Australian Politics Forum - Why Should I Believe?

Yadda

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #45 - Apr 19^th, 2012 at 11:44pm

muso wrote on Apr 19^th, 2012 at 10:06am:

Handling abstract concepts is what makes humanity powerful. ( or - translating into theist language: "God created man in his own image")

Exactly so.

Like making [or imagining] choices we can make, and imagining what may be the ['real world'] consequences from those [our] choices.

And imo, it is not the 'real world' that is 'important' [...or rather, put another way, the 'real world', imo, does not deserve the importance which we humans give to it. but i understand why humans do give the world that importance. it is because the world is clearly apparent.].

And though our choices can change the world around us, our choices will also change and re-form us.

And when i use the term 'us', i mean our choices re-form what we essentially are [apart from our perception of who we are; e.g. our body, and our worldly possessions, and our status].

Life is a wonderful game, imo.

So many choices, and so many opportunities, TO BE.

But to 'be' what ??? Wink

muso wrote on Apr 19^th, 2012 at 10:06am:

So, getting back to "Do they have any reason to believe? ", maybe that reason is one of perceived or actual personal security/ wellbeing/ richness.

I know somebody who thinks he's happy (considers himself to be happy), and I know another person who is actually happy. What's the difference between the two?

Yadda will like this one:

If a person is perpetually sad, how can he believe in happiness? He might say that happiness is just an imaginary concept that doesn't actually exist, or "happy people just believe in fairy tales"

muso,

Isn't [physiological] happiness only some particular synapses in my brain being electrically stimulated ???

And if i just wanted to be happy, couldn't i just take 'recreation' drugs to activate those particular synapses ?

Hmmm ?

And, by the way, many people who can't handle 'reality', do choose to take 'happy pills'.

And how does that work out for them ???

I don't do that [........i don't take 'recreation' drugs, to 'get happy'].

Do you want to know how i get happy ?

I get happy >> by meditating << upon possibilities. Roll Eyes

.....and [most of the time] the world passes me by [....and all of its cares too].

Quote:

"Handling abstract concepts is what makes humanity powerful."

Who said that ? Grin

muso,

Who is handling reality better ???

Is it those ppl who choose to take 'happy pills' ?

Or is it someone like Yadda, who chooses to meditate >> UPON << reality ? Cheesy

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #46 - Apr 19^th, 2012 at 11:59pm

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 19^th, 2012 at 12:35pm:

Yeah I agree with most of that but

#1, I think some religious ppl are religious because they are afraid of not being religious.

#2, Or they arent really and want to be in the social group.

SOB

Don't look at me, when you make those statements. Grin

But i do agree, and believe that for many 'believers', they 'embrace' their religion because of the social 'experience' that they derive, and because of the feeling of a social 'belonging' that being a member of that social group offers to them.

But imo, such people are really missing the underlying need which they need to express, as a religious person [at least as a REAL Christian or as a REAL Jew].

To KNOW their God.

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Matthew 22:36
Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #47 - Apr 20^th, 2012 at 12:58am

muso wrote on Apr 19^th, 2012 at 8:57am:

I think that Atheists in Australia should be tolerant towards people of all religions. Times have changed in the last 50 years.

Christianity doesn't represent the establishment nowadays, and most people who identify as "Catholics" or "Anglicans" are basically culturally Christian Atheists, for want of a better word.

I agree with your assessment.

muso wrote on Apr 19^th, 2012 at 8:57am:

They follow Christian cultural norms but the concept of God has no real meaning in their lives....

Again, i agree.

Christians, real Christians, imo, are those who are searching for an understanding of the concept of God, [and regularly reading their bibles, is one way real Christians demonstrate that they are searching for an understanding of what 'God' is, imo].

And my opinion is that the majority of 'cultural Christians' [even those 'Christians' who attend church] are 'careless' in their faith.

Jesus denounced the 'official church' [the Jewish religion] of his day.

Why so ?

Matthew 20:25
But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

Popes???

'Papa'?

"....And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."
"...But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."
Matthew 23:1-13

Q.
If Jesus was the Jewish messiah, why didn't the religious Jews in Jesus time recognise Jesus, or at least acknowledge his Godly power, in his raising the dead, and healing the sick ?

Luke 24:25
Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Psalms 119:2
Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.

"The Bible will keep you from sin, or sin will keep you from the Bible."

Dwight L. Moody (American Evangelist, 1837-1899)

muso wrote on Apr 19^th, 2012 at 8:57am:

Those who would ban religion should be careful of what they wish for. What would be next?

Anyway, since we're into Atheist quotes,

"If God exists, he should be ashamed of himself"

This is the age we live in, muso.

Men have no respect, or fear, of God.

And why should they.

God doesn't exist [.....they can't see him!].

Where there is no shame before men, there's no fear of God.
Yiddish proverb

Freedom, means not having to lie.
'THE WORLD AT WAR' TV PROGRAM
(comm. Freedom means having no fear for our thoughts, or our actions. Only beings, with perfect thoughts and perfect actions possess freedom - GODS. Yet, humans aspire to freedom!).

muso,

Atheists don't want to ban 'religion'.

They want to ban all remembrance of God.

Because they want, they WORSHIP, 'lawlessness'.

Is that what you want too, muso ?

Psalms 2:1
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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muso

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #48 - Apr 20^th, 2012 at 7:03am

Yadda wrote on Apr 19^th, 2012 at 11:44pm:

muso wrote on Apr 19^th, 2012 at 10:06am:

So, getting back to "Do they have any reason to believe? ", maybe that reason is one of perceived or actual personal security/ wellbeing/ richness.

I know somebody who thinks he's happy (considers himself to be happy), and I know another person who is actually happy. What's the difference between the two?

Yadda will like this one:

If a person is perpetually sad, how can he believe in happiness? He might say that happiness is just an imaginary concept that doesn't actually exist, or "happy people just believe in fairy tales"

muso,

Isn't [physiological] happiness only some particular synapses in my brain being electrically stimulated ???

And if i just wanted to be happy, couldn't i just take 'recreation' drugs to activate those particular synapses ?

Hmmm ?

And, by the way, many people who can't handle 'reality', do choose to take 'happy pills'.

And how does that work out for them ???

I don't do that [........i don't take 'recreation' drugs, to 'get happy'].

Do you want to know how i get happy ?

I get happy >> by meditating << upon possibilities. Roll Eyes

.....and [most of the time] the world passes me by [....and all of its cares too].

muso,

Who is handling reality better ???

Is it those ppl who choose to take 'happy pills' ?

Or is it someone like Yadda, who chooses to meditate >> UPON << reality ? Cheesy

I have never taken happy pills myself. I don't drink and I'm "boringly" monogamous. I thought you'd appreciate the irony in my statement about sad people not believing that happiness exists. Don't you see the parallel between "militant atheists" and Theists? Didn't you get the "fairy stories" bit?

Highlighted section: So do I. I find these discussions very stimulating.

Happiness is a difficult concept to grasp. As the Scottish poet Robert Burns said (in Tam O' Shanter):
Quote:

But pleasures are like poppies spread,
You sieze the flower, its bloom is shed;
Or like the snow falls in the river,
A moment white--then melts for ever;
Or like the borealis race,
That flit ere you can point their place;
Or like the rainbow's lovely form
Evanishing amid the storm.--

I'd consider myself happy/ tranquil/untroubled. However I'd disagree with your physiological assessment of happiness. In my opinion happiness doesn't exist on its own, and it certainly doesn't manifest itself in terms of neurons and synapses.

The opposite of happiness could be defined as unease, constant cravings, a troubled mind, suffering. Those things certainly exist in a tangible way, and if you minimise them, you get something close to true happiness. - and you'll find a lot of firing of neural activity associated with all of the above.

It's a bit like the Theist/Atheist concept in fact. You can decide which of the two is tangible and unhappy in that analogy. I make no comment but amusement Grin

I think I'll invent a new worldview. Atheists and Theists are both concerned with, or even obsessed with the notion of gods. Richard Dawkins is certainly obsessed with God. He seems to write about nothing else. It's a concept that they share, albeit at different ends of the spectrum. OK, I am the opposite of that worldview, and that can be summed up as the position that belief in, or lack of belief in the supernatural are equally unimportant in my life.

Think of yin and yang, the old feng shui symbol. Remove the dark portion and the light portion becomes invisible. Alternatively, remove the light portion and the dark portion becomes invisible Grin

Quote:

"Handling abstract concepts is what makes humanity powerful."

Who said that ?

I said that Wink

- and it comes pretty close to the "theist translation" in my OP.

Your beliefs are quite different from mine, yet I can admire the wisdom in religions like Christianity, Buddhism and Jainism to name but three. This wisdom comes down to us from people from ancient times who (just like us) gained happiness by meditating upon possibilities.

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« Last Edit: Apr 20^th, 2012 at 8:45am by muso »

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #49 - Apr 20^th, 2012 at 8:46am

I cant make myself be PC enough to "admire" the teachings of any religion but maybe some parts of budhism. Have you read the bible or the koran? They are full of stuff we see as bad nowadays. Bigotry killing stoning burning dashing babies heads on rocks turning towns into salt giving daughters away to strangers @ the door - real life lessons those.

SOB

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muso

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #50 - Apr 20^th, 2012 at 9:08am

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 20^th, 2012 at 8:46am:

I cant make myself be PC enough to "admire" the teachings of any religion but maybe some parts of budhism. Have you read the bible or the koran? They are full of stuff we see as bad nowadays. Bigotry killing stoning burning dashing babies heads on rocks turning towns into salt giving daughters away to strangers @ the door - real life lessons those.

SOB

I don't hold my worldview as a result of being PC. Human history is full of suffering no matter where we go. As far as Holy Books being full of "bad stuff", well, it's like my next point:

You need to have contrast to make a point. Enlightenment is all in the context.

Does that make sense? (You might have to highlight it with your mouse. ) Grin

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« Last Edit: Apr 20^th, 2012 at 9:15am by muso »

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #51 - Apr 20^th, 2012 at 9:47am

muso wrote on Apr 20^th, 2012 at 9:08am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 20^th, 2012 at 8:46am:

I cant make myself be PC enough to "admire" the teachings of any religion but maybe some parts of budhism. Have you read the bible or the koran? They are full of stuff we see as bad nowadays. Bigotry killing stoning burning dashing babies heads on rocks turning towns into salt giving daughters away to strangers @ the door - real life lessons those.

SOB

I don't hold my worldview as a result of being PC. Human history is full of suffering no matter where we go. As far as Holy Books being full of "bad stuff", well, it's like my next point:

You need to have contrast to make a point. Enlightenment is all in the context.

Does that make sense? (You might have to highlight it with your mouse. ) Grin

Maybe @ context but wouldn't it be easier to get enlightenment from something thats straight up and you dont have to twist your mind around to make yourself think its positive?

SOB

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muso

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #52 - Apr 20^th, 2012 at 10:04am

Quote:

Maybe @ context but wouldn't it be easier to get enlightenment from something thats straight up and you dont have to twist your mind around to make yourself think its positive?

Twisting your mind and strenuous thought are not bad things. I can live with the God reference in the next passage, but you might be prepared to ritually force your fingers down your throat at that point.

Quote:

The Butterfly

A man found a butterfly cocoon. He watched his cocoon for several days. One day a tiny opening appeared in the cocoon. He sat very still and watched as the butterfly struggled for several hours to force itself through the tiny hole of it’s cocoon. Then it seemed to stop making progress. It appeared to the man as if the butterfly had gone as far as it could, and could go no further. So the man decided to help the butterfly out of the cocoon.

He snipped the remaining bit of the cocoon with scissors, and the butterfly emerged effortlessly. There was something strange, however. The butterfly had a swollen body, and it’s wings were shriveled. The man watched closely, expecting that the wings would enlarge and expand to support the body, which would contract in time.Neither happened. In fact, the butterfly spent the rest of its life crawling around with a swollen body and deformed wings. It was never able to fly.

Though the man acted in kindness, what he did not understand was that the restricting cocoon and the struggle required for the butterfly to get through the small opening of the cocoon are God’s way of forcing fluid from the body of the butterfly into its wings so that it would be ready to fly once it has achieved its freedom from the cocoon.

Author Unknown

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Sir Spot of Borg Gold Member Offline WE ARE BORG Posts: 26513 Australia	Re: Why Should I Believe? Reply #53 - Apr 20^th, 2012 at 10:10am Why does a god have to be mentioned @ all in that story? Its just added in there as an explanation for something that is easily understood without the "god dunnit" reference. SOB
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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Why Should I Believe? Reply #54 - Apr 20^th, 2012 at 3:20pm I didn't write it, but I take it that you see the relevance. Substitute the word nature for God, and it works pretty well.
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Sir Spot of Borg Gold Member Offline WE ARE BORG Posts: 26513 Australia	Re: Why Should I Believe? Reply #55 - Apr 20^th, 2012 at 4:49pm muso wrote on Apr 20^th, 2012 at 3:20pm: I didn't write it, but I take it that you see the relevance. Substitute the word nature for God, and it works pretty well. Kinda. It doesnt make me believe in a deity though. Maybe this thread should be moved to the religious section to get some religious ppl into it. SOB
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muso

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #56 - Apr 20^th, 2012 at 9:58pm

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 20^th, 2012 at 4:49pm:

muso wrote on Apr 20^th, 2012 at 3:20pm:

I didn't write it, but I take it that you see the relevance. Substitute the word nature for God, and it works pretty well.

Kinda. It doesnt make me believe in a deity though.

Maybe this thread should be moved to the religious section to get some religious ppl into it.

SOB

I don't think there are many religious people who post here. Apart from Yadda, I think we just have "Christian Atheists".

In the Jain religion, supernatural belief is optional. I think I have explained my own position before. God can be defined any way that you want even within individual religions.

I believe in mass sociological phenomena. Humanity has always acted as a form of neural network. We communicate by totally non-supernatural means - verbal, written, body language etc, but the main thing is that as elements of an overall neural network (which is probably becoming more powerful as a result of the internet), we communicate and what we have is a collective super intelligence that is immanent in one sense of the word, but totally non-mystical, but we don't quite understand it, just as we don't quite understand the basics of life and consciousness. LIfe in itself has an inexplicable element to it. Eastern philosophy tends to focus on this immanent aspect.

Is that supernatural? It depends on definition. Is that a type of god? It can be if you define it thus. If I define it as a god, then I'm a theist, but from the view of a traditional Christian, I could be called an atheist. I compromise by calling myself an atheistic theist, but the best term is probably "Ignostic" because I don't believe we can define gods in a universally acceptable way, and even if we could, we couldn't anticipate all future definitions of gods.

Therefore, I regard terms like theist and atheist as cognitively meaningless.

In terms of how the current universe came about, my beliefs tend to change. I have previously considered multiverse theory, but It seems to be clumsy and inelegant. In contrast, some kind of prime cause or primus motor is quite elegant. I waver between a very basic Deist (non-interventionist) and agnostic positions.

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Why Should I Believe? Reply #57 - Apr 20^th, 2012 at 10:55pm Alain de Botton's "Atheism 2.0" http://www.ted.com/talks/alain_de_botton_atheism_2_0.html
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Amadd Gold Member Offline Mo Posts: 6217	Re: Why Should I Believe? Reply #58 - Apr 21^st, 2012 at 4:49am NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 20^th, 2012 at 10:55pm: Alain de Botton's "Atheism 2.0" http://www.ted.com/talks/alain_de_botton_atheism_2_0.html That guy has some great "nutshell" atheist stuff. Do you reckon he realizes why (or if in fact) he is a theologically-hated atheist? ...Helian?
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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Why Should I Believe?
Reply #59 - Apr 21^st, 2012 at 8:19am

"Therefore, I regard terms like theist and atheist as cognitively meaningless. "

Hence my describing myself as a "non believer". Starting from a position of nothing and someone tells you a story and its obviously fiction you dont believe it. Thing is the religious ppl want to label the ppl that are different from themselves and thats the only label that works for me ATM.

The concept of an xtian atheist is strange though. Do you mean socially xtian but mentally atheist? Like a "non-practicing" catholic? Why xtian? Why not muslim-atheist?

SOB

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Poll
Question: Do you believe in a god?
Yes 1 (12.5%) No 6 (75.0%) Unknown 0 (0.0%) Yes and my religion has the right one 1 (12.5%) Total votes: 8 « Created by: Sir Spot of Borg on: Apr 23^rd, 2012 at 10:06am »