Australian Politics Forum - Worship and Being Human

Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Worship and Being Human Reply #135 - Apr 30^th, 2012 at 4:58pm NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 9:44am: muso wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 9:40am: Many Religious Naturalists don't believe in Atheists either. Religious Naturalism... Always sounded to me like nudism for god. The naked truth...
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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #136 - Apr 30^th, 2012 at 4:58pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 4:16pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 4:10pm:

Nietzsche called it The will to power: Man's intense drive to impose his will on the world.
Religious or scientific, this is man imposing his view on the world.
Nietzsche claimed, at bottom, man was an artist. All interpretations of phenomena is an artform.

With "will to power", that drive is evident in higher order male animals... None, however, shows any evidence of intense desire to know truth nor be an artist for art's sake or for the sake of truth's apprehension.

Nor some humans.

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Soren

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #137 - Apr 30^th, 2012 at 5:06pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 1:21pm:

Yes, I contend that the innate need to worship is part of our species' chemistry.

No, my explanations state my belief that truth is objective and that religious 'truth' is not scientific truth. I know you can read, can you comprehend what you read?

If worship is in our chemistry then religious truth must be also a 'scientific' truth. Or scientific 'truth', I forget which, perhaps because it doesn't really matter.

That is, the random deployment of scare quotes doesn't alter the meaning of words, it just adds elision (hints at what is not said.) But 'argument from what is not said' is not quite a position.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #138 - May 1^st, 2012 at 6:42am

Soren wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 5:06pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 1:21pm:

Yes, I contend that the innate need to worship is part of our species' chemistry.

No, my explanations state my belief that truth is objective and that religious 'truth' is not scientific truth. I know you can read, can you comprehend what you read?

If worship is in our chemistry then religious truth must be also a 'scientific' truth. Or scientific 'truth', I forget which, perhaps because it doesn't really matter.

That is, the random deployment of scare quotes doesn't alter the meaning of words, it just adds elision (hints at what is not said.) But 'argument from what is not said' is not quite a position.

Not random and used in this thread to ease the fears of those who imagine (inanely) that truth is an exclusively religious concept.

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muso

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #139 - May 1^st, 2012 at 6:50am

Chemistry/ cerebral physiology, but it's not that simple. Our cerebral physiology is also a result of our environment, and we can "work out" our brains to improve our neural pathways. Throughout the millennia, we have been doing just that. So to say that it's just a result of our chemistry is not the whole truth. We can change our chemistry. Wink

Some suggest that intelligence developed as a result of long winter nights during the last ice age. Men who were intelligent were better company and more likely to reproduce.

http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/lookupid?key=olbp13505

Getting back to truth, everything is perception based, but perception is also biased by our preconceptions and prejudices.

I think North was using "Worship" and "Religion" in a much broader sense. "Science" is a similarly rubbery concept. For example, theology is the science of religion. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

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« Last Edit: May 1^st, 2012 at 6:56am by muso »

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Sir Spot of Borg Gold Member Offline WE ARE BORG Posts: 26510 Australia	Re: Worship and Being Human Reply #140 - May 1^st, 2012 at 8:22am taking back our words is one thing but "worship" and "sin" and prolly several others have always been theirs. Without religion those words wouldn't have existed. We cant take back what was never ours. Some countries need to learn that. SOB
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #141 - May 1^st, 2012 at 9:44am

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 1^st, 2012 at 8:22am:

taking back our words is one thing but "worship" and "sin" and prolly several others have always been theirs. Without religion those words wouldn't have existed. We cant take back what was never ours. Some countries need to learn that.

SOB

Words evolve as language evolves. There is no word that must remain static throughout the life of usage.

Do a google to find how many words meanings have altered over the centuries.

'Spirituality' is a very good example of a word that not so many years ago would have been exclusively used in the context of orthodox religiosity. Recently that word can be used in the context of 'wondrous (or enthralling) sense of the numinous' without any intended reference to the religious or god.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #142 - May 1^st, 2012 at 10:20am

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 4:58pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 4:16pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 4:10pm:

Nietzsche called it The will to power: Man's intense drive to impose his will on the world.
Religious or scientific, this is man imposing his view on the world.
Nietzsche claimed, at bottom, man was an artist. All interpretations of phenomena is an artform.

With "will to power", that drive is evident in higher order male animals... None, however, shows any evidence of intense desire to know truth nor be an artist for art's sake or for the sake of truth's apprehension.

Nor some humans.

SOB

Wait until you really need to know the truth... You'll see then what lengths you'll go to.

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Conviction is the art of being certain

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #143 - May 1^st, 2012 at 10:29am

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 1^st, 2012 at 10:20am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 4:58pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 4:16pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 4:10pm:

Nietzsche called it The will to power: Man's intense drive to impose his will on the world.
Religious or scientific, this is man imposing his view on the world.
Nietzsche claimed, at bottom, man was an artist. All interpretations of phenomena is an artform.

With "will to power", that drive is evident in higher order male animals... None, however, shows any evidence of intense desire to know truth nor be an artist for art's sake or for the sake of truth's apprehension.

Nor some humans.

SOB

Wait until you really need to know the truth... You'll see then what lengths you'll go to.

Wait until? So this innate need establishes itself randomly through your life? LOL

SOB

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muso

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #144 - May 1^st, 2012 at 10:49am

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 1^st, 2012 at 9:44am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 1^st, 2012 at 8:22am:

taking back our words is one thing but "worship" and "sin" and prolly several others have always been theirs. Without religion those words wouldn't have existed. We cant take back what was never ours. Some countries need to learn that.

SOB

Words evolve as language evolves. There is no word that must remain static throughout the life of usage.

Do a google to find how many words meanings have altered over the centuries.

'Spirituality' is a very good example of a word that not so many years ago would have been exclusively used in the context of orthodox religiosity. Recently that word can be used in the context of 'wondrous (or enthralling) sense of the numinous' without any intended reference to the religious or god.

You can probably blame movements like the Unitarian Universalist Church and Religious Naturalists (nude or otherwise) for that.

Gods Rest Ye, Unitarians (With thanks to Garrison Keillor)

Quote:

Gods rest ye, Unitarians, let nothing you dismay;
Remember there’s no evidence there was a Christmas Day;
When Christ was born is just not known, no matter what they say,
O, Tidings of reason and fact, reason and fact, Glad tidings of reason and fact.

Our current Christmas Customs come from Persia and from Greece,
From solstice celebrations of the ancient Middle East.
This whole darn Christmas spiel is just another pagan feast,
O, Tidings of reason and fact, reason and fact, Glad tidings of reason and fact.

There was no star of Bethlehem, there was no angels’ song;
There could not have been wise men for the trip would take too long.
The stories in the Bible are historically wrong,
O, Tidings of reason and fact, reason and fact, Glad tidings of reason and fact!

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Worship and Being Human Reply #145 - May 1^st, 2012 at 11:11am Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 1^st, 2012 at 10:29am: Wait until? So this innate need establishes itself randomly through your life? LOL Through circumstance, often... Like after a tragedy.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #146 - May 1^st, 2012 at 11:12am

muso wrote on May 1^st, 2012 at 10:49am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 1^st, 2012 at 9:44am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 1^st, 2012 at 8:22am:

taking back our words is one thing but "worship" and "sin" and prolly several others have always been theirs. Without religion those words wouldn't have existed. We cant take back what was never ours. Some countries need to learn that.

SOB

Words evolve as language evolves. There is no word that must remain static throughout the life of usage.

Do a google to find how many words meanings have altered over the centuries.

'Spirituality' is a very good example of a word that not so many years ago would have been exclusively used in the context of orthodox religiosity. Recently that word can be used in the context of 'wondrous (or enthralling) sense of the numinous' without any intended reference to the religious or god.

You can probably blame movements like the Unitarian Universalist Church and Religious Naturalists (nude or otherwise) for that.

And New Age spruikers.

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Conviction is the art of being certain

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #147 - May 1^st, 2012 at 11:22am

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 1^st, 2012 at 11:11am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 1^st, 2012 at 10:29am:

Wait until? So this innate need establishes itself randomly through your life? LOL

Through circumstance, often... Like after a tragedy.

You are serious huh. Well if its innate it shouldn't have to be triggered should it. If it was innate everyone would have it wouldnt they. For most it never happens so it isnt innate. Some ppl have what they think is a "need" for some things. For some its a "search for truth". It doesnt mean everyone has.

SOB

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #148 - May 1^st, 2012 at 11:36am

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 1^st, 2012 at 11:22am:

You are serious huh. Well if its innate it shouldn't have to be triggered should it. If it was innate everyone would have it wouldnt they. For most it never happens so it isnt innate. Some ppl have what they think is a "need" for some things. For some its a "search for truth". It doesnt mean everyone has.

SOB

A sense of hunger is innate... Should it be triggered all the time or just when you need to eat?

If someone injured a close relative, what lengths would you go, to learn the truth about what happened?

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #149 - May 1^st, 2012 at 11:48am

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 1^st, 2012 at 11:36am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 1^st, 2012 at 11:22am:

You are serious huh. Well if its innate it shouldn't have to be triggered should it. If it was innate everyone would have it wouldnt they. For most it never happens so it isnt innate. Some ppl have what they think is a "need" for some things. For some its a "search for truth". It doesnt mean everyone has.

SOB

A sense of hunger is innate... Should it be triggered all the time or just when you need to eat?

If someone injured a close relative, what lengths would you go, to learn the truth about what happened?

Thats not worship.

SOB

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