Australian Politics Forum - Is the Carbon Tax a Big Scam

Ajax Gold Member Offline CO2 has never controlled temperature on Earth Posts: 10975 Australia Gender:	Is the Carbon Tax a Big Scam Feb 7^th, 2012 at 5:20pm Hi Everyone, This is my first post, i dont know if you guys have talked about this before? if so sorry to bring back old discussions. Well what do you guys think is the carbon tax a big scam? Personally i think it is, because there are much better ways to fix the problem than joining The European ETS scheme.
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Doctor Jolly Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3808	Re: Is the Carbon Tax a Big Scam Reply #1 - Feb 7^th, 2012 at 5:24pm Ajax wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 5:20pm: Personally i think it is, because there are much better ways to fix the problem than joining The European ETS scheme. Let hear 'em.
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Uncle Meat

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Re: Is the Carbon Tax a Big Scam
Reply #2 - Feb 7^th, 2012 at 5:35pm

Ajax wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 5:20pm:

Hi Everyone,

This is my first post, i dont know if you guys have talked about this before? if so sorry to bring back old discussions.

Well what do you guys think is the carbon tax a big scam?

Personally i think it is, because there are much better ways to fix the problem than joining The European ETS scheme.

1. Is there a problem?

2. If there is, can humans do anything about it?

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Ajax

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Re: Is the Carbon Tax a Big Scam
Reply #3 - Feb 7^th, 2012 at 5:36pm

Well for starters the goverment could force power stations to convert from coal to gas fired which will greatly reduce the amount of CO2 and other green house gases being emitted.

This way the pollutters will end up paying instead of the public.

The way its geared now and with the admission of the PM and others, the cost will flow on to the end user and the polluters can carry on as before as long as they buy carbon credits that are being farmed from overseas companies.

There is no incentive for the big polluters to reduce emmissions and the government will get its revenue.

The carbon tax will increase not only the cost of energy but every daily essential cause everything uses energy somewhere between raw materials and sales.

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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery & prison" Regas Feraeos

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progressiveslol

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Re: Is the Carbon Tax a Big Scam
Reply #4 - Feb 7^th, 2012 at 5:45pm

This might interest you in making your mind up about if the carbon tax is a scam, gullability, stupidity or other.

Well isn't this timely for the climate church followers who smuggly say only NASA ect are reputable and throw away any and all other peer reviewed science.

German news translated. Circulation of 16million readers. Devoting half of page 2.

“THE CO2 LIES … pure fear-mongering … should we blindly trust the experts
?”

http://notrickszone.com/2012/02/06/body-blow-to-german-global-warming-movement-m...

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Doctor Jolly

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Re: Is the Carbon Tax a Big Scam
Reply #5 - Feb 7^th, 2012 at 8:08pm

Ajax wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 5:36pm:

Well for starters the goverment could force power stations to convert from coal to gas fired which will greatly reduce the amount of CO2 and other green house gases being emitted.

This way the pollutters will end up paying instead of the public.

So, who is going to pay for this change to gas?

Electricity companies? They have to get the money from somewhere, and the only revenue they have is from consumers. So they will need to double the electricity rate to you and me, maybe more.

Government? Thats our money they spend, not theirs.
Quote:

The way its geared now and with the admission of the PM and others, the cost will flow on to the end user and the polluters can carry on as before as long as they buy carbon credits that are being farmed from overseas companies.

Someone has to pay for this conversion away from coal. Money dont grow on tree's. It will always flow onto the end user.... there is no one else.

So what other ideas have you got ?

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philperth2010

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Re: Is the Carbon Tax a Big Scam
Reply #6 - Feb 7^th, 2012 at 8:39pm

An ETS makes polluters pay where as the Coalitions Direct Action policy will be paid for from budget revenue......It is widely accepted by economists that pricing carbon is the cheapest way to reduce emissions.....

http://au.tv.yahoo.com/sunrise/factsheets/article/-/9819732/carbon-tax-vs-ets-vs...

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/2804206.html

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1133092/how-does-the-ets-work

http://www.business21c.com.au/2009/12/emissions-trading-how-does-it-work

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jun/07/ets-emissions-trading

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If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can solve them.
Isaac Asimov (1920 - 1992)

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philperth2010

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Re: Is the Carbon Tax a Big Scam
Reply #7 - Feb 7^th, 2012 at 8:41pm

Direct Action exposed......

On Monday night on the ABC's PM program, Stephen Long finally examined some of Tony Abbott's claims. In a stunning piece of forensic investigation, Long single-handedly dismantled the distortions, misrepresentations and bald-faced lies that Tony Abbott continues to advance.

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/2804206.html

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If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can solve them.
Isaac Asimov (1920 - 1992)

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Swagman

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Re: Is the Carbon Tax a Big Scam
Reply #8 - Feb 7^th, 2012 at 9:12pm

Doctor Jolly wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 5:24pm:

Ajax wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 5:20pm:

Personally i think it is, because there are much better ways to fix the problem than joining The European ETS scheme.

Let hear 'em.

A few OZ nuke power stations will reduce OZ emmissions if not concentrations....... Shocked

Yes we'd go a long way in reaching that target of 5% of our 1% of global emissions.....

Wait a minute...OZ produces 1% of Global emissions and we want to reduce our 1% to 0.95% by retarding our industries and competitive advantage, exporting our jobs overseas (already happening) redistributing wealth away from efficient industries to inefficient ones..............

what the hell are we doing?

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Doctor Jolly

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Re: Is the Carbon Tax a Big Scam
Reply #9 - Feb 7^th, 2012 at 11:17pm

Swagman wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 9:12pm:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 5:24pm:

Ajax wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 5:20pm:

Personally i think it is, because there are much better ways to fix the problem than joining The European ETS scheme.

Let hear 'em.

A few OZ nuke power stations will reduce OZ emmissions if not concentrations.......
o

Conversion to nukes cost money, same as conversion to gas. Someone's got to foot the bill.

Anyway, all this direct action mumbo jumbo is a classic case of asking the government to pick winners. Gas or Nukes, etc. Just price coal to the point at which gas, nukes and renewables are competitive, and let the market decide. The market always find the efficient solution to a problem.

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Doctor Jolly

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Re: Is the Carbon Tax a Big Scam
Reply #10 - Feb 7^th, 2012 at 11:26pm

philperth2010 wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 8:41pm:

Direct Action exposed......

On Monday night on the ABC's PM program, Stephen Long finally examined some of Tony Abbott's claims. In a stunning piece of forensic investigation, Long single-handedly dismantled the distortions, misrepresentations and bald-faced lies that Tony Abbott continues to advance.

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/2804206.html

This quote sums up Direct Action...

They conclude that Direct Action will cost taxpayers $11 billion a year, require a thicket of new regulations and hundreds of new bureaucrats to enforce them.

Direct Action is likely to achieve any emissions reductions at an exorbitant cost. One million solar roofs, for instance, will cost $133 for every tonne of carbon it abates.

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Ajax

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Re: Is the Carbon Tax a Big Scam
Reply #11 - Feb 8^th, 2012 at 11:25am

Doctor Jolly wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 8:08pm:

Ajax wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 5:36pm:

Well for starters the goverment could force power stations to convert from coal to gas fired which will greatly reduce the amount of CO2 and other green house gases being emitted.

This way the pollutters will end up paying instead of the public.

So, who is going to pay for this change to gas?

Electricity companies? They have to get the money from somewhere, and the only revenue they have is from consumers. So they will need to double the electricity rate to you and me, maybe more.

Government? Thats our money they spend, not theirs.
Quote:

The way its geared now and with the admission of the PM and others, the cost will flow on to the end user and the polluters can carry on as before as long as they buy carbon credits that are being farmed from overseas companies.

Someone has to pay for this conversion away from coal. Money dont grow on tree's. It will always flow onto the end user.... there is no one else.

So what other ideas have you got ?

Well what do you do if you want a new car?

You dig into your savings or get some credit right!

Are you saying that these companies are exempt from digging into their profits!

They certainely dig into them to give themselves big bonuses at the top end dont they.

Yes they should encure the whole cost, it wont happen overnight, it will be a gradual thing.

This was the case when the government legislated to reduce sulphur in petrol from 10% to 6% not but a few years ago.

If these greedy companies dont like it they can nik of and our government can take over, its not that they have improved so much more since we went private.

And dont forget they make billions in profit.

And where the hell is the competition we were promised!

Companies pay not the consumer.

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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery & prison" Regas Feraeos

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Doctor Jolly

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Re: Is the Carbon Tax a Big Scam
Reply #12 - Feb 8^th, 2012 at 12:42pm

Ajax wrote on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 11:25am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 8:08pm:

Ajax wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 5:36pm:

Well for starters the goverment could force power stations to convert from coal to gas fired which will greatly reduce the amount of CO2 and other green house gases being emitted.

This way the pollutters will end up paying instead of the public.

So, who is going to pay for this change to gas?

Electricity companies? They have to get the money from somewhere, and the only revenue they have is from consumers. So they will need to double the electricity rate to you and me, maybe more.

Government? Thats our money they spend, not theirs.
Quote:

The way its geared now and with the admission of the PM and others, the cost will flow on to the end user and the polluters can carry on as before as long as they buy carbon credits that are being farmed from overseas companies.

Someone has to pay for this conversion away from coal. Money dont grow on tree's. It will always flow onto the end user.... there is no one else.

So what other ideas have you got ?

Well what do you do if you want a new car?

You dig into your savings or get some credit right!

Are you saying that these companies are exempt from digging into their profits!

They certainely dig into them to give themselves big bonuses at the top end dont they.

Yes they should encure the whole cost, it wont happen overnight, it will be a gradual thing.

This was the case when the government legislated to reduce sulphur in petrol from 10% to 6% not but a few years ago.

If these greedy companies dont like it they can nik of and our government can take over, its not that they have improved so much more since we went private.

And dont forget they make billions in profit.

And where the hell is the competition we were promised!

Companies pay not the consumer.

The company profits from electricity generators would barely pay for the foundations of a new generation plant.

The shareholders of private generators arent about to voluntarily bottom out their share price and dividends to build new plants. They will force the company to charge more.

The government who controls the public generators will not receive such healthy dividents if all profit (and new loans) are required to build new plants. The government loses money meaning either less services for you, or more taxes for you to pay to make up the difference.

Money dont grow on tree's.

The only different between your government directed change, and a carbon tax, is a carbon tax lets the market decide which is the most efficient solution, yours is the government trying to pick winners which is fraught with danger and corruption.

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red baron

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Re: Is the Carbon Tax a Big Scam
Reply #13 - Feb 8^th, 2012 at 12:55pm

Welcome Ajax to the 'bullring'. There has and is much comment on the Lord Monckton blog in regard to Climate Change and Carbon etc.

Nevertheless your comments and presence are more than welcome. Healthy debate from both sides is a good thing. Only by healthy debate can we examine issues from all corners.

As I have said extensively on the Monckton blog, I believe the Carbon Tax to be a gigantic con job.

A thirty second grab on my views, 'The big polluters with buy Carbon Credits so that Indonesian banana farmers can offset their pollution here.' When the Carbon Credits Trading gets going in earnest, our big polluters will offset everything they churn out.

The stockbroker's of the world view as their 'wet dream' they trade in Fresh Air and all the little worker ants of the earth will keep their pockets full by this crazy tax. (Not crazy as far as the Labor Pzarty are concened they will reap the wild wind with it.)

Point in question, Al Gore, yes that one, is now in business of Carbon Credits with a partner David Blood, their firm Blood and Gore (not a joke).

Al Gore is reaping the bounty of his climate change crap and making millions and millions.

Come in spinner, there is one born every minute as Barnum of Barnum and Bailey's Circus once said.

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Doctor Jolly Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3808	Re: Is the Carbon Tax a Big Scam Reply #14 - Feb 8^th, 2012 at 3:14pm I think Ajax is the rare breed that understands climate change is man made, but is looking to debate the best strategy to fight it. A very rare, and very worthwhile thing to do. Which means all you deniers who polute the world with your rubbish can GTFO of this thread.
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