Australian Politics Forum - The Israel Lobby

Soren

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Re: The Israel Lobby
Reply #180 - Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:12am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:00am:

Soren wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 9:59am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 9:52am:

Soren wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 9:39am:

There will be no end to the attacks on Israel by the Muslims because its right to exist is not accepted by the Muslims.

As much as I am pro-Israel (as I believe anyone of European descent should be), I believe the idea that a state has a "right to exist" is laughable.

Does independent Kurdistan have a "right to exist"? How about a Basque territory? Tibet (as an independent state)? If so, then why do they not exist as independent states?

It has the right to exist in so far as it is a sovereign UN member state, recognised as such in international law.

Tibet?

Is it a UN member state? I didn't know.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: The Israel Lobby
Reply #181 - Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:15am

Soren wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:12am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:00am:

Soren wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 9:59am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 9:52am:

Soren wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 9:39am:

There will be no end to the attacks on Israel by the Muslims because its right to exist is not accepted by the Muslims.

As much as I am pro-Israel (as I believe anyone of European descent should be), I believe the idea that a state has a "right to exist" is laughable.

Does independent Kurdistan have a "right to exist"? How about a Basque territory? Tibet (as an independent state)? If so, then why do they not exist as independent states?

It has the right to exist in so far as it is a sovereign UN member state, recognised as such in international law.

Tibet?

Is it a UN member state? I didn't know.

How much of Israel has a "right to exist"? Just that within the original borders?

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it_is_the_light Gold Member Offline Christ Light Posts: 41434 The Pyramid of LIGHT Gender:	Re: The Israel Lobby Reply #182 - Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:16am http://public.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pr_L7nq2u-8BZFxAdoX5kRW5DlD_4A8B30tjx3IKvqaECn8Mg-voECs6PPbNQ2JVMuZ5ixitBGaLB3WvKZG4Frw/arresting23.jpgpsid=1
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Soren

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Re: The Israel Lobby
Reply #183 - Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:19am

UN Partition Plan For Palestine 1947

The Jewish leadership accepted the partition plan, without reservation.

And so if the Arabs hadn't attacked repeatedly but had accepted the paln as the Jews did, this is how the map would look like today.
Israel and the Arabs would have had 65 years of peace, cooperation and prosperity.

But the Muslims are not prepared to accept any Jewish sovereignty. They were cool with the Turks ryuling over them, evn with the Brits and the rench. But not the Jews. That's against Islamic tenets which they cannot swallow nor spit out. If they weren't Muslims, there woul be no Middle eastern conflict.

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« Last Edit: Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:31am by Soren »

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bobbythefap1 Gold Member Offline Posts: 7026 Listen now to the rain	Re: The Israel Lobby Reply #184 - Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:24am Soren, I am going to take your land and kick you out of your home with force. Please just accept this and everything will be ok
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: The Israel Lobby
Reply #185 - Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:27am

Soren wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:19am:

UN Partition Plan For Palestine 1947

The Jewish leadership accepted the partition plan, without reservation.

And so if the Arabs hadn't attacked repeatedly but had accepted the paln s the jews did, this is how the map would look like today.
Israel and the Arabs would have had 65 years of peace, cooperation and prosperity.

So Israel only has a "right to exist" within the original borders and (presumably) has no "right to exist" outside those borders?

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Avram Horowitz

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Re: The Israel Lobby
Reply #186 - Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:30am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:27am:

Soren wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:19am:

UN Partition Plan For Palestine 1947

The Jewish leadership accepted the partition plan, without reservation.

And so if the Arabs hadn't attacked repeatedly but had accepted the paln s the jews did, this is how the map would look like today.
Israel and the Arabs would have had 65 years of peace, cooperation and prosperity.

So Israel only has a "right to exist" within the original borders and (presumably) has no "right to exist" outside those borders?

So you know they fires hundred of grad rockets into my country?

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: The Israel Lobby
Reply #187 - Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:36am

Avram Horowitz wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:30am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:27am:

Soren wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:19am:

UN Partition Plan For Palestine 1947

The Jewish leadership accepted the partition plan, without reservation.

And so if the Arabs hadn't attacked repeatedly but had accepted the paln s the jews did, this is how the map would look like today.
Israel and the Arabs would have had 65 years of peace, cooperation and prosperity.

So Israel only has a "right to exist" within the original borders and (presumably) has no "right to exist" outside those borders?

So you know they fires hundred of grad rockets into my country?

Yes. My question is in regards to the meaning of "right to exist" (if it has any real meaning).

A state exists because (a) its citizens have the means to successfully defend its borders and/or (b) neighbouring / significant states acknowledge the existence of that state where they do not have the wherewithal to destroy it.

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Soren

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Re: The Israel Lobby
Reply #188 - Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:41am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:27am:

Soren wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:19am:

UN Partition Plan For Palestine 1947

The Jewish leadership accepted the partition plan, without reservation.

And so if the Arabs hadn't attacked repeatedly but had accepted the plan the Jews did, this is how the map would look like today.
Israel and the Arabs would have had 65 years of peace, cooperation and prosperity.

So Israel only has a "right to exist" within the original borders and (presumably) has no "right to exist" outside those borders?

Well, Gaza and the West Bank are not part of Israel, they are occupied territories.

AN important point to remember that the palestinian territories on that 1947 map have never formed part of any sovereign country since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. They were territories occupied by Egypt, Jordan, Syria, NOT sovereign parts of those countries.
SO when Israel captured them in wars (it didn't start), they remained occupied territories, but now by Israel.
This is why Jewish settlements there are not illegal: they would be illegal only if these territories had previously formed parts of a sovereign state.
This is the conundrum, that the last sovereign power that 'owned these occupied territories(Ottoman Turkey) does not exist. And so 'facts on the ground' become the only basis of sorting out the disputes. The Arabs made a huge blunder by not accepting sovereignty over the Arab parts of that partition plan while they could.

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Avram Horowitz

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Re: The Israel Lobby
Reply #189 - Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:43am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:36am:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:30am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:27am:

Soren wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:19am:

UN Partition Plan For Palestine 1947

The Jewish leadership accepted the partition plan, without reservation.

And so if the Arabs hadn't attacked repeatedly but had accepted the paln s the jews did, this is how the map would look like today.
Israel and the Arabs would have had 65 years of peace, cooperation and prosperity.

So Israel only has a "right to exist" within the original borders and (presumably) has no "right to exist" outside those borders?

So you know they fires hundred of grad rockets into my country?

Yes. My question is in regards to the meaning of "right to exist" (if it has any real meaning).

A state exists because (a) its citizens have the means to successfully defend its borders and/or (b) neighbouring / significant states acknowledge the existence of that state where they do not have the wherewithal to destroy it.

Israel do has right to exist,

You know borders change because of Arabs attack Israel,,

We has gaza from Egypt, Samaria from Jordan and golan from Syria,

All from they attack,

We does has un and USA support on these matters

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: The Israel Lobby
Reply #190 - Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:52am

Soren wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:41am:

This is the conundrum, that the last sovereign power that 'owned these occupied territories(Ottoman Turkey) does not exist. And so 'facts on the ground' become the only basis of sorting out the disputes.

'Facts on the ground' that did not work in the Kurds' favour... If any state had a "right to exist", it would be Kurdistan.

Israel exists because it has the wherewithal to defend its borders (where Israelis choose to draw them) against all its enemies. In the future, when the occupied territories (as many Orthodox insist) are declared part of greater Israel (as I am sure they will be), Israeli statesmen and women will have the job of selling that to its neighbours... Whether they like it or not will be irrelevant to the existence of "Greater Israel" so long as its citizenry have the wherewithal and the will to successfully defend its borders.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: The Israel Lobby
Reply #191 - Mar 18^th, 2012 at 11:00am

Avram Horowitz wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:43am:

Israel do has right to exist,

You know borders change because of Arabs attack Israel,,

We has gaza from Egypt, Samaria from Jordan and golan from Syria,

All from they attack,

We does has un and USA support on these matters

What I am saying is that the state of Israel exists because its citizenry can defend its borders... There is no greater requirement for a state's existence.

Acknowledgement from other states is only significant if this recognition augments in some way the state's citizenry's capacity to defend the state either militarily, economically, politically and/or psychologically.

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Soren

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Re: The Israel Lobby
Reply #192 - Mar 18^th, 2012 at 11:12am

Well, England had the entire Australian continent because there was no other sovereign power to claim it.

The Arabs can't agree among themselves (Hamas and Fatah), so all those territories remain outside any sovereign Arab claim. So Israel is filling the vacuum- but that vacuum exists only because the Arabs didn't accept the partition plan of 1947.
The facts on the ground mean, among other things, that shelling and suicide-bombing israel for decades is not the way to Palestinian sovereignty, either.

In other words, in the absence of a political solution acceptable to the Arabs (the partition and recognition of Israel), the dispute is conducted in the only language Arabs accept: force. They could have accepted the political solution but have been choosing the path of the armed destruction of Israel (without actually having the arms...). These are the facts on the ground. Crazy, what?

And now, Chapter 275 - Step forward, Prez Ahmadinnerjacket.

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Soren

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Re: The Israel Lobby
Reply #193 - Mar 18^th, 2012 at 11:14am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 11:00am:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:43am:

Israel do has right to exist,

You know borders change because of Arabs attack Israel,,

We has gaza from Egypt, Samaria from Jordan and golan from Syria,

All from they attack,

We does has un and USA support on these matters

What I am saying is that the state of Israel exists because its citizenry can defend its borders... There is no greater requirement for a state's existence.

Acknowledgement from other states is only significant if this recognition augments in some way the state's citizenry's capacity to defend the state either militarily, economically, politically and/or psychologically.

Like East Timor, you mean?

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Bobby. Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 105399 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The Israel Lobby Reply #194 - Mar 18^th, 2012 at 11:20am Hi Soren, You're not Jewish by any chance are you?
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