Australian Politics Forum - Why Should I Believe?

bludger

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #135 - May 3^rd, 2012 at 9:00am

Belief means accepting a proposition without a shred of proof. The opposite word is knowing.
Religion is a private club and no one has to be a member.
It is fear of dying that drives religion, the thought of eternal lying in darkness in a claustrophobic state, non -seeing , non -hearing frightens people. It is not like that at all. It is like being under anaesthetic
. When your dead you never know you have been born.
And what's hard about that?
Imagine being alive in heaven . No eyes no nose no ears nothing to eat, these are all functions of an earthly body to keep it alive just like the rest of the animals.
So what you would basically be is a small electrical charge flitting through space. Bit boring. So don't worry everything will be o.k.

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Why Should I Believe? Reply #136 - May 3^rd, 2012 at 9:18am bludger wrote on May 3^rd, 2012 at 9:00am: Belief means accepting a proposition without a shred of proof. The opposite word is knowing. Belief implies accepting a proposition. Proof doesn't come into it. Belief may or not be evidence based. The opposite word is disbelief.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #137 - May 3^rd, 2012 at 9:32am

muso wrote on May 3^rd, 2012 at 9:18am:

bludger wrote on May 3^rd, 2012 at 9:00am:

Belief means accepting a proposition without a shred of proof. The opposite word is knowing.

Belief implies accepting a proposition. Proof doesn't come into it. Belief may or not be evidence based.

The opposite word is disbelief.

Yes. Belief without the need or the possibility of proof is faith.

The opposite of faith is

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bobbythefap1

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #138 - May 3^rd, 2012 at 10:16am

muso wrote on May 3^rd, 2012 at 9:18am:

bludger wrote on May 3^rd, 2012 at 9:00am:

Belief means accepting a proposition without a shred of proof. The opposite word is knowing.

Belief implies accepting a proposition. Proof doesn't come into it. Belief may or not be evidence based.

The opposite word is disbelief.

Unless of course you are not a five year old

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bobbythefap1

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #139 - May 3^rd, 2012 at 10:17am

Soren wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2012 at 11:53pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2012 at 9:52am:

Philosophy depends on reality.
If there is nothing to answer then it cannot answer it.
When science uncovers what that 'nothing' might be as to the creation of the universe then philosophy will probably do a great job at analysing and interpreting it for people who need more then a spreadsheet.

I agree, this is why I treat theists like crap because this is how they have treated the rest of society for thousands of years.

Stupid as ever.

If you were right, science would have emerged spontaneously in every society and every epoch.

But it didn't.

And even where it did (ancient Greece and 17th century Europe) it was a different kind of science because the respective philosophical outlooks were different. The former was non-experimental, the latter experimental.

Both ancient Greece and 16th century Europe were religious.

What do you consider science?

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muso

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #140 - May 3^rd, 2012 at 10:30am

bobbythefap1 wrote on May 3^rd, 2012 at 10:16am:

muso wrote on May 3^rd, 2012 at 9:18am:

bludger wrote on May 3^rd, 2012 at 9:00am:

Belief means accepting a proposition without a shred of proof. The opposite word is knowing.

Belief implies accepting a proposition. Proof doesn't come into it. Belief may or not be evidence based.

The opposite word is disbelief.

Unless of course you are not a five year old

Proof is very rare in life. For example we walk along pathways, confident that there is no sinking sand on the path. Previous evidence and experience shows that sinking sand on a path is highly unlikely, but it doesn't get to the standard of proof.

The fact that proof is rare is evidenced by the fact that zero risk rarely exists, that entropy increases with time. That's where the science of risk management comes in. It's based on the intrinsic uncertainty of reality.

If everything fitted together (as in the world of a 5 year old) like so many pieces of lego that fit together neatly, then insurance companies would no longer be required.

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bobbythefap1

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #141 - May 3^rd, 2012 at 10:36am

Quote:

Proof is very rare in life. For example we walk along pathways, confident that there is no sinking sand on the path. Previous evidence and experience shows that sinking sand on a path is highly unlikely, but it doesn't get to the standard of proof.

Right but no one walks around preaching that 'thy path contain no sinking sand, this is a fact'. Do they?

Quote:

The fact that proof is rare is evidenced by the fact that zero risk rarely exists, that entropy increases with time. That's where the science of risk management comes in. It's based on the intrinsic uncertainty of reality.

The fact of proof is not rare and risk has nothing to do with it, fact is theory risk is practical.
Given the correct method, which science can create risk can be eliminated completely.

Quote:

If everything fitted together (as in the world of a 5 year old) like so many pieces of lego that fit together neatly, then insurance companies would no longer be required.

If we didn't live under a scam financial system then insurance would no longer be required.

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muso

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #142 - May 3^rd, 2012 at 4:17pm

bobbythefap1 wrote on May 3^rd, 2012 at 10:36am:

Quote:

Proof is very rare in life. For example we walk along pathways, confident that there is no sinking sand on the path. Previous evidence and experience shows that sinking sand on a path is highly unlikely, but it doesn't get to the standard of proof.

Right but no one walks around preaching that 'thy path contain no sinking sand, this is a fact'. Do they?

I was talking about proof in general. I think you will have gathered by now that I don't follow any traditional revelatory religions. There is no such thing as scientific proof. You can certainly have overwhelming evidence in favour of a hypothesis, but it falls short of proof. In mathematics (and lego building), you can have proof. I'm just saying that life is full of uncertainties.

Quote:

Quote:

The fact that proof is rare is evidenced by the fact that zero risk rarely exists, that entropy increases with time. That's where the science of risk management comes in. It's based on the intrinsic uncertainty of reality.

The fact of proof is not rare and risk has nothing to do with it, fact is theory risk is practical.
Given the correct method, which science can create risk can be eliminated completely.

In some cases, specific risks can be eliminated. In most cases, it's always a question of cost justification. We pay the price of residual risk for our lifestyle.

Quote:

Quote:

If everything fitted together (as in the world of a 5 year old) like so many pieces of lego that fit together neatly, then insurance companies would no longer be required.

If we didn't live under a scam financial system then insurance would no longer be required.

I think you're very naive. You remind me of myself 30 years ago. A financial system is necessary because of the nature of humanity. The spectacular failure of Marxism showed that without these controls, the greedy indolent scum of humanity will float to the top absorbing all the good things from society in their rise, and leaving society drained and bankrupt. When choosing between a meritocracy and an idiocracy, the former wins hands down.

If you go around changing things too much, all kinds of unwanted consequences arise.

However, I share your implied contempt of Insurance companies who promise the world and laugh in your face when the chips are down.

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« Last Edit: May 3^rd, 2012 at 4:27pm by muso »

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bobbythefap1

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #143 - May 3^rd, 2012 at 4:33pm

Quote:

I was talking about proof in general. I think you will have gathered by now that I don't follow any traditional revelatory religions. There is no such thing as scientific proof. You can certainly have overwhelming evidence in favour of a hypothesis, but it falls short of proof. In mathematics (and lego building), you can have proof. I'm just saying that life is full of uncertainties.

So how does anyone of this assuming you are correct make lying to people like they do ok? Wether you follow it or not you are trying to justify a disgusting thing.
Quote:

In some cases, specific risks can be eliminated. In most cases, it's always a question of cost justification. We pay the price of residual risk for our lifestyle.

Risk can be eliminated completely given the correct methods, which are achievable.
Quote:

I think you're very naive. You remind me of myself 30 years ago. A financial system is necessary because of the nature of humanity. The spectacular failure of Marxism showed that without these controls, the greedy indolent scum of humanity will float to the top absorbing all the good things from society in their rise, and leaving society drained and bankrupt. When choosing between a meritocracy and an idiocracy, the former wins hands down.

If you go around changing things too much, all kinds of unwanted consequences arise.

However, I share your implied contempt of Insurance companies who promise the world and laugh in your face when the chips are down.

Yes I must be naive to question what most people do not have the balls to even utter the mere existence of.
When did I say that a financial system is not necessary?
What is not necessary is a financial system governed by a small few and forced on the majority. You cannot justify that in any way.
What are you talking about you idiot? If you haven't noticed the "greedy indolent scum of humanity" floated to the top of our system a few centuries ago and haven't moved since.

Stop trying to justify things you do not understand.
You always do this.
Ignore 99% of the picture or focus on one tiny part the size of a mouse to justify something as big as the universe.

You are saying that we should not resist dictators? What right do they have to dictate on us?

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« Last Edit: May 3^rd, 2012 at 4:38pm by bobbythefap1 »

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Yadda

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #144 - May 3^rd, 2012 at 11:09pm

muso wrote on Apr 25^th, 2012 at 7:52am:

- and Yadda, I enjoy this dialogue. I think it's useful to understand other points of view without being adversarial. Don't you?

Yes, i enjoy engaging with people who force me to stretch my perceptions.

But i am perhaps too adversarial in my stance in this forum at times [...for many] ?

But, that is not something that i am inclined to apologise for. Sad

[I have to [try to] go with my heart.]

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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muso

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #145 - May 4^th, 2012 at 9:53am

bobbythefap1 wrote on May 3^rd, 2012 at 4:33pm:

When did I say that a financial system is not necessary?
What is not necessary is a financial system governed by a small few and forced on the majority. You cannot justify that in any way.
What are you talking about you idiot? If you haven't noticed the "greedy indolent scum of humanity" floated to the top of our system a few centuries ago and haven't moved since.

Stop trying to justify things you do not understand.
You always do this.
Ignore 99% of the picture or focus on one tiny part the size of a mouse to justify something as big as the universe.

You are saying that we should not resist dictators? What right do they have to dictate on us?

Just tell me this. Are you a Marxist? I hate to harbour misconceptions, but you certainly walk and quack like one.

Quote:

So how does anyone of this assuming you are correct make lying to people like they do ok? Wether you follow it or not you are trying to justify a disgusting thing.

You are very selective in your hatred of religion. You seem to support Islam while hating Christianity.

I don't mind either one, but I probably prefer Hindu for the food, and that's as good a reason as any. I have friends of all backgrounds and religions whom I value very much. My position is that of tolerance. Generally, tolerance within religions is a function of education level. I have a very good friend who works at the University of Bamako in Mali with whom I'd often discuss the common factors within religions. He happens to be Muslim, and he was one of the least prejudiced and most intelligent people I have known. Another good friend is a Catholic theologian based in Austria. He is almost as tolerant and intelligent.

You are the one who picks flaws with religious people. They are just people like anybody else, and everybody has flaws. If you pause for an introspective look at yourself, you might even see some flaws too. Self-love? Vanity?

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« Last Edit: May 4^th, 2012 at 10:09am by muso »

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bobbythefap1

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #146 - May 4^th, 2012 at 10:39am

Quote:

Just tell me this. Are you a Marxist? I hate to harbour misconceptions, but you certainly walk and quack like one.

I don't think I really have a label but I take parts from many different social philosophies. Marxism has some great ideas and in principle they would create a much better world then we see today, but that is principle.

Quote:

You are very selective in your hatred of religion. You seem to support Islam while hating Christianity.

I don't support any religion at all I just hate hypocrites.
Its just like terrorists, I don't support terrorists I just get pissed off when people applaud one terrorist and criticize another for doing exactly the same thing.

Quote:

I don't mind either one, but I probably prefer Hindu for the food, and that's as good a reason as any. I have friends of all backgrounds and religions whom I value very much. My position is that of tolerance. Generally, tolerance within religions is a function of education level. I have a very good friend who works at the University of Bamako in Mali with whom I'd often discuss the common factors within religions. He happens to be Muslim, and he was one of the least prejudiced and most intelligent people I have known. Another good friend is a Catholic theologian based in Austria. He is almost as tolerant and intelligent.

I agree many of the eastern religions are what I would call legitimate religions where as western ones are more of just clever manipulation.
We live in an intolerant society, once again the hypocrite thing comes in. No one has the balls to speak out about religion even tho it is 100x worse then the things they often complain about.
The more someone becomes properly educated the less they believe in religion, so it would go to show that religion itself breeds intolerance which I think is fairly obvious.

Quote:

You are the one who picks flaws with religious people. They are just people like anybody else, and everybody has flaws. If you pause for an introspective look at yourself, you might even see some flaws too. Self-love? Vanity?

Religion is a system and like all systems it needs to be scrutinized. For the most case religion avoids this and its followers are non compliant to reason so who is left to do that important stuff?
I have nothing against the people themselves, I understand that it is a social problem removed from the individual level.

Of course I have flaws but I do not declare myself to be all knowing or whatever do I.
I do not love myself and the vanity you are seeing is probably just frustration.
Do you really think I would act the way I do if other people were actually able to accept reality and discuss things openly etc..

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Johnsmith

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #147 - May 4^th, 2012 at 10:45am

muso wrote on May 3^rd, 2012 at 10:30am:

bobbythefap1 wrote on May 3^rd, 2012 at 10:16am:

muso wrote on May 3^rd, 2012 at 9:18am:

bludger wrote on May 3^rd, 2012 at 9:00am:

Belief means accepting a proposition without a shred of proof. The opposite word is knowing.

Belief implies accepting a proposition. Proof doesn't come into it. Belief may or not be evidence based.

The opposite word is disbelief.

Unless of course you are not a five year old

Proof is very rare in life. For example we walk along pathways, confident that there is no sinking sand on the path. Previous evidence and experience shows that sinking sand on a path is highly unlikely, but it doesn't get to the standard of proof.

The fact that proof is rare is evidenced by the fact that zero risk rarely exists, that entropy increases with time. That's where the science of risk management comes in. It's based on the intrinsic uncertainty of reality.

If everything fitted together (as in the world of a 5 year old) like so many pieces of lego that fit together neatly, then insurance companies would no longer be required.

http://mocoloco.com/art/upload/2010/06/moritz_lego_world_cup.jpg

Disagree.... things can be proven , it is the fact that things change that creates an element of uncertainty , but that doesn't negate the proof of the original item. I can prove to you, without a shodow of a doubt, that a whack over the head with a brick will hurt .... just stand still long enough and I'll come and prove it. Now, should you move, I will most likely miss, that is where risk mangement comes into it, that doesn't mean that my original theory that a brick over the head will hurt can't be proven.

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When politicians offer you something for nothing, or something that sounds too good to be true, it's always worth taking a careful second look.
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muso

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #148 - May 4^th, 2012 at 10:53am

Johnsmith wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 10:45am:

Disagree.... things can be proven , it is the fact that things change that creates an element of uncertainty , but that doesn't negate the proof of the original item. I can prove to you, without a shodow of a doubt, that a whack over the head with a brick will hurt .... just stand still long enough and I'll come and prove it. Now, should you move, I will most likely miss, that is where risk mangement comes into it, that doesn't mean that my original theory that a brick over the head will hurt can't be proven.

Agree 100%. Remove time from the equation and there is no risk. Roll Eyes

- and if you remove the fact that things change (time), then the person you thwhack over the head is dead and will feel no pain. Grin

.....damn.

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muso

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #149 - May 4^th, 2012 at 11:04am

bobbythefap1 wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 10:39am:

We live in an intolerant society, once again the hypocrite thing comes in. No one has the balls to speak out about religion even tho it is 100x worse then the things they often complain about.
The more someone becomes properly educated the less they believe in religion, so it would go to show that religion itself breeds intolerance which I think is fairly obvious.

I thought it was the flavour of the month to criticise organised religion actually.

On your last sentence - not necessarily.

We actually have some common ground. I hate hypocrites too, but I also tend to dig a log deeper than the average blogosphere article too.

You can usually tell. They use highly emotive language, and that's a dead giveaway. It's a cue that you need to research it further, because they are using the emotive language as a cover for advocacy supported by poor research. Emotive language usually (but not always) means that there is a vested interest at stake, and it takes a bit of burrowing usually to find out who's behind it.

Of course advocacy is not always founded on misconceptions, but it's a good rule of thumb.

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Question: Do you believe in a god?
Yes 1 (12.5%) No 6 (75.0%) Unknown 0 (0.0%) Yes and my religion has the right one 1 (12.5%) Total votes: 8 « Created by: Sir Spot of Borg on: Apr 23^rd, 2012 at 10:06am »