Australian Politics Forum - Does Islam permit rape?

falah

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Re: Does Islam permit rape?
Reply #45 - May 23^rd, 2012 at 10:08pm

freediver wrote on May 23^rd, 2012 at 5:56pm:

Falah it's not like you to post about Islam here.

Quote:

In addition to this, there are also some press reports that intend to provoke public opinion or controversy by publishing some defamatory images. For example, a television report screened during the trial session of the nine defendants who were prosecuted on charges of rape, sexual assault and trafficking for the purpose of sexual exploitation, amongst other crimes, showed the defendants standing in front of a mosque.

How is this defamatory? Are you suggesting the association with Islam would be demeaning to an upstanding rapist?

Freeliar, how often does the Western media publish pictures of Christian criminals standing outside a church?

freediver wrote on May 23^rd, 2012 at 5:56pm:

Quote:

The comparison is truly scandalous when compared with the manner in which crimes involving the sexual abuse of children inside churches at the hands of priests are dealt with, for despite the noise and controversy surrounding such scandals, we have never heard anybody linking this to Christianity as a religion or to the priests’ ethnic background.

LOL. Never let reality get in the way of good spin eh?

Be honest Freeliar. you know that the link between crimianlity and Christianity is never made in the Western media when Christians commit a crime...or for that matter atheism when an atheist commits a crime.

freediver wrote on May 23^rd, 2012 at 5:56pm:

Quote:

This is how the majority of media outlets used this term in their reports, rather than saying ‘White Christians’, for example, in the same manner that the Pakistanis were described as ‘Asian Muslims.’

Might have something to do with these 'white men' not choosing to have thier photo taken with their lawyers in front of a church to play up their christian links.

You mean like the rapist priests and their enablers who wear their priest clothes to court:

http://s3.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/m=02&d=20100415&t=2&i=92512832&w=320&fh=&fw=&ll=&pl=&r=2010-04-15T225205Z_01_BTRE63E1RIW00_RTROPTP_0_PICAN

freediver wrote on May 23^rd, 2012 at 5:56pm:

Quote:

focusing on the defendants’ religion and their Pakistani roots as well as attacking the defendants’ ‘inferior culture’ regarding the treatment of women

Their culture is inferior when it comes to the treatment of women.

Do you actually know any Pakistanis Freeliar? All the ones I have met treat women with great respect.

freediver wrote on May 23^rd, 2012 at 5:56pm:

Falah, given that modern Muslims such as you and Abu promote the loveless marriage of even prepubescent girls to old men, the taking of women as slaves in war, and oppose legal punishment of men who rape their wives and slaves, the negative images of Islam are hardly unfair. If Muslims want people to stop portraying them as backwards and barbaric, the answer is simple: stop being backwards and barbaric.

Freeliar you just cannot help yourself from lying can you? All the above is completely untrue.

Don't you see how twisted your own soul is that you can make up such utter lies?

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freediver

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Re: Does Islam permit rape?
Reply #46 - May 23^rd, 2012 at 10:15pm

Quote:

Be honest Freeliar. you know that the link between crimianlity and Christianity is never made in the Western media when Christians commit a crime...or for that matter atheism when an atheist commits a crime

The catholic priest pedophile thing receives a lot of media attention, but you don't see Christians whining about it. Instead they are trying to root out the pedophiles. The atheism thing is just stupid. Muslims use Islam as an excuse to make their women cover up and deny them other fundamental human rights. If you ever see an atheist using atheism as an excuse to do the same let me know. The media links communism with everything done in the name of communism for example, but the link with atheism is tenuous at best. Just because you make everything revolve around your spiritual beliefs to the exclusion of thinking for yourself does not mean others do the same.

Quote:

You mean like the rapist priests and their enablers who wear their priest clothes to court:

Yes Falah, thanks for demonstrating that the media does go to an effort to include the symbolism these people bring to court.

Quote:

Freeliar you just cannot help yourself from lying can you? All the above is completely untrue.

Remind us again what the punishment is for raping your wife or slave in Islam? Tell us what the difference is between permitting rape and not allowing it to be punished?

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freediver

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Re: Does Islam permit rape?
Reply #47 - Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 6:30pm

freediver wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 8:22am:

Quote:

Like your claims about spousal rape - Falah is used as a source for the claim that islam permits spousal rape, even though in the thread you linked he argued at length the exact opposite.

Then conceded that spousal rape is indeed legal under Islam. As is sex slavery. BTW, I also used it as an example of Muslims deliberately misleading people. Cunning eh? ANd it only took me about 50 pages to get the straight answer.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 10:42am:

freediver wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 8:22am:

Then conceded that spousal rape is indeed legal under Islam.

No he didn't. Seriously, what motivates such bare faced lies?

freediver wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 12:45pm:

Here you go Gandalf:

falah wrote on Mar 4^th, 2012 at 12:16pm:

Forced sex in marriage is not a punishable offence in Islam.

Lucky we have the wiki hey? Otherwise all we would see is 100 pages of Falah accusing me of lying because Islam encourages men to respect their wives (while also insisting it is a wife's duty to satisfy her husband on demand).

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 1:18pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 12:45pm:

Here you go Gandalf:

That was the most predictable reply ever. As pointed out in the very thread you quote, that is not a concession that it is legal under islam. I believe Falah himself went back and explained that to you.

you make sh!t up to slander islam - the quicker you acknowledge this the quicker we can all move on. Acknowledgement is the first stage to recovery FD.

How else would you interpret "not a punishable offence"?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Does Islam permit rape?
Reply #48 - Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 6:42pm

failing to pay tax and treason is not technically a punishable offense in islam either - but it is still forbidden.

Falah is right - you need to find a specific reference in the quran or hadith saying that spousal rape is ok before you can declare islam permits it.

There is more than enough references in the quran to get a very clear idea that any disrespect and abuse of women - which obviously includes spousal rape - is forbidden. Stop making sh!t up.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: Does Islam permit rape?
Reply #49 - Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 7:30pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 6:42pm:

Falah is right - you need to find a specific reference in the quran or hadith saying that spousal rape is ok before you can declare islam permits it.

There is more than enough references in the quran to get a very clear idea that any disrespect and abuse of women - which obviously includes spousal rape - is forbidden. Stop making sh!t up.

And Mohammed never raped captive women, either, you say.

Don't you ?

Islamonausea Rising in the West
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1367418236/268#268

FROM THE KORAN,

"..Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess:..."
Koran 4.22-24

"O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee;..."
Koran 33.50

"women.....whom your right hands possess"
???

Q.
What does that mean ???

A.
war booty, i.e. captive women.

gandalf,

What happened if those captive women didn't want to have sex with Mohammed ?

Did Mohammed just accept their rejection of him, do you think ?

Would those captive women even dare to express that they didn't want to engage in sex, demanded by their moslem owner/master ???

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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freediver

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Re: Does Islam permit rape?
Reply #50 - Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 8:08pm

Quote:

failing to pay tax and treason is not technically a punishable offense in islam either - but it is still forbidden.

Most of the Muslims I have spoken to say you get the death penalty for treason (the same ones who admit spousal rape is not a punishable offence). If there was no punishment for not paying tax, I would not pay it. That makes it optional. If it is punishable, then it is punishable. Either way, it is kind of irrelevant.

Quote:

Falah is right - you need to find a specific reference in the quran or hadith saying that spousal rape is ok before you can declare islam permits it.

That is not how it works in reality Gandalf. That is backwards Muslim logic. Things are not illegal until you find a verse in the Koran specifically legalising them. It is obligatory for a wife to satisfy her husbands sexual demands on request, and spousal rape is not a punishable offence. In fact, wherever Islam permits sex, it permits rape. And wherever sex is forbidden, rape and consensual sex attract the same punishment. It's as if the Islamic legal system is completely oblivious to rape. No wonder you take the line that I need to find a verse specifically permitting it.

Quote:

There is more than enough references in the quran to get a very clear idea that any disrespect and abuse of women - which obviously includes spousal rape - is forbidden. Stop making sh!t up.

Yes, you would expect rape to be disrespectful, and other Muslims have made the same point, yet they also conceded that sex slaves are permitted, as well as what I mentioned above about rape and sex in general. In fact, there is a verse about Muhammed congratulating a soldier for preventing the escape of some women, thus enabling Muhammed and his mates to rape them without breaking whatever rules there are about what you can have sex with and when. Obviously he did not specifically say rape is permitted, but he might as well have. These are the contradictions of the Koran. I suspect it boils down to projecting modern concepts of respect for women. There are all sorts of nasty surprises for women in the Koran. They are basically second class citizens at best, and sex slaves at worst.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Does Islam permit rape?
Reply #51 - Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 11:02pm

freediver wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 8:08pm:

In fact, there is a verse about Muhammed congratulating a soldier for preventing the escape of some women, thus enabling Muhammed and his mates to rape them without breaking whatever rules there are about what you can have sex with and when.

I can assure you, no such verse exists in the Quran. Why do I bother?

You realise that entire spiel about permitting rape is based on something you just made up right?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Does Islam permit rape?
Reply #52 - Jul 3^rd, 2013 at 12:56am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 11:02pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 8:08pm:

In fact, there is a verse about Muhammed congratulating a soldier for preventing the escape of some women, thus enabling Muhammed and his mates to rape them without breaking whatever rules there are about what you can have sex with and when.

I can assure you, no such verse exists in the Quran. Why do I bother?

You realise that entire spiel about permitting rape is based on something you just made up right?

So what is the arabic word for rape?

Zina is unlawful intercourse which could apply to consenting unmarried adults.

Mohammad had sex slaves, the quran tells you to follow his example in 33/21.
Sex slaves are halal for muslim men-
www.islamqa.com/en/ref/10382/slave

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Does Islam permit rape? Reply #53 - Jul 3^rd, 2013 at 7:57am I'm not talking about that Baron, I'm talking about the verse from the quran that FD just invented. Do you think not making sh!t up should be a prerequisite for having a sensible and rational debate?
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Yadda

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Re: Does Islam permit rape?
Reply #54 - Jul 3^rd, 2013 at 8:50am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2013 at 7:57am:

Do you think not making sh!t up should be a prerequisite for having a sensible and rational debate?

gandalf,

Not that i am suggesting that FD is, 'making sh!t up',
......but promoting falsehood as a truth, doesn't seem to have EVER been an obstacle to moslem morality, whenever moslems seek to develop and establish a 'relationships' with non-moslem communities.

e.g.
The Muslim Council of Britain [which presents itself as the umbrella organisation representing all British 'mainstream' muslims] has declared that the moslem community of the UK, condemns extremism and violence....

Quote:

Rejecting Terror
Thursday, 11 April 2013

Muslims everywhere consider all acts of terrorism that aims to murder and maim innocent human beings utterly reprehensible and abhorrent. There is no theological basis whatsoever for such acts in our faith. The very meaning of the word 'Islam' is peace. It rejects terror and promotes peace and harmony.

http://www.mcb.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2307:mcbnewst...
http://www.mcb.org.uk/article_detail.php?article=announcement-656

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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freediver

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Re: Does Islam permit rape?
Reply #55 - Jul 3^rd, 2013 at 6:35pm

Quote:

You realise that entire spiel about permitting rape is based on something you just made up right?

No gandalf. It is based on Muslims admitting that it is a wifes duty under Islamic law to satisfy her husbands sexual desires on demand, rejecting the idea of consent on the part of the woman involved, that spousal rape is not a punishable offence, that Islam permits sex slaves in addition to multiple wives and that Islam permits the rape of women caught in battle.

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freediver

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Re: Does Islam permit rape?
Reply #56 - Jul 3^rd, 2013 at 6:51pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Expedition_of_Wadi_al-Qura

According to the Muslim jurist al-Tabari and the Orientalist scholar William Muir, Qais tied each of Umm Qirfa's legs with a rope, and attached the ropes to two camels. Then he drove the camels in opposite directions thus renting her in two.[9][10] The circumstances of her death however are not mentioned in any Hadith collections, leading to some scholars doubting the authenticity of the way she was killed. Another version of this story says that the leader of this raid was Abu Bakr. Mohammed did not disapprove of the way she was killed, according to the Muslim jurist al-Tabari.

The event is mentioned in detail in the Sunni hadith collection, Sahih Muslim. It mentions that Umm Qirfa's daughter was exchanged for Muslim prisoners, who were held in Mecca.

It has been narrated on the authority of Salama (b. al-Akwa') who said: We fought against the Fazara and Abu Bakr was the commander over us. He had been appointed by the Messenger oi Allah (may peace be upon him). When we were only at an hour's distance from the water of the enemy, Abu Bakr ordered us to attack. We made a halt during the last part of the night tor rest and then we attacked from all sides and reached their watering-place where a battle was fought. Some of the enemies were killed and some were taken prisoners. I saw a group of persons that consisted of women and children. I was afraid lest they should reach the mountain before me, so I shot an arrow between them and the mountain. When they saw the arrow, they stopped. So I brought them, driving them along. Among them was a woman from Banu Fazara. She was wearing a leather coat. With her was her daughter who was one of the prettiest girls in Arabia. I drove them along until I brought them to Abu Bakr who bestowed that girl upon me as a prize. So we arrived in Medina. I had not yet disrobed her when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) met me in the street and said: Give me that girl, O Salama. I said: Messenger of Allah, she has fascinated me. I had not yet disrobed her. When on the next day. the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) again met me in the street, he said: O Salama, give me that girl, may God bless your father. I said: She is for you. Messenger of Allah! By Allah. I have not yet disrobed her. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent her to the people of Mecca, and surrendered her as ransom for a number of Muslims who had been kept as prisoners at Mecca. Sahih Muslim, 19:4345

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Does Islam permit rape?
Reply #57 - Jul 3^rd, 2013 at 7:36pm

You don't seem to understand FD - you made up a story about what was in the Quran, and used it to smear Islam. You are not disputing that it was made up, and instead pretend that you were basing your argument on something completely different.

I will deal with these other claims, but it needs to be emphasised that apart from anything else, its pretty poor form to base your accusations about an entire group of people on something that is so patently false. And its become a pattern - in two days you have claimed "slaughtering jews is in the Koran" and "ethnic cleansing is written in to the quran" - which are all false.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Does Islam permit rape? Reply #58 - Jul 3^rd, 2013 at 7:54pm Soooo FD - you have given us two accounts of the prophet - one of a gruesome execution that has very little historical validity, and another account of the prophet rescuing a captured female before she is raped, and releasing her back to her people. Sinister eh?
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freediver

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Re: Does Islam permit rape?
Reply #59 - Jul 3^rd, 2013 at 7:55pm

Quote:

in two days you have claimed "slaughtering jews is in the Koran" and "ethnic cleansing is written in to the quran" - which are all false

And yet you disproved this by pointing out the bits where Jews were slaughtered and where ethnic cleansing was ordered by Muhammed. Apparently it was not a slaughter because the Jews were OK with it....

Quote:

and another account of the prophet rescuing a captured female before she is raped, and releasing her back to her people

He traded one of the captured women, who was originally offered to a soldier as a prize for preventing the women and children from escaping. If there is any way to interpret the story as raping the women being illegal, please explain. Also, can you please point out the bit about her going back to her own people?

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Question: How Rapists Be Dealt With
Off with their heads! Sharia style! 2 (100.0%) Couple of years in jail will do 0 (0.0%) Luxury Jails like Sweden 0 (0.0%) Total votes: 2 « Created by: True Colours on: Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 3:47pm »