Australian Politics Forum - Why Should I Believe?

Yadda

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #120 - Apr 23^rd, 2012 at 1:57pm

muso wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2012 at 10:07am:

Yadda wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2012 at 2:27am:

muso,

I'm sorry, but haven't you previously expressed the view that depressed people should seek professional psychological help ?

And along with counselling, don't psychologists prescribe 'chemical' relief, of the feelings of those who are not 'coping' ?

I can understand why society accepts such treatment, of those who have a damaged psyche.

But i do not agree with such treatment.

I believe that such treatments [with drugs], poisons the bodies of their patients, AND, also then makes them drug dependant.

Dictionary;
psyche = = the human soul, mind, or spirit.

....I think you're being very precious indeed to imply that no true Christians have mental conditions. Grin

As a counter to that, I do think that many neo-atheists are in danger of neglecting their "spiritual" health. They throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Whilst I concur that wherever possible we should avoid taking any drugs, even prescription ones, there are certainly cases where it provides a person with the possibility of a normal life.

Epilepsy is a case in point. It's interesting the correlation between epilepsy and religion, don't you think?

http://www.mendeley.com/research/an-investigation-of-religiosity-and-the-gastaut...

Before our religiously atheistic zealots jump on this, a religious person might interpret this differently from a non religious person. Grin

[I CLICKED THE LINK.....3 minutes later, i was still waiting for something to appear on my screen. Sad

i closed the page. I hate the fact that many modern internet pages seem to have megabytes of 'padding', when the actual content [which you clicked the page for] is probably / maybe only 50-200 kb's. in any case, all of the padding in their pages is wasted on me! my dailup today is connected @ 21 kb/sec]

muso,

I think that everyone of us [humans] is psychologically flawed, including Christians.

I do not think that Jesus Christ was flawed, i think that he was healthy, and the perfect man. Wink

But i think that i would define a Christian as a person who aspires to be Christ like.

But i don't believe that any human being has achieved his perfection.

hey muso,

"All the world is mad except me and thee, and even thou art a little strange!"

unkown

Grin

Quote:

Epilepsy is a case in point. It's interesting the correlation between epilepsy and religion, don't you think?

[I did not view the material.]
Interesting yes.
But i don't find this surprising at all.
....being that i believe in the influence of evil angels [demons].

'Religion' is a 'doorway' to the spirit world.

SATAN wants, and is seeking to attract all of the company he can get.
And imo, he and his agents will do everything that they can to guide the human psyche to his abode.
It is a trap.
SATAN will ensnare the unwary, the foolish.iMatthew 7:13
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Matthew 6:33
....seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness;....

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Sir Spot of Borg Gold Member Offline WE ARE BORG Posts: 26513 Australia	Re: Why Should I Believe? Reply #121 - Apr 23^rd, 2012 at 3:57pm "spiritual" health There is no such thing as spirits. This is why atheists "neglect" to take notice of it. This "spiritual" business that religious (and especially xtians) lately have been trying to disguise their religion with it transparent to any non-believer. Give it up. SOB
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nairbe

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #122 - Apr 23^rd, 2012 at 7:06pm

Yadda wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2012 at 1:57pm:

muso wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2012 at 10:07am:

[quote author=11292C2C29480 link=1334452618/85#85 date=1335025644]

[quote]Epilepsy is a case in point. It's interesting the correlation between epilepsy and religion, don't you think?

SATAN wants, and is seeking to attract all of the company he can get.
And imo, he and his agents will do everything that they can to guide the human psyche to his abode.
It is a trap.
SATAN will ensnare the unwary, the foolish.

I hope i misunderstand this as i am angry beyond belief. What kind of sick and ignorant animal would connect Epilepsy to evil. I have an epileptic child and this is a serious neurological disease that is known but still has a long way to go. This type of ignorance is why i have no respect for religion. What do you want an exorcism, maybe some inquisition torture will drive the devil out.

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"Faced with what is right, to leave it undone shows a lack of courage."
Confucius

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Soren

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #123 - Apr 23^rd, 2012 at 11:53pm

bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2012 at 9:52am:

Philosophy depends on reality.
If there is nothing to answer then it cannot answer it.
When science uncovers what that 'nothing' might be as to the creation of the universe then philosophy will probably do a great job at analysing and interpreting it for people who need more then a spreadsheet.

I agree, this is why I treat theists like crap because this is how they have treated the rest of society for thousands of years.

Stupid as ever.

If you were right, science would have emerged spontaneously in every society and every epoch.

But it didn't.

And even where it did (ancient Greece and 17th century Europe) it was a different kind of science because the respective philosophical outlooks were different. The former was non-experimental, the latter experimental.

Both ancient Greece and 16th century Europe were religious.

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #124 - Apr 24^th, 2012 at 8:16am

nairbe wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2012 at 7:06pm:

Yadda wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2012 at 1:57pm:

muso wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2012 at 10:07am:

[quote author=11292C2C29480 link=1334452618/85#85 date=1335025644]

[quote]Epilepsy is a case in point. It's interesting the correlation between epilepsy and religion, don't you think?

SATAN wants, and is seeking to attract all of the company he can get.
And imo, he and his agents will do everything that they can to guide the human psyche to his abode.
It is a trap.
SATAN will ensnare the unwary, the foolish.

I hope i misunderstand this as i am angry beyond belief. What kind of sick and ignorant animal would connect Epilepsy to evil. I have an epileptic child and this is a serious neurological disease that is known but still has a long way to go. This type of ignorance is why i have no respect for religion. What do you want an exorcism, maybe some inquisition torture will drive the devil out.

In my experience the ones that go too far and start seeing "demons" everywhere and rebuking them etc are actually suffering from neurological disorder and need treatment.

SOB

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muso

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #125 - Apr 24^th, 2012 at 9:54am

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2012 at 3:57pm:

"spiritual" health

There is no such thing as spirits. This is why atheists "neglect" to take notice of it. This "spiritual" business that religious (and especially xtians) lately have been trying to disguise their religion with it transparent to any non-believer. Give it up.

SOB

I agree that there are no such things as spirits, but what I'm talking about is a function of the human mind. It's not mental health, but the term "spiritual health" is more apt.

It's one of these things that's hard to describe. It includes things like the beauty of nature, great music, inspiration, meditation in a quiet environment, the appreciation of the vastness of the universe from watching a clear clouless night sky in the outback. These are feelings that we all experience.

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #126 - Apr 24^th, 2012 at 9:59am

muso wrote on Apr 24^th, 2012 at 9:54am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2012 at 3:57pm:

"spiritual" health

There is no such thing as spirits. This is why atheists "neglect" to take notice of it. This "spiritual" business that religious (and especially xtians) lately have been trying to disguise their religion with it transparent to any non-believer. Give it up.

SOB

I agree that there are no such things as spirits, but what I'm talking about is a function of the human mind. It's not mental health, but the term "spiritual health" is more apt.

It's one of these things that's hard to describe. It includes things like the beauty of nature, great music, inspiration, meditation in a quiet environment, the appreciation of the vastness of the universe from watching a clear clouless night sky in the outback. These are feelings that we all experience.

Yeah spirituality is basically a religious concept. Atheists can appreciate a sunrise or mozart just fine without assigning "gods" to it.

You will prolly get all pedantic with me over the "word" but basically ppl use the word in a religious context.

SOB

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muso

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #127 - Apr 24^th, 2012 at 10:08am

Yadda wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2012 at 1:57pm:

muso,

I think that everyone of us [humans] is psychologically flawed, including Christians.

I do not think that Jesus Christ was flawed, i think that he was healthy, and the perfect man. Wink

But i think that i would define a Christian as a person who aspires to be Christ like.

But i don't believe that any human being has achieved his perfection.

hey muso,

"All the world is mad except me and thee, and even thou art a little strange!"

unkown

Grin

Quote:

Epilepsy is a case in point. It's interesting the correlation between epilepsy and religion, don't you think?

[I did not view the material.]
Interesting yes.
But i don't find this surprising at all.
....being that i believe in the influence of evil angels [demons].

'Religion' is a 'doorway' to the spirit world.

SATAN wants, and is seeking to attract all of the company he can get.
And imo, he and his agents will do everything that they can to guide the human psyche to his abode.
It is a trap.
SATAN will ensnare the unwary, the foolish.

I think you put your foot in it well and truly. You probably owe a few apologies. Epilepsy is a neurological condition that can be treated, and many Christians take medication for it.

The link correlates parietal lobe activity with religiosity. What I was getting at is that religious people may regard that as just a way in which God chooses believers. A non religious person may look on it as evidence of physiological cause of religion.

People have been talking about cause and effect in nature for thousands of years.
Quote:

Whereas we believe lightning to be released as a result of the collision of clouds, they believe that the clouds collide so as to release lightning: for as they attribute all to deity, they are led to believe not that things have a meaning insofar as they occur, but rather that they occur because they must have a meaning.

Seneca the Younger

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muso

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #128 - Apr 24^th, 2012 at 12:24pm

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 24^th, 2012 at 9:59am:

muso wrote on Apr 24^th, 2012 at 9:54am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2012 at 3:57pm:

"spiritual" health

There is no such thing as spirits. This is why atheists "neglect" to take notice of it. This "spiritual" business that religious (and especially xtians) lately have been trying to disguise their religion with it transparent to any non-believer. Give it up.

SOB

I agree that there are no such things as spirits, but what I'm talking about is a function of the human mind. It's not mental health, but the term "spiritual health" is more apt.

It's one of these things that's hard to describe. It includes things like the beauty of nature, great music, inspiration, meditation in a quiet environment, the appreciation of the vastness of the universe from watching a clear clouless night sky in the outback. These are feelings that we all experience.

Yeah spirituality is basically a religious concept. Atheists can appreciate a sunrise or mozart just fine without assigning "gods" to it.

You will prolly get all pedantic with me over the "word" but basically ppl use the word in a religious context.

SOB

Well some people do, but there are plenty of non theists or "not theists" who speak about spirituality without embarassment. You obviously haven't heard of them.

The Brights Forum is a good example. I don't post there any more because they annoy me , even though I broadly agree with their belief system.

http://www.the-brights.net

Here's another excellent site. Visit the link and read the Welcome page:

http://evolutionaryspirituality.wikia.com/wiki/Religious_Naturalism

Quote:

Spirituality – a spiritual response to life is possible without supernatural elements and entities. A spiritual life can be based on the combined objectivity of science and the emotional subjective responses to the natural world. Part of this spirituality is the wonder and awe that can exist without science, but which science amplifies. This spirituality provides a sense of humility and exuberance, and a reverence for a mysterious, magnificent Universe.

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« Last Edit: Apr 24^th, 2012 at 12:31pm by muso »

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Sir Spot of Borg Gold Member Offline WE ARE BORG Posts: 26513 Australia	Re: Why Should I Believe? Reply #129 - Apr 24^th, 2012 at 5:37pm If they believe in a god or gods then they arent non-theists. Spot
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muso

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #130 - Apr 24^th, 2012 at 6:41pm

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 24^th, 2012 at 5:37pm:

If they believe in a god or gods then they arent non-theists.

Spot

Most "Religious Naturalists" don't. You need to read the page. It's quite interesting/ They are divided into Neo-Theists, non-theists and not theists ( or non confrontational atheists if you prefer)

They basically all concur on this issue:

Quote:

The Supernatural – there is no such entity or realm

I don't even know how to differentiate the terms "supernatural" and "nonsense" except by reference to traditional religions and Hollywood productions.

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Yadda

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #131 - Apr 25^th, 2012 at 12:04am

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 24^th, 2012 at 8:16am:

nairbe wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2012 at 7:06pm:

Yadda wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2012 at 1:57pm:

muso wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2012 at 10:07am:

[quote author=11292C2C29480 link=1334452618/85#85 date=1335025644]

[quote]Epilepsy is a case in point. It's interesting the correlation between epilepsy and religion, don't you think?

SATAN wants, and is seeking to attract all of the company he can get.
And imo, he and his agents will do everything that they can to guide the human psyche to his abode.
It is a trap.
SATAN will ensnare the unwary, the foolish.

I hope i misunderstand this as i am angry beyond belief. What kind of sick and ignorant animal would connect Epilepsy to evil. I have an epileptic child and this is a serious neurological disease that is known but still has a long way to go. This type of ignorance is why i have no respect for religion. What do you want an exorcism, maybe some inquisition torture will drive the devil out.

In my experience the ones that go too far and start seeing "demons" everywhere and rebuking them etc are actually suffering from neurological disorder and need treatment.

SOB

Hey, Puss in Boots, aka SOB,

That is correct.

What ?

You are one step away from suggesting that persons who don't agree with your reality [or who don't agree with the reality of 'normal' people ], are suffering from 'neurological disorder'.

And should be detained against their will, institutionalised, and given psychotropic drugs [against their will] to help to 'heal' them.

Hmmm ?

Is that what you are suggesting ?

That is just plain evil.

Hey, SOB,

What about politics ???

If i don't agree with your politics, should i be institutionalised too ???

Lots of people would agree with such a 'political' 'remedy'.

That is the sort of thing what tyrants do, to shut people up, who don't agree with them.

They silence their critics, by [one way or another,] 'removing' them from the debate.i
+++

nairbe.....
Quote:

I hope i misunderstand this as i am angry beyond belief.

Hey nairbe,

Do you feel one of your 'fits' coming on ?

Better take your medication then !!

Or better still, see SOB, and he/she, will help, by having you committed to an institution.

OR, would you just feel so much better if your hands were grasped tightly around my neck ???

If so, then you are the one who needs help.

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« Last Edit: Apr 25^th, 2012 at 1:03am by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #132 - Apr 25^th, 2012 at 12:49am

muso wrote on Apr 24^th, 2012 at 10:08am:

Yadda wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2012 at 1:57pm:

muso,

I think that everyone of us [humans] is psychologically flawed, including Christians.

I do not think that Jesus Christ was flawed, i think that he was healthy, and the perfect man. Wink

But i think that i would define a Christian as a person who aspires to be Christ like.

But i don't believe that any human being has achieved his perfection.

hey muso,

"All the world is mad except me and thee, and even thou art a little strange!"

unkown

Grin

Quote:

Epilepsy is a case in point. It's interesting the correlation between epilepsy and religion, don't you think?

[I did not view the material.]
Interesting yes.
But i don't find this surprising at all.
....being that i believe in the influence of evil angels [demons].

'Religion' is a 'doorway' to the spirit world.

SATAN wants, and is seeking to attract all of the company he can get.
And imo, he and his agents will do everything that they can to guide the human psyche to his abode.
It is a trap.
SATAN will ensnare the unwary, the foolish.

I think you put your foot in it well and truly. You probably owe a few apologies.

Epilepsy is a neurological condition that can be treated, and many Christians take medication for it.

The link correlates parietal lobe activity with religiosity. What I was getting at is that religious people may regard that as just a way in which God chooses believers. A non religious person may look on it as evidence of physiological cause of religion.

muso,

Google;
nobody has the right to not be offended

muso,

Irrational people will try to shut down >> debate << on an issue, by 'being offended'.

Is that what you agree with ?

That we should not be allowed to offend people who we are engaged in a debate against, about politics, or spirituality, or mental issues, or religion ???

My opinion is that, ..........nairbe is presenting himself/herself, in this forum as a person who is too 'precious' to be able to engage in debate about epilepsy and its causes.

If that is the fact, then nairbe should withdraw from this debate, rather than trying to gag me, or trying to make me feel guilty, about my own beliefs on this issue.

muso.......
Quote:

I agree that there are no such things as spirits,

muso,

I'm happy for you to express such a thing.

I'm happy for you to express that my God does not exist, and that he is just my imaginary friend.

My position is that
God,
SATAN,
angels,
and demons [evil angels],
...are spirits,
...and my experience is that they are real.

And, there is a spiritual realm which is imperceptible to man's carnal mind, and it is real.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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muso

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #133 - Apr 25^th, 2012 at 7:52am

Yadda wrote on Apr 25^th, 2012 at 12:49am:

muso,

I'm happy for you to express such a thing.

I'm happy for you to express that my God does not exist, and that he is just my imaginary friend.

My position is that
God,
SATAN,
angels,
and demons [evil angels],
...are spirits,
...and my experience is that they are real.

And, there is a spiritual realm which is imperceptible to man's carnal mind, and it is real.

Yadda,

I respect your position. I understand that you genuinely believe what you say, and in no way am I being patronising (unlike some). I understand that perception has a large bearing on determining what is real.

I think you understand my position too. It's difficult to define, but it hovers around somewhere between religious naturalism, neo-theism and Deism.

I don't accept the Christian interpretation of God and I don't accept any other Gods as being "supernatural" beings, but I do believe that the whole of humanity and nature is interconnected in non mystical ways that I have described before. Mysterious perhaps, but not mystical.

I don't have a problem with those who believe in traditional religions. In fact, I think ithey are mostly beneficial from a spiritual perspective.

Quote:

Emotions underlie how people feel about living. Spirituality is a subjective response to a person's appraisal of that being. We are religious in that spirituality. Our sense of beauty provides us with insights into Nature and the human arts.

(Link near the end of the post)

Quote:

I'm happy for you to express that my God does not exist, and that he is just my imaginary friend.

Well I'm certainly not. Apart from being disrespectful, it's an arrogant position to take. For one thing it assumes that mental processes are inconsequential, and as I've said before, the ability to handle abstract concepts is what makes humanity so special.

For another thing, it's taking the rather childish view that "my perception is better than your perception". (We've had this discussion about mountain top views before.) The scientific method just help us to extend our perception. It doesn't initiate us into some hidden knowledge about reality. It's not neo-gnosticism. It's just an extended use of our senses. The fundamentals are still unknown and probably always will be. Anyone who uses this excuse of science having all the answers is self deluded. It's a cop out. Truth and meaning are obtained by free and responsible inquiry and that's the bottom line.

I've said this before. I don't claim to know the true nature of humanity, life and god. I'm just a man like any other man trying to make sense of my existence.

Hopefully this page should load up quickly for you.
http://religiousnaturalism.info/Tenets_of_Religious_Naturalism.html

I don't hold to any tenets, but I find myself roughly in accord with many of these points, particularly this:

Quote:

We do not impose our philosophy on others; rather we share its beauty with those who wish to experience it. We exchange our own unique individual interpretations of our being to help enrich others.

We advance our outlook with purpose, dignity and intellectual integrity. We listen and respect the traditional religious language of others and translate it into our own more naturalistic frames and visualizations.

- and Yadda, I enjoy this dialogue. I think it's useful to understand other points of view without being adversarial. Don't you?

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« Last Edit: Apr 25^th, 2012 at 11:26am by muso »

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #134 - Apr 25^th, 2012 at 9:23am

Yadda wrote on Apr 25^th, 2012 at 12:04am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 24^th, 2012 at 8:16am:

nairbe wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2012 at 7:06pm:

Yadda wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2012 at 1:57pm:

muso wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2012 at 10:07am:

[quote author=11292C2C29480 link=1334452618/85#85 date=1335025644]

[quote]Epilepsy is a case in point. It's interesting the correlation between epilepsy and religion, don't you think?

SATAN wants, and is seeking to attract all of the company he can get.
And imo, he and his agents will do everything that they can to guide the human psyche to his abode.
It is a trap.
SATAN will ensnare the unwary, the foolish.

I hope i misunderstand this as i am angry beyond belief. What kind of sick and ignorant animal would connect Epilepsy to evil. I have an epileptic child and this is a serious neurological disease that is known but still has a long way to go. This type of ignorance is why i have no respect for religion. What do you want an exorcism, maybe some inquisition torture will drive the devil out.

In my experience the ones that go too far and start seeing "demons" everywhere and rebuking them etc are actually suffering from neurological disorder and need treatment.

SOB

Hey, Puss in Boots, aka SOB,

That is correct.

What ?

You are one step away from suggesting that persons who don't agree with your reality [or who don't agree with the reality of 'normal' people ], are suffering from 'neurological disorder'.

And should be detained against their will, institutionalised, and given psychotropic drugs [against their will] to help to 'heal' them.

Hmmm ?

Is that what you are suggesting ?

That is just plain evil.

Hey, SOB,

What about politics ???

If i don't agree with your politics, should i be institutionalised too ???

Lots of people would agree with such a 'political' 'remedy'.

That is the sort of thing what tyrants do, to shut people up, who don't agree with them.

They silence their critics, by [one way or another,] 'removing' them from the debate.i
+++

nairbe.....
Quote:

I hope i misunderstand this as i am angry beyond belief.

Hey nairbe,

Do you feel one of your 'fits' coming on ?

Better take your medication then !!

Or better still, see SOB, and he/she, will help, by having you committed to an institution.

OR, would you just feel so much better if your hands were grasped tightly around my neck ???

If so, then you are the one who needs help.

You seem to have read a lot into my 1 sentence there.

If the shoe fits . . . . .

Well. This is a surprise. I really didnt think you were one who actually sees demons. Mainly I assumed you werent since you managed to get onto a computer and into a forum. Guess I was wrong.

No I am not suggesting that someone not agreeing with my reality are suffering from a neurological disorder. I would only do that in jest. I am suggesting that the ppl that see demons and think they are everywhere are suffering from a neurological disorder. It can be fixed.

I also never said anything about taking such ppl against their will. In fact I never mentioned how they should get help should they need it. However - to clear up your concerns I dont think anyone should be taken against their will for anything unless they are a danger to the ppl around them. Okay? If you do need help then you should go to a qualified psychiatrist (I dont think a psychologist could help you but thats my opinion).

Haha @ politics. you obviously dont read the political threads because I have been speaking out against censorship.

Why are you so afraid of "medication"? Have ppl tried to get you to take it?

SOB

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I'm a
Moron!

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Poll
Question: Do you believe in a god?
Yes 1 (12.5%) No 6 (75.0%) Unknown 0 (0.0%) Yes and my religion has the right one 1 (12.5%) Total votes: 8 « Created by: Sir Spot of Borg on: Apr 23^rd, 2012 at 10:06am »