oscarmitre wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 10:49pm:


Why is it a shame? I know about it now dont i? Cant say I have benefited from the knowledge except I have learned to see them coming when they start on the hellfire crap I get out of the way. @ least i know they cant help it they were brainwashed from birth.

SOB

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 5:01pm:



Do you think that i am trying to get to 'heaven' ?

Am i trying to avoid 'hell' ?

Should my life and all of my [life] choices be predicated upon achieving the 1st and avoiding the 2nd ???

Is that what being a believer, or a 'Christian', is about ???

Do ya think ?         


Again, if you think so, then, imo....

Quote:





IMO, 'heaven' isn't so much a reward, and 'hell' isn't so much a punishment.

Rather, i look upon God as a fisherman, God is an olive farmer, God is a wheat farmer, etc.

One day, God is going to 'take in' his harvest.

And in the harvest process, God is going to discard the 'rubbish'.




Matthew 13:47
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48  Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.



This same basic message to men, is contained in the OT....


Isaiah 5:1
Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:
2  And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.
3  And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.
4  What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
5  And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
6  And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.
7  For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.


Ezekiel 15:1
And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2  Son of man, What is the vine tree more than any tree, or than a branch which is among the trees of the forest?
3  Shall wood be taken thereof to do any work? or will men take a pin of it to hang any vessel thereon?
4  Behold, it is cast into the fire for fuel; the fire devoureth both the ends of it, and the midst of it is burned. Is it meet for any work?
5  Behold, when it was whole, it was meet for no work: how much less shall it be meet yet for any work, when the fire hath devoured it, and it is burned?
6  Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; As the vine tree among the trees of the forest, which I have given to the fire for fuel, so will I give the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
7  And I will set my face against them; they shall go out from one fire, and another fire shall devour them; and ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I set my face against them.
8  And I will make the land desolate, because they have committed a trespass, saith the Lord GOD.


i.e.
Matthew 7:19
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.



God [our creator] is an investor, we [all of mankind] are his 'care', and [in the end] those souls who are judged to be worthless [to God!] will be discarded.

Is God unjust, in so doing ?

And do you think that i [or any believer!] can i trick God, by pretending to be, what i think God wants me to be ?

1 Chronicles 28:9
And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.



If God wants me [that is, if God decides that he will redeem me], it will be because God sees something of worth in me.

And not because i have somehow been clever enough to fool God.

That is what i believe.


Acts 10:34
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35  But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.




God offers redemption, as something for us to seek, to attain to.

I believe that my redemption, is available [something to be sought after], AND, that it is a gift from God, to wise 'children'.

Why is spiritual repentance so difficult for men ???

I suspect, because so many of us believe that we have so much to lose, in the world.

That is the choice, each of us must make.



Jeremiah 17:14
Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for thou art my praise.

Revelation 21:7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


+++


My position is this;

I firmly believe that God is wise, and above all, i know that he is just.

Therefore;
....When my life is over, whether i am discarded, or redeemed, i accept that my 'reward' [or my judgement] will be just.

i.e.
Hey!, its like if i did a crime, and if i was brought up on charges before a court, and the judge, then judges me according to the evidence, and judges me righteously, then i will be happy [or satisfied] with his judgement.

Why?

Because [i hope that] i am a person who loves righteousness.




I'm a 'black and white' kind of person.

And all of my life being a 'black and white' kind of person has caused me grief in this world.

But hey!, i can wear it.

I have so far!    

If its bringing you grief why not change and let a little grey in?

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 18^th, 2012 at 9:49am:



Two reasons come immediately to mind......

I am happy, and, i am not confused about life.




A black and white view of this world, is good.

Matthew 16:6
Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
7  And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread.
.....
11  How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
12  Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.



+++




I trust God.

I trust God, because i know something of him.

I am not saying that i have a perfect knowledge of God.

Because i don't.

But i do know something of his nature.

And knowing that, i trust God.



[If you want to know 'something' about the God that i know, read the Psalms.]

Yadda wrote on Apr 18^th, 2012 at 12:24am:

All this only confirms that your worship is conditional... God must be just... in your opinion he is an investor charged with looking after mankind and who will 'discard' the unworthy and (no doubt) reward the worthy. He must be 'wise'... And on we go... A quid pro quo... (I gave to you, now you give to me)... Worship for reward.

I think that Atheists in Australia should be tolerant towards people of all religions. Times have changed in the last 50 years. Christianity doesn't represent the establishment nowadays, and most people who identify as "Catholics" or "Anglicans" are basically culturally Christian Atheists, for want of a better word. They follow Christian cultural norms but  the concept of God has no real meaning in their lives and this will regress further as time goes on. I wonder how much Christianity has fallen by in the last census. The results should be out soon.

There will come a time when it's no longer necessary to identify as an Atheist. What's the point of having a mouse trap if you never get mice?

Christians had their moments throughout history (as did every other group of human beings), but  it represents a tradition that we should try not to  lose.

Evangelicals can be fun. They have so much enthusiasm.

Those who would ban religion should be careful of what they wish for. What would be next?

Anyway, since we're into Atheist quotes,

"If God exists, he should be ashamed of himself"

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 19^th, 2012 at 9:42am:


IMHO we shouldn't concentrate on the mere concept of existence (of gods). For one thing, (1) almost everybody agrees that it's impossible to have the knowledge, so why be concerned with the issue of divine existence when even (eg) Christians don't have the knowledge (they rely on faith). Why waste time being concerned about such issues?  What is it actually going to achieve if we can't ever know?  For another thing (2) existence alone doesn't actually get any consequences. You need to have existence plus consequences/ interactions. The mere fact that a particular pebble on a beach exists, is inconsequential on its own. If somebody throws that pebble at us, then we have interactive consequences, beneficial or otherwise. Anything that exists must be either dangerous, important, pleasurable or interesting (DIPI) to us to have any significance for us.

So, any reasons for personal faith and belief must also (or primarily?) include potentially beneficial (or DIPI)  reasons for the 'believer' and for society. The only way we can advance our state of personal development or the state of civilisation is by means of abstract concepts that don't actually exist (yet). If you want to realise a technopolis, first you need to imagine it before you actually start to play in the sandpit.  If you want to realise a divinity, you'll also need a business plan. Some day, check off the requirements of a business plan against the contents of the Bible.  The best way to communicate these imaginary plans is by using the written word, and that's true for all imaginary mental concepts, including our great Stock Market (blessed be its name).

Handling abstract concepts is what makes humanity powerful. ( or - translating into theist language: "God created man in his own image")

So, getting back to  "Do they have any reason to believe? ", maybe that reason is one of perceived or actual personal security/ wellbeing/ richness.

I know somebody who thinks he's happy (considers himself to be happy), and I know another person who is actually happy. What's the difference between the two?

Yadda will like this one:

If a person is perpetually sad, how can he believe in happiness? He might say that happiness is just an imaginary concept that doesn't actually exist, or "happy people just believe in fairy tales"