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Three Things About Islam (Read 21588 times)
falah
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Re: Three Things About Islam
Reply #45 - Feb 10th, 2012 at 2:18pm
 
Yadda, you haven't addressed the obviously fabricated contradictory story in Genesis about Ishmael.

Do you believe that Hajar carried her 17 year-old son on her shoulder?

If the Bible contradicts itself, doesn't that mean it is made up and not the word of God?
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Soren
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Re: Three Things About Islam
Reply #46 - Feb 10th, 2012 at 5:33pm
 
falah wrote on Feb 10th, 2012 at 2:09pm:
Yadda, you haven't addressed the obviously fabricated contradictory story in Genesis about Ishmael.

Do you believe that Hajar carried her 17 year-old son on her shoulder?

If the Bible contradicts itself, doesn't that mean it is made up and not the word of God?




On that basis, you have no reason to adhere to the Koran.

I just heard that the sun sets in a mud puddle, according to the Koran and was confirmed by Mohammed in hadith. If that's OK with you, Hajar carrying a 17 boy should pose no difficulty. At least that is a possibility.




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falah
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Re: Three Things About Islam
Reply #47 - Feb 10th, 2012 at 6:33pm
 
Soren wrote on Feb 10th, 2012 at 5:33pm:
falah wrote on Feb 10th, 2012 at 2:09pm:
Yadda, you haven't addressed the obviously fabricated contradictory story in Genesis about Ishmael.

Do you believe that Hajar carried her 17 year-old son on her shoulder?

If the Bible contradicts itself, doesn't that mean it is made up and not the word of God?




On that basis, you have no reason to adhere to the Koran.

I just heard that the sun sets in a mud puddle, according to the Koran and was confirmed by Mohammed in hadith.



I have already explained that is not what the Quran says. It says "he reached a place where the sun set over a murky water"

So now that we have cleared that up, how can a woman be expected to carry around her 17 year-old son?

If there was a atom's worth of honesty in you at all, you would admit that the whole story about Ishmael in Genesis was fabricated by jealous rabbis.
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Baronvonrort
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Re: Three Things About Islam
Reply #48 - Feb 10th, 2012 at 6:47pm
 
falah wrote on Feb 10th, 2012 at 6:33pm:
I have already explained that is not what the Quran says. It says "he reached a place where the sun set over a murky water"

So now that we have cleared that up,


You have explained nothing.

Read all translations by ticking boxes on left side of page by Pickthal,Yusef Ali,Shakir,Muhsin Khan,etc- The words that are in brackets do not appear in arabic text
http://quran.com/18/86

Do you think everyone is stupid falah?
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Adamant
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Re: Three Things About Islam
Reply #49 - Feb 10th, 2012 at 6:53pm
 
falah wrote on Feb 10th, 2012 at 2:18pm:
Yadda, you haven't addressed the obviously fabricated contradictory story in Genesis about Ishmael.

Do you believe that Hajar carried her 17 year-old son on her shoulder?

If the Bible contradicts itself, doesn't that mean it is made up and not the word of God?


I offer two possible solutions.

1  She was a weight lifting dyke and he was a midget.

2  It did not happen because the torah bible and koran are all made up by humans to suit their own particular religious and political requirements.
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falah
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Re: Three Things About Islam
Reply #50 - Feb 10th, 2012 at 8:34pm
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 10th, 2012 at 6:47pm:
falah wrote on Feb 10th, 2012 at 6:33pm:
I have already explained that is not what the Quran says. It says "he reached a place where the sun set over a murky water"

So now that we have cleared that up,


You have explained nothing.

Read all translations by ticking boxes on left side of page by Pickthal,Yusef Ali,Shakir,Muhsin Khan,etc- The words that are in brackets do not appear in arabic text
http://quran.com/18/86

Do you think everyone is stupid falah?


Ever studied Arabic? I have in 3 different universities.


...


Note the preposition
"في"
in the sentence? Normally it is taken to mean "in". However sometimes it can mean "on/over.

An example is here in the Quran 20:71

...

[Pharaoh] said, "You believed him before I gave you permission. Indeed, he is your leader who has taught you magic. So I will surely cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, and I will crucify you on the trunks of palm trees, and you will surely know which of us is more severe in [giving] punishment and more enduring."



Try the other translations. The preposition
"في"
is translated as "on" not "in".


...

Do you feel secure that He, Who is over the heaven (Allah), will not cause the earth to sink with you, then behold it shakes (as in an earthquake)?

In this verse (67:16), the preposition
"في"
should also read "over/above", but only  Muhsin Khan has translated it correctly.

There are also hadeeth where the meaning of
"في"
is  "over" not "in"
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« Last Edit: Feb 10th, 2012 at 8:41pm by falah »  

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Soren
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Re: Three Things About Islam
Reply #51 - Feb 10th, 2012 at 8:57pm
 
falah wrote on Feb 10th, 2012 at 8:34pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 10th, 2012 at 6:47pm:
falah wrote on Feb 10th, 2012 at 6:33pm:
I have already explained that is not what the Quran says. It says "he reached a place where the sun set over a murky water"

So now that we have cleared that up,


You have explained nothing.

Read all translations by ticking boxes on left side of page by Pickthal,Yusef Ali,Shakir,Muhsin Khan,etc- The words that are in brackets do not appear in arabic text
http://quran.com/18/86

Do you think everyone is stupid falah?


Ever studied Arabic? I have in 3 different universities.


http://c00022506.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/18_86.png


Note the preposition
"في"
in the sentence? Normally it is taken to mean "in". However sometimes it can mean "on/over.

An example is here in the Quran 20:71

http://c00022506.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/20_71.png

[Pharaoh] said, "You believed him before I gave you permission. Indeed, he is your leader who has taught you magic. So I will surely cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, and I will crucify you on the trunks of palm trees, and you will surely know which of us is more severe in [giving] punishment and more enduring."



Try the other translations. The preposition
"في"
is translated as "on" not "in".


http://c00022506.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/67_16.png

Do you feel secure that He, Who is over the heaven (Allah), will not cause the earth to sink with you, then behold it shakes (as in an earthquake)?

In this verse (67:16), the preposition
"في"
should also read "over/above", but only  Muhsin Khan has translated it correctly.

There are also hadeeth where the meaning of
"في"
is  "over" not "in"



Bullsh!t.

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falah
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Re: Three Things About Islam
Reply #52 - Feb 10th, 2012 at 9:30pm
 
Soren wrote on Feb 10th, 2012 at 8:57pm:
falah wrote on Feb 10th, 2012 at 8:34pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 10th, 2012 at 6:47pm:
falah wrote on Feb 10th, 2012 at 6:33pm:
I have already explained that is not what the Quran says. It says "he reached a place where the sun set over a murky water"

So now that we have cleared that up,


You have explained nothing.

Read all translations by ticking boxes on left side of page by Pickthal,Yusef Ali,Shakir,Muhsin Khan,etc- The words that are in brackets do not appear in arabic text
http://quran.com/18/86

Do you think everyone is stupid falah?


Ever studied Arabic? I have in 3 different universities.


http://c00022506.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/18_86.png


Note the preposition
"في"
in the sentence? Normally it is taken to mean "in". However sometimes it can mean "on/over.

An example is here in the Quran 20:71

http://c00022506.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/20_71.png

[Pharaoh] said, "You believed him before I gave you permission. Indeed, he is your leader who has taught you magic. So I will surely cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, and I will crucify you on the trunks of palm trees, and you will surely know which of us is more severe in [giving] punishment and more enduring."



Try the other translations. The preposition
"في"
is translated as "on" not "in".


http://c00022506.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/67_16.png

Do you feel secure that He, Who is over the heaven (Allah), will not cause the earth to sink with you, then behold it shakes (as in an earthquake)?

In this verse (67:16), the preposition
"في"
should also read "over/above", but only  Muhsin Khan has translated it correctly.

There are also hadeeth where the meaning of
"في"
is  "over" not "in"



Bullsh!t.



Study Arabic for a few years and get back to me
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falah
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Re: Three Things About Islam
Reply #53 - Feb 10th, 2012 at 9:33pm
 
So Yadda ready to concede that your Genesis version of Abraham and Ishmael is a fabrication?
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Soren
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Re: Three Things About Islam
Reply #54 - Feb 10th, 2012 at 9:43pm
 
falah wrote on Feb 10th, 2012 at 9:30pm:
Soren wrote on Feb 10th, 2012 at 8:57pm:
Bullsh!t.



Study Arabic for a few years and get back to me



How does this go in Arabic, Oh bearded teacher?

Sunan Abu Dawud 3991—Abu Dharr said: I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water
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Soren
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Re: Three Things About Islam
Reply #55 - Feb 10th, 2012 at 10:16pm
 
falah wrote on Feb 10th, 2012 at 9:30pm:
Study Arabic for a few years and get back to me


Done. I have studied Arabic for a few years and so I am baaaaack.

Yusuf Ali on Quran 14:4: We sent not a messenger except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases: and He is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom.

Which means every language, every culture, every nation has their own Islamic prophets!

Islamic messenger of Japan:

Prophet Mitsubishi married 9 yrs old Maria Osawa, fathered little suzuki and big brother honda. Too bad, Suzuki committed harakiri by suicide bombing and maria became a geisha.
You can look at Japanese Quran of Engine specification and handling manual. It is originally in Japanese and must be read in Kanji!

Oh yeah, what's Allah name in Japan? SUDHOKU!!!



Islamic Messenger of Jamaica:

Prophet Marley first name Bob loves to wear women' clothes while getting inspiration in the cave! He doesn't approve gay, yet wore an eyeliner, condemns pork and believe semen came from the back bone!
Allah's name in Jamaica is Al-Al-Al-Long... (A La La Long de long long long)


Islamic Messenger of Sweden.

Prophet ABBA, with 4 canonical hadiths from Anni-Frid "Frida" Lyngstad, Borrn Ulvaeus, Benny Andersson and Agnetha Faltskog.

The prophet led an army of dancing queens through Europe and the rest of the Disco world; Conquering each land, forcing them until they establish regular record playing 5 times a day, pay for the songs and CDs willingly while they are humbled.

Allah's name in Swedish is Beowulf!
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Re: Three Things About Islam
Reply #56 - Feb 11th, 2012 at 12:12am
 
falah wrote on Feb 10th, 2012 at 2:09pm:
Yadda, you haven't addressed the obviously fabricated contradictory story in Genesis about Ishmael.

Do you believe that Hajar carried her 17 year-old son on her shoulder?

If the Bible contradicts itself, doesn't that mean it is made up and not the word of God?





falah,

Clearly you have an agenda, and you want the facts to fit your agenda.



falah,

I have no 'proof' for you.

You should believe whatever you want to believe.

We all do.




Here is the information which you presented in post #42

Quote:
Was Ishmael and Hagar sent to the desert before or after the birth of Isaac? If we were to accept the Biblical version, we would encounter a number of inconsistencies and contradictions. It is clear from the story in Gen. 21:14-19 that Ishmael was a little baby at that time. For example according to Gen. 16:16 Abraham was 86 years old when Ishmael was born. And according to Gen. 21:5 Abraham was one hundred years old when Isaac was born. It follows that Ishmael was already fourteen years old when his younger brother Isaac was born. According to Gen. 21:8-19 the incident took place after Isaac was weaned. Biblical scholars tell us the child was probably weaned at about the age of three. Thus, it follows that when Hagar and Ishmael were taken away Ishmael was a full-grown teenager, seventeen years old. However, the profile of Ishmael in Gen 21:14-19 is a small baby and not a full-grown teenager. Why?

Genesis 21:14-21

14 Early next morning Abraham took some food and a full water-skin and gave them to Hagar. He set the child on her shoulder and sent her away, and she wandered about in the wilderness of Beersheba. 15 When the water in the skin was finished, she thrust the child under a bush, 16 then went and sat down some way off, about a bowshot distant. How can I watch the child die? she said, and sat there, weeping bitterly. 17 God heard the child crying, and the angel of God called from heaven to Hagar, What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid: God has heard the child crying where you laid him. 18 Go, lift the child and hold him in your arms, because I shall make of him a great nation. 19 Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well full of water; she went to it, filled the water-skin, and gave the child a drink. 20 God was with the child as he grew up. He lived in the wilderness of Paran and became an archer; 21 and his mother got him a wife from Egypt. (The Revised English Bible)


sourced from.....
http://www.why-christians-convert-to-islam.com/nice201.htm







falah,

This is what i believe.....

Clearly Ishmael was a teenager, when he and Hagar were 'cast out' by Abraham.

Here [below] is another Bible translation, with different punctuation [punctuation different, to The Revised English Bible].

A punctuation which does not suggest that Hagar carried her son out of Abraham's camp.

i.e.
Abraham gave Hagar a water bottle, Abraham gave Hagar her child.

And then Hagar and Ishmael left Abraham's camp.

Quote:

21:14 Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread and a bottle of water, and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder; and gave her the child, and sent her away. She departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.
21:15 The water in the bottle was spent, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.
21:16 She went and sat down opposite him, a good way off, about a bow shot away. For she said, "Don’t let me see the death of the child." She sat over against him, and lifted up her voice, and wept.
21:17 God heard the voice of the boy.
The angel of God called to Hagar out of the sky, and said to her, "What ails you, Hagar? Don’t be afraid. For God has heard the voice of the boy where he is.
21:18 Get up, lift up the boy, and hold him in your hand. For I will make him a great nation."
21:19 God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water. She went, filled the bottle with water, and gave the boy drink.
21:20 God was with the boy, and he grew. He lived in the wilderness, and became, as he grew up, an archer.
21:21 He lived in the wilderness of Paran. His mother took a wife for him out of the land of Egypt.
World English Bible (WEB)




Later, 'The water in the bottle was spent', clearly both Hagar and Ishmael were physically distressed, having no water, and both of them expected to both die.

Hagar found a source of water, and she and the teenage Ishmael survived.




+++


Yadda, you haven't addressed the obviously fabricated contradictory story in Genesis about Ishmael.


I have now.

There is no,
'obviously fabricated contradictory story in Genesis'
.
.......except in your mind.



Do you believe that Hajar carried her 17 year-old son on her shoulder?


No.



If the Bible contradicts itself, doesn't that mean it is made up and not the word of God?


You have not yet demonstrated that the Bible contradicts itself.

All you have proved [and demonstrated] is that moslems do not want to believe that the Bible is the authentic and inspired word of God.




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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
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falah
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Re: Three Things About Islam
Reply #57 - Feb 11th, 2012 at 1:22am
 
Soren wrote on Feb 10th, 2012 at 9:43pm:
How does this go in Arabic, Oh bearded teacher?

Sunan Abu Dawud 3991—Abu Dharr said: I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water


This hadeeth could be translated in a number of ways. The translation you posted renders the Arabic "fee 'ayn hamiyah" as "in a spring of warm water". Another way to translate it would be "over the source of Hamitic people (Africa)" - Ham being one of the sons of Noah who's descendants settled in Africa.

From Arabia, the sun certainly does pass over Africa when it sets.

The Arabic word "hamiyah" could also mean "circular" or "hovering" amongst other things.

Another meaning for the Arabic word " 'ayn" is "assignment".

So a more accurate translation might be
"it (the sun) sets in a circular assignment"
. This would be pretty much like saying
"the sun is in an orbit"
.


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« Last Edit: Feb 11th, 2012 at 11:36am by falah »  

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falah
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Re: Three Things About Islam
Reply #58 - Feb 11th, 2012 at 1:30am
 
Yadda wrote on Feb 11th, 2012 at 12:12am:
falah,

This is what i believe.....

Clearly Ishmael was a teenager, when he and Hagar were 'cast out' by Abraham.



Here [below] is another Bible translation, with different punctuation [punctuation different, to The Revised English Bible].

A punctuation which does not suggest that Hagar carried her son out of Abraham's camp.

i.e.
Abraham gave Hagar a water bottle, Abraham gave Hagar her child.

And then Hagar and Ishmael left Abraham's camp.

Quote:

21:14 Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread and a bottle of water, and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder; and gave her the child, and sent her away. She departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.
21:15 The water in the bottle was spent, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.
21:16 She went and sat down opposite him, a good way off, about a bow shot away. For she said, "Don’t let me see the death of the child." She sat over against him, and lifted up her voice, and wept.
21:17 God heard the voice of the boy.
The angel of God called to Hagar out of the sky, and said to her, "What ails you, Hagar? Don’t be afraid. For God has heard the voice of the boy where he is.
21:18 Get up, lift up the boy, and hold him in your hand. For I will make him a great nation."
21:19 God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water. She went, filled the bottle with water, and gave the boy drink.
21:20 God was with the boy, and he grew. He lived in the wilderness, and became, as he grew up, an archer.
21:21 He lived in the wilderness of Paran. His mother took a wife for him out of the land of Egypt.
World English Bible (WEB)




Later, 'The water in the bottle was spent', clearly both Hagar and Ishmael were physically distressed, having no water, and both of them expected to both die.

Hagar found a source of water, and she and the teenage Ishmael survived.




+++


Yadda, you haven't addressed the obviously fabricated contradictory story in Genesis about Ishmael.


I have now.

There is no,
'obviously fabricated contradictory story in Genesis'
.
.......except in your mind.



Do you believe that Hajar carried her 17 year-old son on her shoulder?


No.



If the Bible contradicts itself, doesn't that mean it is made up and not the word of God?


You have not yet demonstrated that the Bible contradicts itself.

All you have proved [and demonstrated] is that moslems do not want to believe that the Bible is the authentic and inspired word of God.






But the original hebrew does not have the punctuation that yu have chosen to use.

But even if we ignore the absurdity of Hagar putting a 17 year-old male on her shoulder, did she cast this 17 year-old under a bush?

Quote:
she cast the child under one of the shrubs


How strong do you believe this woman was?


Quote:
God was with the boy, and he grew. He lived in the wilderness, and became, as he grew up, an archer.


How much growing does a 17 year-old do anyway?
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Re: Three Things About Islam
Reply #59 - Feb 11th, 2012 at 1:49am
 
falah,

If you want to believe that the story of Hagar and her son Ishmael, reveals a contradiction in the OT Bible, i'm happy for you to believe that.

I don't believe that proposition, which you assert.


You said,

"But the original hebrew does not have the punctuation that yu have chosen to use."


That is half true.    [.....surprise, surprise.   /sarc off ]

And neither does the original Hebrew have any punctuation.





The original Hebrew language, because it had no punctuation or vowels, relies heavily upon context for the meaning of text.

Google;
hebrew has no punctuation

Google;
hebrew has no vowels


It is a totally legitimate process to translate from Hebrew, into English, and to then place the punctuation [in the English], so that the narrative makes most sense.

Common sense would tell us this.

We already know, from the earlier narrative [Gen. 16:16, Gen. 21:5], that Ishmael was now a teenager.


So it makes no sense to place the punctuation [in the English translation], so as to place Hagar, carrying her teenage son, Ishmael.

Again, common sense would tell us this.



But the punctuation used in the World English Bible (WEB) does give the narrative a common sense meaning.

i.e.
We know from the earlier narrative, that Hagar's son Ishmael, is by now a teenager.
Abraham gave Hagar bread and a bottle of water, 'putting it on her shoulder', then Abraham brought her child to her.
And then Hagar and Ishmael left Abraham's camp.

Quote:

21:14 Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread and a bottle of water, and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder; and gave her the child, and sent her away. She departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.
21:15 The water in the bottle was spent, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.
21:16 She went and sat down opposite him, a good way off, about a bow shot away. For she said, "Don’t let me see the death of the child." She sat over against him, and lifted up her voice, and wept.
21:17 God heard the voice of the boy.
The angel of God called to Hagar out of the sky, and said to her, "What ails you, Hagar? Don’t be afraid. For God has heard the voice of the boy where he is.
21:18 Get up, lift up the boy, and hold him in your hand. For I will make him a great nation."
21:19 God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water. She went, filled the bottle with water, and gave the boy drink.
21:20 God was with the boy, and he grew. He lived in the wilderness, and became, as he grew up, an archer.
21:21 He lived in the wilderness of Paran. His mother took a wife for him out of the land of Egypt.




And as i said earlier;
Later, 'The water in the bottle was spent', clearly both Hagar and Ishmael were physically distressed, having no water, and both of them expected to die.

Hagar found a source of water, and she and the teenage Ishmael survived.



You want to read an English translation of Genesis 21 [a translation from the Hebrew which has no vowels, and no punctuation], which places the puntuation, so that Hagar is carrying her teenage son ?

Quote:
"14 Early next morning Abraham took some food and a full water-skin and gave them to Hagar. He set the child on her shoulder and sent her away, and she wandered about in the wilderness of Beersheba."


Of course you do.

And if you want to believe that, then i am happy for you to believe that version.



+++

What i believe, is that Ishmael was a teenager, when he and Hagar were 'cast out' by Abraham.
Abraham gave Hagar bread and a bottle of water, 'putting it on her shoulder', then Abraham brought her child to her.
And then Hagar and her teenage son, Ishmael, left Abraham's camp.


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« Last Edit: Feb 11th, 2012 at 9:17am by Yadda »  

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
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