Yadda wrote on Feb 4^th, 2012 at 2:56pm:




LOL

about 'The Sana'a Manuscripts'....


Quote:


http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/quran1.php

Yadda wrote on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 1:24pm:


It's amusing to hear a Christian make such a statement, since you are probably completely unaware what the DSS even contain. In fact they differ significantly in thousands of passages from the modern copies of the OT.

Quote:
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls)

There's also many texts in the DSS that do not exist in the modern day OT.

On top of this, there is also the Samaritan Torah, which disagrees quite significantly with the Jewish Torah. In fact the language of the Jewish Torah compared to that of the Samaritan Torah is like comparing the language of an adult to that of a small child. The Hebrew of the Jewish Torah frequently mixes up grammatical gender and is riddled with all sorts of language mistakes, indicating it is the inferior text that was probably plagiarised from the Samaritan Torah.

Did your pastor only tell you about the parts that match up? And leave out all the bits about the divergences? I'm not surprised, most Christians are under the impression the DSS confirmed the textual integrity of their books, it did not.

Soren, like the DSS the Yemeni scrolls could well have been the property of an obscure sect. There were several heretical sects in the history of Islam who may well have had deviant texts.

The simple fact is though the vast pool of memorisers and the codification of the text for mainstream Muslims preserved it faithfully till this day.

Christians cannot handle this fact, and so they resort to such pathetic arguments to try and invent some alternative history that matches theirs.

Here's some interesting facts about the DSS for you Yadda:

1.The Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in eleven caves along the northwest shore of the Dead Sea between the years 1947 and 1956. The area is 13 miles east of Jerusalem and is 1300 feet below sea level. The mostly fragmented texts, are numbered according to the cave that they came out of. They have been called the greatest manuscript discovery of modern times. See a Dead Sea Scroll Jar.

2. Only Caves 1 and 11 have produced relatively intact manuscripts. Discovered in 1952, Cave 4 produced the largest find. About 15,000 fragments from more than 500 manuscripts were found.
3. In all, scholars have identified the remains of about 825 to 870 separate scrolls.

4. The Scrolls can be divided into two categories—biblical and non-biblical. Fragments of every book of the Hebrew canon (Old Testament) have been discovered except for the book of Esther.

5. There are now identified among the scrolls, 19 copies of the Book of Isaiah, 25 copies of Deuteronomy and 30 copies of the Psalms .

6. Prophecies by Ezekiel, Jeremiah and Daniel not found in the Bible are written in the Scrolls.

7. The Isaiah Scroll, found relatively intact, is 1000 years older than any previously known copy of Isaiah. In fact, the scrolls are the oldest group of Old Testament manuscripts ever found.

8. In the Scrolls are found never before seen psalms attributed to King David and Joshua.

9.There are nonbiblical writings along the order of commentaries on the OT, paraphrases that expand on the Law, rule books of the community, war conduct, thanksgiving psalms, hymnic compositions, benedictions, liturgical texts, and sapiential (wisdom) writings.

10. The Scrolls are for the most part, written in Hebrew, but there are many written in Aramaic. Aramaic was the common language of the Jews of Palestine for the last two centuries B.C. and of the first two centuries A.D. The discovery of the Scrolls has greatly enhanced our knowledge of these two languages. In addition, there are a few texts written in Greek.

11. The Scrolls appear to be the library of a Jewish sect. The library was hidden away in caves around the outbreak of the First Jewish Revolt (A.D. 66-70) as the Roman army advanced against the rebel Jews.

12. Near the caves are the ancient ruins of Qumran. They were excavated in the early 1950's and appear to be connected with the scrolls.

13. The Dead Sea Scrolls were most likely written by the Essenes during the period from about 200 B.C. to 68 C.E./A.D. The Essenes are mentioned by Josephus and in a few other sources, but not in the New testament. The Essenes were a strict Torah observant, Messianic, apocalyptic, baptist, wilderness, new covenant Jewish sect. They were led by a priest they called the "Teacher of Righteousness," who was opposed and possibly killed by the establishment priesthood in Jerusalem.

14. The enemies of the Qumran community were called the "Sons of Darkness"; they called themselves the "Sons of Light," "the poor," and members of "the Way." They thought of themselves as "the holy ones," who lived in "the house of holiness," because "the Holy Spirit" dwelt with them.

15. The last words of Joseph, Judah, Levi, Naphtali, and Amram (the father of Moses) are written down in the Scrolls.

16. One of the most curious scrolls is the Copper Scroll. Discovered in Cave 3, this scroll records a list of 64 underground hiding places throughout the land of Israel. The deposits are to contain certain amounts of gold, silver, aromatics, and manuscripts. These are believed to be treasures from the Temple at Jerusalem, that were hidden away for safekeeping.

17. The Temple Scroll, found in Cave 11, is the longest scroll. Its present total length is 26.7 feet (8.148 meters). The overall length of the scroll must have been over 28 feet (8.75m).

18. The scrolls contain previously unknown stories about biblical figures such as Enoch, Abraham, and Noah. The story of Abraham includes an explanation why God asked Abraham to sacrifice his only son Isaac.

19. The scrolls are most commonly made of animal skins, but also papyrus and one of copper. They are written with a carbon-based ink, from right to left, using no punctuation except for an occasional paragraph indentation. In fact, in some cases, there are not even spaces between the words.

20. The Scrolls have revolutionized textual criticism of the Old Testament. Interestingly, now with manuscripts predating the medieval period, we find these texts in substantial agreement with the Masoretic text as well as widely variant forms.

21. Some of the Dead Sea Scrolls actually appeared for sale on June 1, 1954 in the Wall Street Journal. The advertisement read — "The Four Dead Sea Scrolls: Biblical manuscripts dating back to at least 200 BC are for sale. This would be an ideal gift to an educational or religious institution by an individual or group. Box F206."

22. Although the Qumran community existed during the time of the ministry of Jesus, none of the Scrolls refer to Him, nor do they mention any of His follower's described in the New Testament.

23. The major intact texts, from Caves 1 & 11, were published by the late fifties and are now housed in the Shrine of the Book museum in Jerusalem.

24. Since the late fifties, about 40% of the Scrolls, mostly fragments from Cave 4, remained unpublished and were unaccessible. It wasn't until 1991, 44 years after the discovery of the first Scroll, after the pressure for publication mounted, that general access was made available to photographs of the Scrolls. In November of 1991 the photos were published by the Biblical Archaeological Society in a nonofficial edition; a computer reconstruction, based on a concordance, was announced; the Huntington Library pledged to open their microfilm files of all the scroll photographs.

25. The Dead Sea Scrolls enhance our knowledge of both Judaism and Christianity. They represent a non-rabbinic form of Judaism and provide a wealth of comparative material for New Testament scholars, including many important parallels to the Jesus movement. They show Christianity to be rooted in Judaism and have been called the evolutionary link between the two.

---

The points I find most interesting are that there's entire books and psalms that do not appear in your Bible and there's an entire book (Esther) which is simply not found. Also even though the sect who wrote these scrolls existed in the time Christianity was supposedly founded, they never even make mention of it.

In fact only 35% of the DSS matches exactly with the standard Jewish OT. A further 5% matches with the Greek translations which are also part of the modern Christian translations. The remainder diverges significantly from your OT. How on earth you can think that establishes the textual integrity of your Bible is beyond me.

Perhaps oral traditions which are maintained by a priestly class.

The Qur'an was completely committed to memory by all strata of society in all generations from the time of Muhammad (pbuh) until this very moment we are discussing this. Along with this the texts also augmented the preservation of the Qur'an.

Yadda wrote on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 12:44pm:


Yadda, speaking of the truth, can you speak the truth of this Bible fabrication?

Proof That Jealous Rabbis Changed Bible

Bible Says Ishmael 14 Years Older Than Isaac

Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael.
Genesis 16:16

Abraham was 100 years old when Isaac was born.
Genesis 21:5

100 - 86 = 14!

Bible claims that Teenage Ishmael (about 17 years old) Sent Away For Teasing Younger Brother:

The child grew and was weaned, and on the day Isaac was weaned Abraham held a great feast.
But Sarah saw Ishmael--the son of Abraham and her Egyptian servant Hagar--making fun of her son, Isaac.
and she said to Abraham, "Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac."...But God said to him, "Do not be so distressed about the boy and your maidservant. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you...
Gensis 21:8-12


Isaac was weaned so was 2 or 3 years-old! So Ishmael was 16 or 17!

Bible Says Ishmael sent away as a Baby!

Was Ishmael and Hagar sent to the desert before or after the birth of Isaac? If we were to accept the Biblical version, we would encounter a number of inconsistencies and contradictions. It is clear from the story in Gen. 21:14-19 that Ishmael was a little baby at that time. For example according to Gen. 16:16 Abraham was 86 years old when Ishmael was born. And according to Gen. 21:5 Abraham was one hundred years old when Isaac was born. It follows that Ishmael was already fourteen years old when his younger brother Isaac was born. According to Gen. 21:8-19 the incident took place after Isaac was weaned. Biblical scholars tell us the child was probably weaned at about the age of three. Thus, it follows that when Hagar and Ishmael were taken away Ishmael was a full-grown teenager, seventeen years old. However, the profile of Ishmael in Gen 21:14-19 is a small baby and not a full-grown teenager. Why?

Genesis 21:14-21

14 Early next morning Abraham took some food and a full water-skin and gave them to Hagar. He set the child on her shoulder and sent her away, and she wandered about in the wilderness of Beersheba. 15 When the water in the skin was finished, she thrust the child under a bush, 16 then went and sat down some way off, about a bowshot distant. How can I watch the child die? she said, and sat there, weeping bitterly. 17 God heard the child crying, and the angel of God called from heaven to Hagar, What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid: God has heard the child crying where you laid him. 18 Go, lift the child and hold him in your arms, because I shall make of him a great nation. 19 Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well full of water; she went to it, filled the water-skin, and gave the child a drink. 20 God was with the child as he grew up. He lived in the wilderness of Paran and became an archer; 21 and his mother got him a wife from Egypt. (The Revised English Bible)

1st) First, the original Hebrew for Gen. 21:14 is " and put the bread and water on her shoulder AND the boy." Anyone fluent in Hebrew can confirm this! This reading is still rendered in the Revised English Bible; however, other Bible publishers possibly aware of the discrepancy decided to translate the verse slightly different; however, we can see their trick! How would a mother carry a seventeen-year-old teenager on her shoulder? Certainly he was probably strong enough to carry his mother. Ishmael must have been a baby!

2nd) Second, in Gen 21:15 we are told that Hagar put the child under one of the bushes. Ishmael must have been a baby and not a teenager!

3rd) Third, in Gen 21:16 we are told that Hagar sat away so she did not have to see the child die before her eyes. Is this the profile of a husky seventeen-year-old teenager who probably was capable of being worried about his mother dying before his eyes? Or is it obviously a profile of a small helpless baby? Ishmael must have been a baby and not a teenager!

4th) According to Gen 21:17-18, the angels told Hagar lift the child and hold him in your arms. Is a seventeen-year-old man the object of being lifted up and held in one's arms by a woman while CRYING? Or is it the reference of a small child. Ishmael must have been a baby and not a teenager!

5th) According to Gen 21:19 we are told that Hagar filled the bottle with water and gave the child a drink. One would expect a seventeen year old to bring water to his mother instead. Ishmael must have been a baby and not a teenager!

6th) According to Gen 21:14 Abraham puts the food and water on Hagar's shoulder. Why doesn't the strong husky seventeen-year old Ishmael offer to carry the food and water? Ishmael must have been a baby and not a teenager!

Yadda, you haven't addressed the obviously fabricated contradictory story in Genesis about Ishmael.

Do you believe that Hajar carried her 17 year-old son on her shoulder?

If the Bible contradicts itself, doesn't that mean it is made up and not the word of God?