Yadda, you haven't addressed the obviously fabricated contradictory story in Genesis about Ishmael.

Do you believe that Hajar carried her 17 year-old son on her shoulder?

If the Bible contradicts itself, doesn't that mean it is made up and not the word of God?

Soren wrote on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 5:33pm:



I have already explained that is not what the Quran says. It says "he reached a place where the sun set over a murky water"

So now that we have cleared that up, how can a woman be expected to carry around her 17 year-old son?

If there was a atom's worth of honesty in you at all, you would admit that the whole story about Ishmael in Genesis was fabricated by jealous rabbis.

falah wrote on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 2:18pm:


I offer two possible solutions.

1  She was a weight lifting dyke and he was a midget.

2  It did not happen because the torah bible and koran are all made up by humans to suit their own particular religious and political requirements.

falah wrote on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 8:34pm:



Bullsh!t.

So Yadda ready to concede that your Genesis version of Abraham and Ishmael is a fabrication?

falah wrote on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 9:30pm:


Done. I have studied Arabic for a few years and so I am baaaaack.

Yusuf Ali on Quran 14:4: We sent not a messenger except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases: and He is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom.

Which means every language, every culture, every nation has their own Islamic prophets!

Islamic messenger of Japan:

Prophet Mitsubishi married 9 yrs old Maria Osawa, fathered little suzuki and big brother honda. Too bad, Suzuki committed harakiri by suicide bombing and maria became a geisha.
You can look at Japanese Quran of Engine specification and handling manual. It is originally in Japanese and must be read in Kanji!

Oh yeah, what's Allah name in Japan? SUDHOKU!!!



Islamic Messenger of Jamaica:

Prophet Marley first name Bob loves to wear women' clothes while getting inspiration in the cave! He doesn't approve gay, yet wore an eyeliner, condemns pork and believe semen came from the back bone!
Allah's name in Jamaica is Al-Al-Al-Long... (A La La Long de long long long)


Islamic Messenger of Sweden.

Prophet ABBA, with 4 canonical hadiths from Anni-Frid "Frida" Lyngstad, Borrn Ulvaeus, Benny Andersson and Agnetha Faltskog.

The prophet led an army of dancing queens through Europe and the rest of the Disco world; Conquering each land, forcing them until they establish regular record playing 5 times a day, pay for the songs and CDs willingly while they are humbled.

Allah's name in Swedish is Beowulf!

Soren wrote on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 9:43pm:


This hadeeth could be translated in a number of ways. The translation you posted renders the Arabic "fee 'ayn hamiyah" as "in a spring of warm water". Another way to translate it would be "over the source of Hamitic people (Africa)" - Ham being one of the sons of Noah who's descendants settled in Africa.

From Arabia, the sun certainly does pass over Africa when it sets.

The Arabic word "hamiyah" could also mean "circular" or "hovering" amongst other things.

Another meaning for the Arabic word " 'ayn" is "assignment".

So a more accurate translation might be

"it (the sun) sets in a circular assignment"

. This would be pretty much like saying

"the sun is in an orbit"

.

falah,

If you want to believe that the story of Hagar and her son Ishmael, reveals a contradiction in the OT Bible, i'm happy for you to believe that.

I don't believe that proposition, which you assert.


You said,

"But the original hebrew does not have the punctuation that yu have chosen to use."

That is half true.    [.....surprise, surprise.   /sarc off ]

And neither does the original Hebrew have any punctuation.





The original Hebrew language, because it had no punctuation or vowels, relies heavily upon context for the meaning of text.

Google;
hebrew has no punctuation

Google;
hebrew has no vowels


It is a totally legitimate process to translate from Hebrew, into English, and to then place the punctuation [in the English], so that the narrative makes most sense.

Common sense would tell us this.

We already know, from the earlier narrative [Gen. 16:16, Gen. 21:5], that Ishmael was now a teenager.


So it makes no sense to place the punctuation [in the English translation], so as to place Hagar, carrying her teenage son, Ishmael.

Again, common sense would tell us this.



But the punctuation used in the World English Bible (WEB) does give the narrative a common sense meaning.

i.e.
We know from the earlier narrative, that Hagar's son Ishmael, is by now a teenager.
Abraham gave Hagar bread and a bottle of water, 'putting it on her shoulder', then Abraham brought her child to her.
And then Hagar and Ishmael left Abraham's camp.

Quote:



And as i said earlier;
Later, 'The water in the bottle was spent', clearly both Hagar and Ishmael were physically distressed, having no water, and both of them expected to die.

Hagar found a source of water, and she and the teenage Ishmael survived.



You want to read an English translation of Genesis 21 [a translation from the Hebrew which has no vowels, and no punctuation], which places the puntuation, so that Hagar is carrying her teenage son ?

Quote:


Of course you do.

And if you want to believe that, then i am happy for you to believe that version.



+++

What i believe, is that Ishmael was a teenager, when he and Hagar were 'cast out' by Abraham.
Abraham gave Hagar bread and a bottle of water, 'putting it on her shoulder', then Abraham brought her child to her.
And then Hagar and her teenage son, Ishmael, left Abraham's camp.