Australian Politics Forum - Three Things About Islam

falah

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Re: Three Things About Islam
Reply #60 - Feb 11^th, 2012 at 11:07am

Yadda, in biblical times, 17 year-olds were not considered children but grown men.

Quote:

Biologically, a child (plural: children) is generally a human between the stages of birth and puberty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child

Think about it, a century ago in England a 17 year-old might have spent years in the workforce already.

Face it, the Genesis story is fabricated.

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Soren

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Re: Three Things About Islam
Reply #61 - Feb 11^th, 2012 at 12:56pm

falah wrote on Feb 11^th, 2012 at 1:22am:

Soren wrote on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 9:43pm:

How does this go in Arabic, Oh bearded teacher?

Sunan Abu Dawud 3991—Abu Dharr said: I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water

This hadeeth could be translated in a number of ways. The translation you posted renders the Arabic "fee 'ayn hamiyah" as "in a spring of warm water". Another way to translate it would be "over the source of Hamitic people (Africa)" - Ham being one of the sons of Noah who's descendants settled in Africa.

From Arabia, the sun certainly does pass over Africa when it sets.

The Arabic word "hamiyah" could also mean "circular" or "hovering" amongst other things.

Another meaning for the Arabic word " 'ayn" is "assignment".

So a more accurate translation might be

"it (the sun) sets in a circular assignment"

. This would be pretty much like saying

"the sun is in an orbit"

.

Sure!!! I love it that every single phrase in the Koran can mean at least three totally different things.

SOme translate 'beat your wife with a stick' as 'take her to a restaurant and wine and dine her, you henpecked deadbeat'. 'Hurrah for Allah and the booty' as 'would you mind getting the shopping out of the boot'. And so forth. Whatever suits.

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falah

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Re: Three Things About Islam
Reply #62 - Feb 11^th, 2012 at 2:48pm

Translation is a very difficult task - especially when dealing with ancient texts.

Translators have varying levels of knowledge of 1) source language, 2) target language and 3) context of original text.

I can show you verses of the Bible that are translated in different ways depending on who translated them.

Does that mean that Bible translators are being deceptive?

Quote:

The Difficulty of Translation

Bible translators throughout the ages have often found it difficult to translate the scriptures literally into languages because ethinic and cultural differences often combine to produce entirely different meanings.

http://www.metanoiaministries.org/Difficulty.html

Quote:

A famous mistranslation of the Bible is the rendering of the Hebrew word קֶרֶן (keren), which has several meanings, as "horn" in a context where it actually means "beam of light". As a result, for centuries artists have depicted Moses the Lawgiver with horns growing out of his forehead; an example is Michelangelo's famous sculpture. Some Christians with anti-Semitic feelings have used such depictions to spread hatred of the Jews, claiming that they were devils with horns.

It is commonly assumed that any bilingual individual is able to produce satisfactory or even high-quality document translations simply because he is a fluent speaker of a second language. However, this is often not the case. Because of the very nature of the different skills that each possesses, bilinguals and translators are not equally prepared to perform document translations. The ability, skill and even the basic mental processes required for bilingualism are fundamentally different from those required for translation.

Bilingual individuals are able to take their own thoughts and ideas and express them orally in two different languages, their native language and a second language, sometimes well enough to pass for native speakers in their second language. However, some persons will have a native command of two languages but prove inept at translating even simple sentences.

Translators must be able to read, understand and retain somebody else’s ideas, then render them accurately, completely and without exclusion, in a way that conveys the original meaning effectively and without distortion in another language.
In other words, translators must be excellent readers in a source language, for example, in English as their second language, and excellent writers in a target language, for example, in Spanish as their native language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translation

Even translation of modern texts is difficult, what of ancient texts, where the context is often not well understood?
Quote:

communication in human language is context-embedded and...It is certainly true that even purely human-generated translations are prone to error
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translation

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« Last Edit: Feb 11^th, 2012 at 2:56pm by falah »

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Yadda

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Re: Three Things About Islam
Reply #63 - Feb 12^th, 2012 at 12:40am

falah wrote on Feb 11^th, 2012 at 11:07am:

Yadda, in biblical times, 17 year-olds were not considered children but grown men.

Quote:

Biologically, a child (plural: children) is generally a human between the stages of birth and puberty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child

Think about it, a century ago in England a 17 year-old might have spent years in the workforce already.

Face it, the Genesis story is fabricated.

What!, the Genesis story is fabricated?

Because the narrative in the Jewish OT doesn't align with ISLAM's narrative concerning Abraham, Issac and Jacob, and the account in the Koran ?

Poor, sad, falah.

Face it, you would like to be able to prove that the Genesis story, and the whole OT, to be fabricated.

But you can't.

Hey falah,

In the Koran, >> Allah << declared that those scriptures which had 'come before', to Moses and Jesus, had actually been protected by Allah.

Quote:

"And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein......
To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety:......."
Koran 5.46-48

The inerrant Koran???
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1295396564/0#0

Mohammed shows in the Hadith, that HE had access to an 'uncorrupted' OT bible, so where is it falah ???

Where is the moslem copy of 'uncorrupted' OT bible, which Mohammed venerated.

"A group of Jews came and invited the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) to Quff. So he visited them in their school.
They said: AbulQasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee."
hadith/abudawud/ #038.4434

Quote:

A PROPOSITION OF LOGIC;
To believe the moslem assertion, made today, that the Jewish O.T. Bible, and the New Testament scriptures have been corrupted, by Jews, and Christians, you have to believe that not one uncorrupted copy of either text survived [i.e. within a single moslem jurisdiction].

How likely is that, when ISLAMIC texts themselves, clearly state that these scriptures ['the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)'], were protected by Allah, and venerated by Mohammed?

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1295396564/0#0

Face it falah, moslems are lairs.

You know it, and i know it.

Face it, the Genesis narrative in the Jewish OT, is authentic.

And it is the Koran which is the lie, the lie which has been foisted upon the [willing to believe, and] envious, children of Ishmael.

The children of Ishmael, burning with jealousy [that their 'cousins', the Jewish people were chosen by God], when they heard Mohammed's fabrication, decided that, yes, OBVIOUSLY, it was them, the children of Ishmael, that God really loved , and not those, spit, spit, Jewish people.

LOL

2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

".....and lying wonders"

falah,

Who are the lying people, who hate truth ???

Who are the REAL kuffar falah ???

Hmmm ?

Google;

taqiyya - the muslim doctrine of deceit

Google;

we smile to the face "while our hearts curse them"

“Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish it through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible..., and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory. ...One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie…”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyyai

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« Last Edit: Feb 12^th, 2012 at 12:49am by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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falah

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Re: Three Things About Islam
Reply #64 - Feb 12^th, 2012 at 3:17pm

Yadda wrote on Feb 12^th, 2012 at 12:40am:

In the Koran, >> Allah << declared that those scriptures which had 'come before', to Moses and Jesus, had actually been protected by Allah.

Quote:

... To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety:......."
Koran 5.46-48

This verse is saying that the Quran confirms the original scripture that came from the mouth of Moses and Jesus, and is guarding the original meanings from the new corruptions that the rabbis and priests have made. The Quran is a criterion for knowing which parts of the Bible are true and which have been corrupted.

Blessed be He (God) Who sent down the criterion (of right and wrong, i.e. this Qur'an)
[al-Furqan, v.1]

Then woe to those (priests and rabbis) who write the Bible with their own hands and then say, "This is from God!," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for that they earn thereby!
[al-Baqarah, v.79]

Yadda wrote on Feb 12^th, 2012 at 12:40am:

Mohammed shows in the Hadith, that HE had access to an 'uncorrupted' OT bible, so where is it falah ???

Where is the moslem copy of 'uncorrupted' OT bible, which Mohammed venerated.

"A group of Jews came and invited the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) to Quff. So he visited them in their school.
They said: AbulQasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee."
hadith/abudawud/ #038.4434

Yadda, are you aware that there millions of hadeeth?

Are you aware that scholars of Islam have a system for classifying the status of hadeeth?

The one you have produced is not considered by Islamic scholars to be authentic due to issues in its transmission.

This report is not considered by Islamic scholars to be authentic because one the reporters in its transmission, Hisham ibn Sa'd, has narratives which are considered disturbed and corrupted according to many famous hadith critics like Ibn Hanbal, Ibn Ma'een, Abu Hatem, al-Nisa'ee, Ibn Sa'd, Ibn 'Adii, al-Madini, al-Hakim, al-'Aqili, Ibn Habban and others.

This is the reason why Ibn Hazm notes:

As for the report in which the Prophet (peace be upon him) took the Torah and said: "I believe in thee", it is a fabricated false report that did not reach us with proper chain of transmission (Ibn Hazm, Al-Fisal fe al-Milal wa al-Ahwaa wa al-Nihal, Volume 1, p. 237)

It is also worthy to note that this particular hadith has been reported through multiple chains of transmission; however, no one has ever mentioned the incident of the Prophet (saws) praising the Torah except in the report of Hisham ibn Sa'd from Zaid ibn Aslam.

However, there are authentic hadeeth transmitted regarding this incident, and they clearly state the Torah used belonged to Jews of madinah. Prophet Muhammed could not read, so he asked the Jews to read their own Torah to him. The Jews lied about the stoning verses. A convert to Islam, a former rabbi named Abdullah ben Shalom, pointed out that the Jews were lying about the stoning verses.

The Jews were not bound by Islamic law, so Prophet Muhammed told them to bring their own book (Torah) for judgment.

Quote:

Narrated Al-Bara' ibn Azib: The people (Jews) passed by the Apostle of God (Muhammed, peace and blessing of God be upon him) with a Jew who was blackened with charcoal and who was being flogged...
Sunan Abu Dawood, 4433 (Authentic)

Quote:

Narrated by Ibn Umar: "The Jews came to the Apostle of God (peace_be_upon_him) and told him that a man and a woman among them had committed adultery. The Apostle of God asked them: "What do you find in the Torah about adultery?" They said: "We shame them and flog them." Abdullah ben Shalom (rabbi who converted to Islam) said: "You are lying! It (Torah) mentions stoning therein!"...They brought the Torah and spread it out, and one of them placed his hand over the verse of stoning, then he started to read what came before it and after it (covered part). Abdullah ben Shalom(former rabbi) said to him: "Lift up your hand!" So he lifted up his handand there was the verse of the stoning. They said: "He has spoken the truth, O Muhammed. In it (the Torah) is the verse of stoning!"...
Sunan Abu Dawood, 4430 (Authentic)

Quote:

Narrated Al-Bara' ibn Azib: "...He (Muhammed) then called on the learned man (rabbi) among them and asked him: I adjure you (put under oath) by God , Who revealed the Torah to Moses, do you find this prescribed punishment for a fornicator in your- Book (Torah)?[/highlight] He said: By God, no. If you had not adjured me about this, I should not have informed you. We find stoning to be prescribed punishment for a fornicator in our Book (Torah). But it (fornication) became frequent in our people of rank; so when we seized a person of rank, we left him alone, and when we seized a weak person, we inflicted the prescribed punishment on him. So we said: Come, let us agree on something which may be enforced equally on people of higher and lower rank. So we agreed to blacken the face of a criminal with charcoal, and flog him, and we abandoned stoning. The Apostle of God then said: "O God, I am the first to revive Thy command which they (Jews) have extinguished. So he commanded regarding him (the Jew) and he was stoned to death. God Most High then sent down: "O Apostle, let not those who race one another into unbelief, make thee grieve..." up to "They say: If you are given this, take it, but if not, beware!...." up to "And if any do fail to judge by what God hath sent down in revelation, they are Disbelievers," about Jews, up to "And if any do fail to judge by what God hath sent down in revelation, wrong-doers" about Jews: and revealed the verses up to "And if any do fail to judge by what God hath sent down in revealation, they are the rebellious (against God)."...
Sunan Abu Dawood, 4433 (Authentic)

Yadda, even if the hadeeth you provided had been considered authentic, Islamic scholars said that this would not be considered a validation of the current Torah but confirmation of the original, which had been long corrupted before the time of prophet muhammed:

The scholar Ibn Hajar Al Asqalani said...

Quote:

And so, some used this hadith as an indication to show that the Torah that the Jews presented, at that time, to the prophet was all sound and correct and not being altered. However, this argument is far from correctness because even saying: ((I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee.) cannot be used as this saying refers to the original Torah (which was revelaed to Moses) [Fathul Bari, Section of rulings of Ahlul dhimma]

Yadda, even Christian Bible scholars admit that the Bible has been corrupted! You an ignorant, go against what your own scholars teach.

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Soren

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Re: Three Things About Islam
Reply #65 - Feb 12^th, 2012 at 9:06pm

falah wrote on Feb 11^th, 2012 at 2:48pm:

Translation is a very difficult task - especially when dealing with ancient texts.

Translators have varying levels of knowledge of 1) source language, 2) target language and 3) context of original text.

I can show you verses of the Bible that are translated in different ways depending on who translated them.

Does that mean that Bible translators are being deceptive?

Quote:

The Difficulty of Translation

Bible translators throughout the ages have often found it difficult to translate the scriptures literally into languages because ethinic and cultural differences often combine to produce entirely different meanings.

http://www.metanoiaministries.org/Difficulty.html

Quote:

A famous mistranslation of the Bible is the rendering of the Hebrew word קֶרֶן (keren), which has several meanings, as "horn" in a context where it actually means "beam of light". As a result, for centuries artists have depicted Moses the Lawgiver with horns growing out of his forehead; an example is Michelangelo's famous sculpture. Some Christians with anti-Semitic feelings have used such depictions to spread hatred of the Jews, claiming that they were devils with horns.

It is commonly assumed that any bilingual individual is able to produce satisfactory or even high-quality document translations simply because he is a fluent speaker of a second language. However, this is often not the case. Because of the very nature of the different skills that each possesses, bilinguals and translators are not equally prepared to perform document translations. The ability, skill and even the basic mental processes required for bilingualism are fundamentally different from those required for translation.

Bilingual individuals are able to take their own thoughts and ideas and express them orally in two different languages, their native language and a second language, sometimes well enough to pass for native speakers in their second language. However, some persons will have a native command of two languages but prove inept at translating even simple sentences.

Translators must be able to read, understand and retain somebody else’s ideas, then render them accurately, completely and without exclusion, in a way that conveys the original meaning effectively and without distortion in another language.
In other words, translators must be excellent readers in a source language, for example, in English as their second language, and excellent writers in a target language, for example, in Spanish as their native language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translation

Even translation of modern texts is difficult, what of ancient texts, where the context is often not well understood?
Quote:

communication in human language is context-embedded and...It is certainly true that even purely human-generated translations are prone to error
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translation

So the Koran doesn't have just one, indisputable meaning. It is open to interpretation and therefore different interpretations and therefore argument and interpretations of context, of time, of usage, of reviews of historical influences and review and revision of earlier interpretations.

Thank you. You'll have your Reformation yet.

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falah

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Re: Three Things About Islam
Reply #66 - Feb 12^th, 2012 at 9:49pm

Soren wrote on Feb 12^th, 2012 at 9:06pm:

So the Koran doesn't have just one, indisputable meaning. It is open to interpretation and therefore different interpretations and therefore argument and interpretations of context, of time, of usage, of reviews of historical influences and review and revision of earlier interpretations.

Thank you. You'll have your Reformation yet.

Much of the Quran is easily understood and there is no room for misunderstanding. In other places the Quran explains itself, or there are hadeeth explaining it. Whatever is left is best left to be explained by Islamic scholars - not ignorants like you who dont even know Arabic.

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Soren

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Re: Three Things About Islam
Reply #67 - Feb 12^th, 2012 at 10:13pm

falah wrote on Feb 12^th, 2012 at 9:49pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 12^th, 2012 at 9:06pm:

So the Koran doesn't have just one, indisputable meaning. It is open to interpretation and therefore different interpretations and therefore argument and interpretations of context, of time, of usage, of reviews of historical influences and review and revision of earlier interpretations.

Thank you. You'll have your Reformation yet.

Much of the Quran is easily understood and there is no room for misunderstanding. In other places the Quran explains itself, or there are hadeeth explaining it. Whatever is left is best left to be explained by Islamic scholars - not ignorants like you who dont even know Arabic.

Anyone who has read a page of the Koran knows what a monumental BS that is, falah.
The Koran is a notoriously disjointed and incomprehensible text. It is as obvious to the most cursory as to the most meticulous reader that it is a collection of disjointed snippets, organised by a committee in the most bizarre manner, by the length of the chapters. This means that nothing is in chronological order - ie the way thing may have happened - and so understanding is completely at the mercy of a bearded numpty telling you what to think. That is to say, you need someone to tell you what it means because understanding just by reading it is absolutely impossible.
You know this, I know this, Abu knows this. Anyone literate knows this.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Three Things About Islam
Reply #68 - Feb 12^th, 2012 at 10:50pm

falah wrote on Feb 12^th, 2012 at 9:49pm:

Much of the Quran is easily understood and there is no room for misunderstanding.

So the jews are gods chosen people then if you read this verse?

Quote:

O Children of Israel ! Remember my favour wherewith i favoured you and how i preferred you to all creatures

http://quran.com/2/47

Read all translations tick boxes on left side of page and watch falah spin this one...LMAO

Since when did muslims become known as the children of Israel falah?

Allah has done it again calling jews his favourite people
http://quran.com/2/122

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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Three Things About Islam Reply #69 - Feb 13^th, 2012 at 7:15am They indeed were favoured.... 'were' being the key word here. That favour was dependant on them fulfilling their duties, which they did not, and so the favour was taken from them. Quite simple actually, most simpletons would've picked up on that one.
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abu_rashid

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Re: Three Things About Islam
Reply #70 - Feb 13^th, 2012 at 7:18am

Soren wrote on Feb 12^th, 2012 at 10:13pm:

Anyone who has read a page of the Koran knows what a monumental BS that is, falah.
The Koran is a notoriously disjointed and incomprehensible text. It is as obvious to the most cursory as to the most meticulous reader that it is a collection of disjointed snippets, organised by a committee in the most bizarre manner, by the length of the chapters. This means that nothing is in chronological order - ie the way thing may have happened - and so understanding is completely at the mercy of a bearded numpty telling you what to think. That is to say, you need someone to tell you what it means because understanding just by reading it is absolutely impossible.
You know this, I know this, Abu knows this. Anyone literate knows this.

I know nothing of the kind. And I don't think you know this either. As I don't believe you've ever read the Qur'an. You've just sifted through the cherry picked verses you find on anti-Islamic websites.

When you read the Qur'an properly, you will feel exactly as though God is talking directly to you. I advise you to spend some time, to sit down and actually read it with an open mind.

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Yadda

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Re: Three Things About Islam
Reply #71 - Feb 13^th, 2012 at 8:59am

falah wrote on Feb 12^th, 2012 at 3:17pm:

Yadda wrote on Feb 12^th, 2012 at 12:40am:

Mohammed shows in the Hadith, that HE had access to an 'uncorrupted' OT bible, so where is it falah ???

Where is the moslem copy of 'uncorrupted' OT bible, which Mohammed venerated.

"A group of Jews came and invited the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) to Quff. So he visited them in their school.
They said: AbulQasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee."
hadith/abudawud/ #038.4434

Yadda, are you aware that there millions of hadeeth?

Are you aware that scholars of Islam have a system for classifying the status of hadeeth?

The one you have produced is not considered by Islamic scholars to be authentic due to issues in its transmission.

This report is not considered by Islamic scholars to be authentic because one the reporters in its transmission, Hisham ibn Sa'd, has narratives which are considered disturbed and corrupted according to many famous hadith critics like Ibn Hanbal, Ibn Ma'een, Abu Hatem, al-Nisa'ee, Ibn Sa'd, Ibn 'Adii, al-Madini, al-Hakim, al-'Aqili, Ibn Habban and others.

This is the reason why Ibn Hazm notes:

As for the report in which the Prophet (peace be upon him) took the Torah and said: "I believe in thee", it is a fabricated false report that did not reach us with proper chain of transmission (Ibn Hazm, Al-Fisal fe al-Milal wa al-Ahwaa wa al-Nihal, Volume 1, p. 237)

falah said......

"....Hisham ibn Sa'd, has narratives which are considered disturbed and corrupted according to many famous hadith critics...............As for the report in which the Prophet (peace be upon him) took the Torah and said: "I believe in thee", it is a fabricated false report that did not reach us with proper chain of transmission."

Corrupted ???

Fabricated ???

Q.
Corrupted and fabricated by who falah ???

A.
Fabricated by Mohammed's 'companions'.

A.
Fabricated by good moslems.

falah said.....
Quote:

"Much of the Quran is easily understood and there is no room for misunderstanding. In other places the Quran explains itself, or there are hadeeth explaining it. Whatever is left is best left to be explained by Islamic scholars - not ignorants like you who dont even know Arabic."

And >> who << decides which hadith are authentic falah ?

So your argument is that;

You are telling us that much of the hadith is recognised as being unreliable, because much of it is a fabrication, a 'confection',......................by moslems, i.e. by the 'companions' of Mohammed.

But other sections of hadith are authentic, because those hadith have been authenticated,..................by moslems.

???

Bizarre logic. .....Just normal moslem logic.

Q.
How did those moslems, those moslems who authenticated the 'authentic' hadith verses, know which verses were authentic ???

How could they >> know << which hadith verses were >> really << authentic ???

Weren't those moslems, merely men ?

Were those MEN inspired by Allah, to 'authenticate' only the authentic hadith verses ???? Tongue

Q.
Being good moslems wouldn't those moslems merely have 'authenticated' the hadith verses which portrayed Mohammed and ISLAM in a good light ???

And discarded or denounced all the 'other' hadith verses, which may have seemed contradictory, or false, or which portrayed Mohammed and ISLAM in less that an ideal light ???

+++

falah,

Q.
If i am a person who KNOWS, that among a particular group of people there is a predisposition to lie, and to tell falsehoods 'to achieve objectives'
, then how can i, or anyone know, when anyone among 'the lying people', are speaking truthfully ?

A.
We can never know.

The testimony of a self confessed deceiver must always be suspect.

That, is only common sense.

And all moslems, are self confessed deceivers of men.

Google;

taqiyya - the muslim doctrine of deceit

falah,

Don't moslems have a problem with the credibility of the integrity of their 'holy scripture', because it has been 'authenticated' by moslems [i.e. known to be liars and deceivers] ???

Q.
How can anyone [with one ounce of common sense] have confidence in 'holy scripture' which has been compiled and 'authenticated', .......by self confessed deceivers ???

A.
Only a moslem can.

+++

According to God [according to God's word], no moslem will be redeemed.

No moslem can be redeemed.

Why not ?

Because the good moslem has chosen to embrace taqqiya [deceit] in his dealings with other men.

And his deceit, MAKES A MOSLEM, ALL MOSLEMS, INFIDELS.

"kuffar" = = "...is an Arabic word meaning.....[an unbeliever] a person....who hides, denies, or covers the truth."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuffar

A moslem cannot be a good moslem, unless he embraces all of the doctrines and obligatory practices of ISLAM.

You who embrace ISLAM, your own lies and deception, have become a witness against you, before God.

Yadda wrote on Feb 12^th, 2012 at 12:40am:

falah,

Who are the lying people, who hate truth ???

Who are the REAL kuffar falah ???

Hmmm ?

Google;

taqiyya - the muslim doctrine of deceit

Google;

we smile to the face "while our hearts curse them"

“Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish it through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible..., and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory. ...One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie…”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya

Psalms 4:2
O ye sons of men, how long will ye turn my glory into shame? how long will ye love vanity, and seek after leasing? Selah.

leasing = = deceit

Psalms 28:3
Draw me not away with the wicked, and with the workers of iniquity, which speak peace to their neighbours, but mischief is in their hearts.
4 Give them according to their deeds, and according to the wickedness of their endeavours: give them after the work of their hands; render to them their desert.

Psalms 40:4
Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.

Psalms 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Psalms 62:4
They only consult to cast him down from his excellency: they delight in lies: they bless with their mouth, but they curse inwardly. Selah.
5 My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation is from him.
6 He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be moved.
7 In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge, is in God.

Psalms 101:7
He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within my house: he that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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falah Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3162	Re: Three Things About Islam Reply #72 - Feb 13^th, 2012 at 5:17pm Yadda, taqqyia is only practiced by Shi-ites. Orthodox mainstream Muslims do not believe in taqqiya. You know this but you keep bringing it up. Obviously it is you that is the deceiver!
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abu_rashid

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Aussie Muslim

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Re: Three Things About Islam
Reply #73 - Feb 13^th, 2012 at 6:40pm

falah, what they seem to believe, based on some garbage from jihadwatch it seems, is that Muslims supposedly commit taqiyyah because we're given license to hide our Islam at pain of death.

They extrapolate this out, and probably mix it with the Shi'a practice and then claim Muslims can lie about anything in order to deceive non-Muslims, and this is supposedly some part of Islam called taqiyyah. The best part (for them) about their claims is that you can't deny it either, because if you do, then you're probably just practicing taqiyyah anyway. Win-win situation, or so they think. Deluding themselves only it seems.

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Baronvonrort

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Australian Politics

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Re: Three Things About Islam
Reply #74 - Feb 13^th, 2012 at 8:01pm

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 13^th, 2012 at 6:40pm:

falah, what they seem to believe, based on some garbage from jihadwatch it seems, is that Muslims supposedly commit taqiyyah because we're given license to hide our Islam at pain of death.

They extrapolate this out, and probably mix it with the Shi'a practice and then claim Muslims can lie about anything in order to deceive non-Muslims, and this is supposedly some part of Islam called taqiyyah. The best part (for them) about their claims is that you can't deny it either, because if you do, then you're probably just practicing taqiyyah anyway. Win-win situation, or so they think. Deluding themselves only it seems.

What is your opinion on the honesty of the shia Abu or falah, are they full of taqiyya or totally honest?

If we research Islamic websites we find the sunni/salafi are allowed to lie yet only under certain conditions what word should we use for this Abu or Falah?
Quote:

The basic rule with regard to lying is that it is not permitted ,but there are certain circumstances in which Islam permits lying
1.You can lie to your wife
2.At times of war
3.In order to reconcile between people
http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/2424/lie

Is Australia considered Dar al Harb ?

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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