Australian Politics Forum - does Islam equate sex and rape?

abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: does Islam equate sex and rape? Reply #45 - Mar 10^th, 2012 at 12:53pm Soren wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 10:11am: You are also, predictably, silent on the solo lady traveller. One of the ones I have spoken to was a solo traveller, and she was also the most positive about the treatment she received.
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freediver

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Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Reply #46 - Mar 10^th, 2012 at 1:00pm

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 12:52pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 10:24am:

Does that include the people who got blown up in Bali?

What about the woman who got raped in Saudi Arabia then got put in jail for having non-permitted sex? She wasn't even alone and she got screwed.

Do all the people murdered, raped, tortured etc. by Western soldiers count as part of the Christian approach to neighbourliness? Didn't think so. Only goes one way doesn't it? Your way.

I was referring to the Muslim tradition of ignoring the rape and punishing the consensual sex. Civilised people don't do that.

Quote:

Women are not jailed in Saudi for being raped. A woman in Saudi cannot be jailed for non-permitted sex if she has been raped.

What if they were separate incidents?

Quote:

In Islam, there is a substantial difference the between the punishment for rape and and adultery. In cases of adultery, both parties are punished, in rape cases only the attacker is punished possibly with death.

So the punishment is the same, just that the victim gets let off?

Quote:

In Islamic law, the rape victim is entitled to compensation from the attacker.

So for the attacker, this is the only real difference - the financial penalty?

Quote:

In Islamic law, the rapist can face extra punishment if he used a weapon.

But not for the rape itself, which recieves the same punishment as consensual sex?

Quote:

It is deceptive for you to call adultery and fornication "consensual". Did God Almighty consent to this act? God created all human beings, he did not give permission for people to commit fornication or adultery.

Can you elaborate please? Do you know what consensual means?

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Soren

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Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Reply #47 - Mar 10^th, 2012 at 1:31pm

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 12:53pm:

Soren wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 10:11am:

You are also, predictably, silent on the solo lady traveller.

One of the ones I have spoken to was a solo traveller, and she was also the most positive about the treatment she received.

I don't believe you.

Women travelling alone in Italy and Greece, let alone Turkey, do not have positive experinces. It is a lie that solo lady travellers in Egypt, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan or Pakistan have had positive experiences about their treatment. Unless they were travelling prostitutes. Which is how the men in those countries would have treated them.

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falah

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Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Reply #48 - Mar 10^th, 2012 at 7:25pm

freediver wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 1:00pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 12:52pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 10:24am:

Does that include the people who got blown up in Bali?

What about the woman who got raped in Saudi Arabia then got put in jail for having non-permitted sex? She wasn't even alone and she got screwed.

Do all the people murdered, raped, tortured etc. by Western soldiers count as part of the Christian approach to neighbourliness? Didn't think so. Only goes one way doesn't it? Your way.

I was referring to the Muslim tradition of ignoring the rape and punishing the consensual sex. Civilised people don't do that.

There is no basis in Islam for ignoring rape. Schoars of islam have said that even if the punishment for illegal sexual intercourse cannot be implemented due to lack of witnesses in the trial, then the victims word can still be taken and the rapist still face a deterrent punishment such as imprisonment.

Islamic scholars have expressly said that the victim should not be punished.

freediver wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 1:00pm:

Quote:

Women are not jailed in Saudi for being raped. A woman in Saudi cannot be jailed for non-permitted sex if she has been raped.

What if they were separate incidents?

People can only be punished in islam for what they have voluntarily done. There is no punishment for being forced to do something or crimes commited whilst considered inacapacitated eg. asleep, mentally ill, below the age of knowing right from wrong, etc.

freediver wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 1:00pm:

Quote:

In Islam, there is a substantial difference the between the punishment for rape and and adultery. In cases of adultery, both parties are punished, in rape cases only the attacker is punished possibly with death.

So the punishment is the same,

Ihave just explained to you that the punishment is not the same, there is a whipping or stoning, but also a financial penalty and also jailing. The rapist who uses a weapon faces further punishments such as double amputation or crucifixion

freediver wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 1:00pm:

just that the victim gets let off?

You insinuation is false. In Islamic law, a victim would not be charged with illegal sexual conduct. So there is nothing to let them off from.

freediver wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 1:00pm:

Quote:

In Islamic law, the rape victim is entitled to compensation from the attacker.

So for the attacker, this is the only real difference - the financial penalty?

financial penalty, imprisonment or other deterrent punishment, and execution/crucifion/double amputation or exile if the crime involved a weapon.

freediver wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 1:00pm:

Quote:

In Islamic law, the rapist can face extra punishment if he used a weapon.

But not for the rape itself, which recieves the same punishment as consensual sex?

No not the same. There is the added financial penalty, and the detererrent penalty such as imprisonment.

freediver wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 1:00pm:

Quote:

It is deceptive for you to call adultery and fornication "consensual". Did God Almighty consent to this act? God created all human beings, he did not give permission for people to commit fornication or adultery.

Can you elaborate please? Do you know what consensual means?

Consensual means all parties agree. As God owns all human beings, he is a party. Fornicators and adulterers do not have God's consent to carry out their crimes.

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« Last Edit: Mar 10^th, 2012 at 11:33pm by falah »

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falah

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Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Reply #49 - Mar 10^th, 2012 at 7:36pm

Soren wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 1:31pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 12:53pm:

Soren wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 10:11am:

You are also, predictably, silent on the solo lady traveller.

One of the ones I have spoken to was a solo traveller, and she was also the most positive about the treatment she received.

I don't believe you.

Women travelling alone in Italy and Greece, let alone Turkey, do not have positive experinces. It is a lie that solo lady travellers in Egypt, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan or Pakistan have had positive experiences about their treatment. Unless they were travelling prostitutes. Which is how the men in those countries would have treated them.

When I was in Jordan, I actually saw an Australian woman living with the beouins at Petra. She looked pretty happy.

Yvonne Ridley said she was treated with respect by the Taliban despite entering their country without a visa.

http://www.journeywoman.com/gfc/egypt.html

http://www.journeywoman.com/gfc/20ThingsWomanShouldKnowIstanbul.html

http://www.journeywoman.com/girltalk/Jordan/TravellingtoJordan.htm

http://www.themanoftwistsandturns.com/2011/04/02/married-to-mohammadmarguerite-van-geldermalsen%E2%80%99s-writing-life-interview/

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Emma

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Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Reply #50 - Mar 10^th, 2012 at 8:15pm

falah wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 7:25pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 1:00pm:

[quote author=7477604A6774667D7C71150 link=1330935607/44#44 date=1331347952][quote author=2B3F282829243B283F4D0 link=1330935607/41#41 date=1331339063]I was referring to the Muslim tradition of ignoring the rape and punishing the consensual sex. Civilised people don't do that.

There is no basis in Islam for ignoring rape. Schoars of islam have said that even if the punishment for illegal sexual intercourse cannot be implemented due to lack of witnesses in the trial, then the victims word can still be taken and the rapist still face a deterrent punishment such as imprisonment.

Islamic scholars have expressly said that the victim should not be punished.

People can only be punished in islam for what they have voluntarily done. There is no punishment for being forced to do something or crimes commited whilst considered inacapacitated eg. asleep, mentally ill, below the age of knowing right from wrong, etc.

So the punishment is the same,

Ihave just explained to you that the punishment is not the same, there is a whipping or stoning, but also a financial penalty and also jailing. The rapist who uses a weapon faces further punishments such as double amputation or crucifixion

freediver wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 1:00pm:

just that the victim gets let off?

[/b]

You insinuation is false.

In Islamic law, a victim would be charged with illegal sexual conduct. So there is nothing to let them off from.

freediver wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 1:00pm:

Quote:

In Islamic law, the rape victim is entitled to compensation from the attacker.

So for the attacker, this is the only real difference - the financial penalty?

I think we understand pretty clearly......it's a one way street,, the victim IS PUNISHED.!!!
What else is there to say, but convoluted verbiage cannot save you from you own words. !

.

In Islamic law, a victim would be charged with illegal sexual conduct. So there is nothing to let them off from.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: does Islam equate sex and rape? Reply #51 - Mar 10^th, 2012 at 8:54pm falah wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 7:36pm: I actually saw an Australian woman living with the beouins at Petra. She looked pretty happy. Travelling, beared numptie, travelling. If that woman was living there, she would have been someone's chattel.
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Emma Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9853 OZ Gender:	Re: does Islam equate sex and rape? Reply #52 - Mar 10^th, 2012 at 9:32pm thats the best you can do Falah? You said .... ' In Islamic law, a victim would be charged with illegal sexual conduct. So there is nothing to let them off from'. You said this ...Did you not?? Ignoring it won't make it go away.!
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freediver

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Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Reply #53 - Mar 10^th, 2012 at 10:18pm

Quote:

Islamic scholars have expressly said that the victim should not be punished.

Like I said, it was a separate incident. There have been recent cases in the middle east where foreigners have reported a rape to local authorities only to get imprisoned for a different count of consensual sex. It's a bit hard to track down the rapist, but they admitted having sex consensually with someone else prior to the rape. So they got put in prison. As is Allah's will.

Quote:

Ihave just explained to you that the punishment is not the same, there is a whipping or stoning

For both consensual sex and rape, right?

Quote:

but also a financial penalty and also jailing

Yes Falah, you have pointed this out before. I have acknowledged it before, and also pointed out how strange it is that you can get stoned to death for consensual sex and fined and jailed for rape. I have asked you why you think being stoned to death is the lighter punishment. You have ignored this. Now we are doing it all over again. Are you up for round three?

Quote:

You insinuation is false. In Islamic law, a victim would be charged with illegal sexual conduct. So there is nothing to let them off from.

If it is rape, they do not get charged. If they consented to the sex, they do get charged. How is this insinuation false?

Quote:

Consensual means all parties agree. As God owns all human beings, he is a party. Fornicators and adulterers do not have God's consent to carry out their crimes.

I am not denying that you believe this. I am merely pointing out that the punishment for consensual sex is just as bad if not worse than that for rape. Adding a fine to the punishment for rape does not really change that and I am puzzled as to why you think it would make it appear any better.

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abu_rashid

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Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Reply #54 - Mar 10^th, 2012 at 10:56pm

freediver wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 10:18pm:

Like I said, it was a separate incident. There have been recent cases in the middle east where foreigners have reported a rape to local authorities only to get imprisoned for a different count of consensual sex.

Please provide an example, and ensure it is not someone who committed adultery, and then tried to use rape as a way of getting off.

Also are we talking about Islam here? Or what Middle Eastern countries implement in the post-Islamic era?

You regularly fail to stipulate which one it is, and then run off crying that nobody will answer your questions and we're all changing topic, just because you refuse to actually clarify what it is you're purporting to speak about.

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falah

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Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Reply #55 - Mar 10^th, 2012 at 11:35pm

Emma wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 9:32pm:

thats the best you can do Falah? Roll Eyes

You said .... ' In Islamic law, a victim would be charged with illegal sexual conduct. So there is nothing to let them off from'.

You said this ...Did you not?? Ignoring it won't make it go away.!
Huh

That was simply a typo. Naturally, what was meant was that a rape victim would

not

be charged with illegal sexual conduct.

The rest of my posts should make that abundantly clear.

Quote:

There is no punishment for the woman if it is true that he forced her and overpowered her...

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/72338

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Emma

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Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Reply #56 - Mar 10^th, 2012 at 11:41pm

another null response - from Abu this time.
Is this so embarrassing to you?? so bad! 'cos you look bad... your failure to reply to my specifically direct post seems to me to be TYPICAL.

Quick to claim Allah is onside, but obviously not convinced.!
TYPICAL of the muslim male.... whatever country sect or whatever .... you are all the same in this.!!!

OK sorry -- that's a generalisation. I understand there are a few, limited parts of Islam that DO NOT seek to imprison and torture the women in their sway,,, but they ARE ..few and far between. and this pathetic effort by Falah and A R to pretend I didn't ask the question... in fact - is an example of the way they believe... that I, being a white non-muslim female, am not a real person who even deserves an answer. I refute that entirely, in all its layers.

So I'll say here, I'll get no reasoned or reasonable reponse from these spokesmen for Allah. And that is sad, because,??????... I could go on..but I won't.

The ONLY (blatant , claimed male islamic ) response I ever get is from an apparent male moslem poster -- some twat who calls itself Karnal.

Surely you can do better ABU? FALAH?

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Emma

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Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Reply #57 - Mar 10^th, 2012 at 11:54pm

falah wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 11:35pm:

Emma wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 9:32pm:

thats the best you can do Falah? Roll Eyes

You said .... ' In Islamic law, a victim would be charged with illegal sexual conduct. So there is nothing to let them off from'.

You said this ...Did you not?? Ignoring it won't make it go away.!
Huh

That was simply a typo. Naturally, what was meant was that a rape victim would [u]

not

be charged with illegal sexual conduct.

The rest of my posts should make that abundantly clear.[/u]
Quote:

There is no punishment for the woman if it is true that he forced her and overpowered her...

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/72338

Abundantly clear??? No I don't think so - not at all.

In what circumstance could one even imagine the conditions you have stated for NOT punishing the victim be shown true.?? She must prove this else be punished. !!!

-There is no punishment for the woman if it is true that he forced her and overpowered her...

So absent witnesses for the woman, she is a goner. I can only imagine 'this truth' might just stand up if the woman was in her own compound, and some un-related male breached the home, and beat and raped her, in front of witnesses. NOT LIKELY is it????

Hypocrits , large and small, you surely embrace it ALL.!! Huh

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falah

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Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Reply #58 - Mar 10^th, 2012 at 11:59pm

freediver wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 10:18pm:

Quote:

Islamic scholars have expressly said that the victim should not be punished.

Like I said, it was a separate incident. There have been recent cases in the middle east where foreigners have reported a rape to local authorities only to get imprisoned for a different count of consensual sex. It's a bit hard to track down the rapist, but they admitted having sex consensually with someone else prior to the rape. So they got put in prison. As is Allah's will.

You don't have any references to back up this story? Even if that story were true, the woman has not been arrested for being raped has she?

freediver wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 10:18pm:

Quote:

Ihave just explained to you that the punishment is not the same, there is a whipping or stoning

For both consensual sex and rape, right?

For adultery or fornication, that is the maximum punishment for first offence. For the crime of rape it is the minimum punishment. Understand the difference? Is minimum and maximum too difficult a legal concept for you to grasp?

freediver wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 10:18pm:

Quote:

but also a financial penalty and also jailing

Yes Falah, you have pointed this out before. I have acknowledged it before, and also pointed out how strange it is that you can get stoned to death for consensual sex and fined and jailed for rape.

I didn't say that it would occur in that order. Although, obviously execution for a rapist is a severe punishment, and we don't usually go beyond simple executions.

freediver wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 10:18pm:

I have asked you why you think being stoned to death is the lighter punishment. You have ignored this. Now we are doing it all over again. Are you up for round three?

I never said it is the lighter punishment. In Islam, adultery (a married person having sex outside of marriage) is considered a serious crime, and it carries the death penalty.

All illegal; sex is bad, but obviously we cant do much more than execute the married rapist - unless he uses a weapon. Then he can face a double amputation as well as execution.

Quote:

You insinuation is false. In Islamic law, a victim would not be charged with illegal sexual conduct. So there is nothing to let them off from.

freediver wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 10:18pm:

If it is rape, they do not get charged. If they consented to the sex, they do get charged. How is this insinuation false?

If you are not insinuating that rape victims would be charged, then I don't know why you would even bother to bring it up in the first place.

freediver wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 10:18pm:

Quote:

Consensual means all parties agree. As God owns all human beings, he is a party. Fornicators and adulterers do not have God's consent to carry out their crimes.

I am not denying that you believe this. I am merely pointing out that the punishment for consensual sex is just as bad if not worse than that for rape. Adding a fine to the punishment for rape does not really change that and I am puzzled as to why you think it would make it appear any better.

As I said, the stoning/whipping is a maximum for illegal sex, but a minimum punishment for a rapist. Minimum and maximum do you understand what that means? The punishment for rape cannot be less than the punishment for illegal sex because the punishment for illegal sex is the minimum punishment for the rapist. If we execute the rapist, what more would you expect could be done to him? We can't make him die twice.

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freediver

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Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Reply #59 - Mar 11^th, 2012 at 9:16am

Quote:

Please provide an example, and ensure it is not someone who committed adultery, and then tried to use rape as a way of getting off.

No Abu. They voluntarily went in to report the rape. During the interrogation they admitted having consensual sex.

Quote:

Also are we talking about Islam here? Or what Middle Eastern countries implement in the post-Islamic era?

I guess it is a post Islamic thing, seeing as the punishment for consensual sex was not as barbaric as Islam proscribes.

Quote:

You regularly fail to stipulate which one it is

Given that you claim that no Islamic state exists, you can hardly blame me for your own confusion. But you would have to be pretty dishonest to rpetend that these attitudes and punishments are not a hangover from the days of Shariah. The only difference is they are not as barbaric.

Quote:

So absent witnesses for the woman, she is a goner.

Interesting that you should claim this, given that Abu's (and Falah's) first response to the story about a foreign rape victim getting put in jail for consensual sex was that she made up the rape story to cover her 'crime'. Is it any wonder that a rape victim who reports a crime voluntarily to Muslims ends up getting thrown in jail? And to think, Abu even tries to use the low reported rate of rape as evidence that the actual rate is lower than in countries where reporting is encouraged.

Quote:

For adultery or fornication, that is the maximum punishment for first offence. For the crime of rape it is the minimum punishment. Understand the difference?

You previously only mentioned stoning in the context of consensual sex. If being whipped then stoned to death is the minimum punishment for rape, why did you previously describe the extra puinishment of a fine and jail time on top of whipping? It sounds to me like you are making it up as you go along.

Quote:

I didn't say that it would occur in that order. Although, obviously execution for a rapist is a severe punishment, and we don't usually go beyond simple executions.

Here you go contradicting yourself again. Above you said it was the minimum penalty. Now it is the severe one?

Quote:

I never said it is the lighter punishment. In Islam, adultery (a married person having sex outside of marriage) is considered a serious crime, and it carries the death penalty.

And once more you contradict yourself. Is death penalty the statutory punishement or the maximum available punishment? As far as I can tell you agree with me that Islam does not distinguish between rape and consensual sex (you even reject this concept) in any significant way, buit you merely insist that I try to spin it the same way as you.

Quote:

All illegal; sex is bad, but obviously we cant do much more than execute the married rapist - unless he uses a weapon.

Can you explain the married bit here? Are you saying that the punishment for rape is made along the same lines as the punishment for consensual sex - that if the rapist is married he gets the same punishment as a married person who has sex outside of marriage? I am having trouble seeing why you appear to be disagreeing with me here.

Quote:

If you are not insinuating that rape victims would be charged, then I don't know why you would even bother to bring it up in the first place.

I'll give you a hint - look at the topic of this thread. I found a way in which Islam does distinguish rape and consensual sex - by not punishing the victim of rape (unless of course they can pin something else on her).

Quote:

The punishment for rape cannot be less than the punishment for illegal sex because the punishment for illegal sex is the minimum punishment for the rapist.

Right. My point exactly. And the 'extra' punishment for it being non-consensual is insignificant, unless you consider a fine to be harsher than getting stoned to death. That is, Islam equate sex and rape.

Quote:

If we execute the rapist, what more would you expect could be done to him? We can't make him die twice.

Again, you are right Falah. Islam equates sex and rape.

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