Australian Politics Forum - Why Should I Believe?

nairbe

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #15 - Apr 15^th, 2012 at 12:58pm

Yadda wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 12:37pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 12:34pm:

So far I see no reason to believe anything. "Goodness" is universal as is "badness". Not that i would believe something just because i decided to. Belief doesnt really happen that way despite what some ppl claim.

SOB

Then go your way.

Walk your own path.

OH Yadda, that really is the weakest capitulation i have seen.

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"Faced with what is right, to leave it undone shows a lack of courage."
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nairbe

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #16 - Apr 15^th, 2012 at 12:59pm

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 11:16am:

I am a non-believer. I don't consider verses from any fiction book to be "evidence" of any higher power. Is there any other reason I should "believe" in religion? Other than some book?

SOB

Don't believe, question. You want clear reasoning and logic as to why you should believe. I found when i started asking questions is when i was not welcome anymore.

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"Faced with what is right, to leave it undone shows a lack of courage."
Confucius

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Yadda

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #17 - Apr 15^th, 2012 at 1:03pm

bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 12:45pm:

Yadda wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 12:31pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 12:23pm:

Yadda wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 12:22pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 12:11pm:

Quote:

"Goodness, is its own reward."

If this is true, why not just be good?

Why do you need to do it in the name of a book or god or whatever else?

That is acceptable to [my] God.

Do you do it because you #1, fear god and hell, or because you #2, want to please him and get into heaven?

#1, No.

#2, No. [.....well, maybe a little Wink

]

But mostly because i have come to the knowledge that.....

"Goodness, is its own reward."

"Be good, for goodness sake."

Those who love God, know that those things are true, and worthy, and that seeking goodness, is seeking to please God.

If we achieve goodness in our lives, we do please God.

So if goodness is its own reward why does your god use heaven and hell to make people be good?

My God doesn't 'use' heaven and hell to 'make people' 'be good'.

The whole point, is that we, each of us, chooses how to behave here, IN THIS LIFE.

AND, we can make good choices, OR, we can make poor choices.

God does not compel us, how to choose.

We choose.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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bobbythefap1

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #18 - Apr 15^th, 2012 at 1:06pm

Quote:

My God doesn't 'use' heaven and hell to make people be good.

The whole point, is that we all choose who to behave here, IN THIS LIFE.

AND, we can make good choices, OR, we can make poor choices.

God does not compel us, how to choose.

We choose.

So we have a choice,
but if we dont do what he says we have to endure horrible torture for an eternity no matter if your a women or child.

Does that really sound like much of a choice?

I mean if I had a gun to your head and said hand over your money or I will shoot you, thats not much of a choice is it.

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Why Should I Believe? Reply #19 - Apr 15^th, 2012 at 2:01pm bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 12:11pm: Quote: "Goodness, is its own reward." If this is true, why not just be good? Why do you need to do it in the name of a book or god or whatever else? If goodness is its own reward, then there is no need for god.
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Yadda

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #20 - Apr 15^th, 2012 at 3:03pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 2:01pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 12:11pm:

Quote:

"Goodness, is its own reward."

If this is true, why not just be good?
Why do you need to do it in the name of a book or god or whatever else?

If goodness is its own reward,

then there is no need for god

.

NoN,

You are mistaken.

But you go ahead and believe that, if it pleases you to do so.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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nairbe

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #21 - Apr 15^th, 2012 at 3:20pm

Yadda wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 3:03pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 2:01pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 12:11pm:

Quote:

"Goodness, is its own reward."

If this is true, why not just be good?
Why do you need to do it in the name of a book or god or whatever else?

If goodness is its own reward,

then there is no need for god

.

NoN,

You are mistaken.

But you go ahead and believe that, if it pleases you to do so.

But Yadda you still miss the point. What use is a god that rules by threat. BE GOOD OR BURN IN THE ETERNAL HELL FIRE. Ihave heard these words to many times and now that this idea is challenged within the community the church simply changes it's story.

So why should we believe Yadda?

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"Faced with what is right, to leave it undone shows a lack of courage."
Confucius

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Yadda

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #22 - Apr 15^th, 2012 at 3:36pm

nairbe wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 3:20pm:

Yadda wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 3:03pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 2:01pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 12:11pm:

Quote:

"Goodness, is its own reward."

If this is true, why not just be good?
Why do you need to do it in the name of a book or god or whatever else?

If goodness is its own reward,

then there is no need for god

.

NoN,

You are mistaken.

But you go ahead and believe that, if it pleases you to do so.

But Yadda you still miss the point. What use is a god that rules by threat. BE GOOD OR BURN IN THE ETERNAL HELL FIRE. Ihave heard these words to many times and now that this idea is challenged within the community the church simply changes it's story.

So why should we believe Yadda?

Yadda said.....
Quote:

......how can you 'force' a foolish child, to learn wisdom ???

You can't.

The child with either seek out wisdom, because it see's some value in wisdom, OR, the child will take the path of the world.

nairbe,

Go your own way.

Make your own choices.

Its OK.

You know that it is.

There will not be any accounting, for our poor choices.

You know that this is correct, don't you ?

Psalms 14:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Sir Spot of Borg Gold Member Offline WE ARE BORG Posts: 26513 Australia	Re: Why Should I Believe? Reply #23 - Apr 15^th, 2012 at 3:47pm IMO we need a different xtian in this thread. Or maybe a muslim I dunno. Some evangelical that will answer our questions. SOB
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bobbythefap1 Gold Member Offline Posts: 7026 Listen now to the rain	Re: Why Should I Believe? Reply #24 - Apr 15^th, 2012 at 3:50pm Yadda answer my last post? Also, If god is needed to be good, is the church or similar religious organisations?
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #25 - Apr 15^th, 2012 at 5:01pm

Yadda wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 3:03pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 2:01pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 12:11pm:

Quote:

"Goodness, is its own reward."

If this is true, why not just be good?
Why do you need to do it in the name of a book or god or whatever else?

If goodness is its own reward,

then there is no need for god

.

NoN,

You are mistaken.

But you go ahead and believe that, if it pleases you to do so.

How am I wrong if I accept your proposition that goodness is its own reward?

Can you imagine a god that takes no interest in your life nor offers reward or paradise for good deeds done or a good life led?

If not then your faith is likely only a selfish quid pro quo... Worship for reward... Or an escape from existential angst.

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Conviction is the art of being certain

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Soren

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #26 - Apr 15^th, 2012 at 9:30pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 2:01pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 12:11pm:

Quote:

"Goodness, is its own reward."

If this is true, why not just be good?
Why do you need to do it in the name of a book or god or whatever else?

If goodness is its own reward, then there is no need for god.

How have we learned about the 'good'? In every society and every history, it is some sort of ancestral, revelatory gift.

On the other hand, when we make up what's good in each generation (coz we wants to be 'relevant'), without reference to millennial wisdom, as it were, we introduce gay adoption and all the other crazy stuff dreamt up in the last 5 minutes under the rubric of 'hey, kids. let's be, like, progressive!!, Yay!!' (ie going downhill)

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #27 - Apr 15^th, 2012 at 11:36pm

Soren wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 9:30pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 2:01pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 12:11pm:

Quote:

"Goodness, is its own reward."

If this is true, why not just be good?
Why do you need to do it in the name of a book or god or whatever else?

If goodness is its own reward, then there is no need for god.

How have we learned about the 'good'? In every society and every history, it is some sort of ancestral, revelatory gift.

On the other hand, when we make up what's good in each generation (coz we wants to be 'relevant'), without reference to millennial wisdom, as it were, we introduce gay adoption and all the other crazy stuff dreamt up in the last 5 minutes under the rubric of 'hey, kids. let's be, like, progressive!!, Yay!!' (ie going downhill)

(Like scripture reading in the Whitehouse... To evoke the favour of Christ?... Or Mars - the crypto-protagonist of the Apocalypse.)

Buddhism demonstrates that god is superfluous to the human intuition of goodness.

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« Last Edit: Apr 15^th, 2012 at 11:41pm by NorthOfNorth »

Conviction is the art of being certain

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #28 - Apr 16^th, 2012 at 9:14am

Soren wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 9:30pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 2:01pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 12:11pm:

Quote:

"Goodness, is its own reward."

If this is true, why not just be good?
Why do you need to do it in the name of a book or god or whatever else?

If goodness is its own reward, then there is no need for god.

How have we learned about the 'good'? In every society and every history, it is some sort of ancestral, revelatory gift.

On the other hand, when we make up what's good in each generation (coz we wants to be 'relevant'), without reference to millennial wisdom, as it were, we introduce gay adoption and all the other crazy stuff dreamt up in the last 5 minutes under the rubric of 'hey, kids. let's be, like, progressive!!, Yay!!' (ie going downhill)

That doesnt make any sense @ all.

SOB

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Whaaaaaah!
I'm a
Moron!

- edited by some unethical admin - you think its funny? - its a slippery slope

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muso

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #29 - Apr 16^th, 2012 at 10:41pm

Soren wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 9:30pm:

How have we learned about the 'good'? In every society and every history, it is some sort of ancestral, revelatory gift.

On the other hand, when we make up what's good in each generation (coz we wants to be 'relevant'), without reference to millennial wisdom, as it were, we introduce gay adoption and all the other crazy stuff dreamt up in the last 5 minutes under the rubric of 'hey, kids. let's be, like, progressive!!, Yay!!' (ie going downhill)

Going downhill is being stuck in the Medieval Period. Can you honestly put your hand on your heart and say that Christianity is absolute, in as much that it has not changed in its mainstream interpretation/ implementation since the first Century AD?

The status quo of today is not the same status quo of 50 years ago or 150 years ago. The status quo is evanescent. Human beings made the status quo, and human beings will continue to change it.

In that most Christian of countries, the USA, marriage of 12 year old girls to 50 year old men was common about 150 years ago. (and you talk about the crazy stuff of today) Clearly this fundamental standard of decency is not the rock of ages that you claim.

The status quo is dynamic. It will change as it has always done through the forces of an ever changing society- and religion will change with it as it has always done - or it will subliminate into irrelevance.

The only thing that has not changed is tired old men like Cicero who bleat their disapproval of the tempores and mores throughout the centuries.

MInd you, he did come up with some gems.

Quidem concessum est rhetoribus ementiri in historiis ut aliquid dicere possint argutius.

You can Google that one.

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« Last Edit: Apr 16^th, 2012 at 10:54pm by muso »

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Poll
Question: Do you believe in a god?
Yes 1 (12.5%) No 6 (75.0%) Unknown 0 (0.0%) Yes and my religion has the right one 1 (12.5%) Total votes: 8 « Created by: Sir Spot of Borg on: Apr 23^rd, 2012 at 10:06am »