Australian Politics Forum - Worship and Being Human

NorthOfNorth

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #120 - Apr 30^th, 2012 at 9:40am

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 8:37am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 2:56pm:

We're now at the core of what sets us apart, not only from all animals but (evidently) from all other hominids...

As a species, we have an innate belief that truth exists and an innate desire to know it - to be one with it - that is all pervading. Everything that defines us as unique is subject to it.

We seek it, we venerate it, we honour it, we worship it.

Why is it that a species is so afflicted?

Sorry - atheists dont believe in a deity.

SOB

Correct. Atheists disbelieve the proposition that god exists. However, atheists (as much as any other group) often given up their lives in the pursuit of truth... Just not religious 'truth'.

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Worship and Being Human Reply #121 - Apr 30^th, 2012 at 9:44am muso wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 9:40am: Many Religious Naturalists don't believe in Atheists either. Religious Naturalism... Always sounded to me like nudism for god.
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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #122 - Apr 30^th, 2012 at 10:16am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 9:40am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 8:37am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 2:56pm:

We're now at the core of what sets us apart, not only from all animals but (evidently) from all other hominids...

As a species, we have an innate belief that truth exists and an innate desire to know it - to be one with it - that is all pervading. Everything that defines us as unique is subject to it.

We seek it, we venerate it, we honour it, we worship it.

Why is it that a species is so afflicted?

Sorry - atheists dont believe in a deity.

SOB

Correct. Atheists disbelieve the proposition that god exists. However, atheists (as much as any other group) often given up their lives in the pursuit of truth... Just not religious 'truth'.

Yeah but you are making out that they are the same thing. giving the impression that they are the same thing. Just to justify your belief. You cant say what anyone else "believes" because you dont know. Changing the meanings of words does not make an atheist religious.

SOB

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #123 - Apr 30^th, 2012 at 11:01am

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 10:16am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 9:40am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 8:37am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 2:56pm:

We're now at the core of what sets us apart, not only from all animals but (evidently) from all other hominids...

As a species, we have an innate belief that truth exists and an innate desire to know it - to be one with it - that is all pervading. Everything that defines us as unique is subject to it.

We seek it, we venerate it, we honour it, we worship it.

Why is it that a species is so afflicted?

Sorry - atheists dont believe in a deity.

SOB

Correct. Atheists disbelieve the proposition that god exists. However, atheists (as much as any other group) often given up their lives in the pursuit of truth... Just not religious 'truth'.

Yeah but you are making out that they are the same thing. giving the impression that they are the same thing. Just to justify your belief. You cant say what anyone else "believes" because you dont know. Changing the meanings of words does not make an atheist religious.

SOB

No. What I am saying is that our species, probably alone on earth out of every species that has ever existed (including our hominid cousin species), has an instinct to believe. This belief manifests as worship (being intense desire) of its object, (or at the very least an acknowledgement that truth exists and is ubiquitous) be that religious or just truth itself (as in scientific or philosophical truth and NOT... that is NOT... religious 'truth').

There is a difference between (apparent) 'truth' revealed by religious belief as opposed to that revealed by the deployment scientific or philosophical or mathematical tenets. They are not all the same.

The common denominator in all instances, however, is the concept of truth.

Members of the species homo sapiens have the unique capacity (in fact a species sine-qua-non) to believe that truth(s) exist(s).

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #124 - Apr 30^th, 2012 at 11:21am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 11:01am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 10:16am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 9:40am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 8:37am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 2:56pm:

We're now at the core of what sets us apart, not only from all animals but (evidently) from all other hominids...

As a species, we have an innate belief that truth exists and an innate desire to know it - to be one with it - that is all pervading. Everything that defines us as unique is subject to it.

We seek it, we venerate it, we honour it, we worship it.

Why is it that a species is so afflicted?

Sorry - atheists dont believe in a deity.

SOB

Correct. Atheists disbelieve the proposition that god exists. However, atheists (as much as any other group) often given up their lives in the pursuit of truth... Just not religious 'truth'.

Yeah but you are making out that they are the same thing. giving the impression that they are the same thing. Just to justify your belief. You cant say what anyone else "believes" because you dont know. Changing the meanings of words does not make an atheist religious.

SOB

No. What I am saying is that our species, probably alone on earth out of every species that has ever existed (including our hominid cousin species), has an instinct to believe. This belief manifests as worship (being intense desire) of its object, (or at the very least an acknowledgement that truth exists and is ubiquitous) be that religious or just truth itself (as in scientific or philosophical truth and NOT... that is NOT... religious 'truth').

There is a difference between (apparent) 'truth' revealed by religious belief as opposed to that revealed by the deployment scientific or philosophical or mathematical tenets. They are not all the same.

The common denominator in all instances, however, is the concept of truth.

Members of the species homo sapiens have the unique capacity (in fact a species sine-qua-non) to believe that truth(s) exist(s).

Yeah why do you have this intense need to define atheists as theists?

So an acknowledgment that truth exists is enough huh? Just shows my feeling of entrapment was right there.

So your god isnt the jesus or the allah or the vishnu. yours is the "true" god isnt it. the "truth".

SOB

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #125 - Apr 30^th, 2012 at 11:46am

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 11:21am:

Yeah why do you have this intense need to define atheists as theists?

So an acknowledgment that truth exists is enough huh? Just shows my feeling of entrapment was right there.

So your god isnt the jesus or the allah or the vishnu. yours is the "true" god isnt it. the "truth".

SOB

I'd suggest you let this thread go... It looks like you're never going to comprehend the difference between religious 'truth' and truth.

As for non-theists and atheists pursuing truth... Stories are legion of those disbelievers in god (that's DISBELIEVERS in god), who give up their lives in pursuit of truth via their chosen discipline. And no, they are not religious.

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #126 - Apr 30^th, 2012 at 12:18pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 11:46am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 11:21am:

Yeah why do you have this intense need to define atheists as theists?

So an acknowledgment that truth exists is enough huh? Just shows my feeling of entrapment was right there.

So your god isnt the jesus or the allah or the vishnu. yours is the "true" god isnt it. the "truth".

SOB

I'd suggest you let this thread go... It looks like you're never going to comprehend the difference between religious 'truth' and truth.

As for non-theists and atheists pursuing truth... Stories are legion of those disbelievers in god (that's DISBELIEVERS in god), who give up their lives in pursuit of truth via their chosen discipline. And no, they are not religious.

And you consider them to be "worshiping" their chosen fields because everyone has an innate need to "worship"?

You say "truth" isnt religious yet all your explanations of it say it is. Ohhh maybe wrong word? Not religious but "spiritual"? I bet thats it isnt it?

SOB

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« Last Edit: Apr 30^th, 2012 at 12:27pm by Sir Spot of Borg »

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #127 - Apr 30^th, 2012 at 1:21pm

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 12:18pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 11:46am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 11:21am:

Yeah why do you have this intense need to define atheists as theists?

So an acknowledgment that truth exists is enough huh? Just shows my feeling of entrapment was right there.

So your god isnt the jesus or the allah or the vishnu. yours is the "true" god isnt it. the "truth".

SOB

I'd suggest you let this thread go... It looks like you're never going to comprehend the difference between religious 'truth' and truth.

As for non-theists and atheists pursuing truth... Stories are legion of those disbelievers in god (that's DISBELIEVERS in god), who give up their lives in pursuit of truth via their chosen discipline. And no, they are not religious.

And you consider them to be "worshiping" their chosen fields because everyone has an innate need to "worship"?

You say "truth" isnt religious yet all your explanations of it say it is. Ohhh maybe wrong word? Not religious but "spiritual"? I bet thats it isnt it?

SOB

Yes, I contend that the innate need to worship is part of our species' chemistry.

No, my explanations state my belief that truth is objective and that religious 'truth' is not scientific truth. I know you can read, can you comprehend what you read?

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muso

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #128 - Apr 30^th, 2012 at 2:41pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 9:44am:

muso wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 9:40am:

Many Religious Naturalists don't believe in Atheists either.

Religious Naturalism... Always sounded to me like nudism for god.

LOL. That would be Religious Naturists. My first impression was more like David Attenborough worshipping nature.

LOL, don't worry SOB, all "religious" terms have been hijacked. Why should traditional theists have the monopoly on words like "religion", "god", "spirituality" or even "worship", although the latter seems a bit contrived. All these words are rubbery, as is "atheism". We won't offend the traditional religions by hijacking their terminology - but if you would prefer to offend, go for it.

It's the AYBABTU syndrome recycled. Grin

(All your god are belong to us?)

I have always maintained that knowledge is "sacred", so I guess I can see where you're coming from wrt worship. From a Naturalistic Pantheistic point of view (nature=God=nature), the best way to appreciate the universe that we live in (including ourselves) is to study it. Is that worship? Could be.

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« Last Edit: Apr 30^th, 2012 at 2:49pm by muso »

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #129 - Apr 30^th, 2012 at 3:30pm

muso wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 2:41pm:

LOL. That would be Religious Naturists.

Ah... yes

muso wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 2:41pm:

My first impression was more like David Attenborough worshipping nature.

Just not in the buff.

muso wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 2:41pm:

I have always maintained that knowledge is "sacred", so I guess I can see where you're coming from wrt worship. From a Naturalistic Pantheistic point of view (nature=God=nature), the best way to appreciate the universe that we live in (including ourselves) is to study it. Is that worship? Could be.

Maybe 'Worship' ain't ready to be wrenched from the gnarly hands of religiosity yet, particularly where it may lend itself to the sense of "blind intense desire" or an act of "blind faith".

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muso

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #130 - Apr 30^th, 2012 at 3:52pm

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 12:18pm:

And you consider them to be "worshiping" their chosen fields because everyone has an innate need to "worship"?

You say "truth" isnt religious yet all your explanations of it say it is. Ohhh maybe wrong word? Not religious but "spiritual"? I bet thats it isnt it?

SOB

I always find that it helps to make a cross with the index fingers of both hands when using such terms. Grin

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #131 - Apr 30^th, 2012 at 4:10pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 11:01am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 10:16am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 9:40am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 8:37am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 2:56pm:

We're now at the core of what sets us apart, not only from all animals but (evidently) from all other hominids...

As a species, we have an innate belief that truth exists and an innate desire to know it - to be one with it - that is all pervading. Everything that defines us as unique is subject to it.

We seek it, we venerate it, we honour it, we worship it.

Why is it that a species is so afflicted?

Sorry - atheists dont believe in a deity.

SOB

Correct. Atheists disbelieve the proposition that god exists. However, atheists (as much as any other group) often given up their lives in the pursuit of truth... Just not religious 'truth'.

Yeah but you are making out that they are the same thing. giving the impression that they are the same thing. Just to justify your belief. You cant say what anyone else "believes" because you dont know. Changing the meanings of words does not make an atheist religious.

SOB

No. What I am saying is that our species, probably alone on earth out of every species that has ever existed (including our hominid cousin species), has an instinct to believe. This belief manifests as worship (being intense desire) of its object, (or at the very least an acknowledgement that truth exists and is ubiquitous) be that religious or just truth itself (as in scientific or philosophical truth and NOT... that is NOT... religious 'truth').

There is a difference between (apparent) 'truth' revealed by religious belief as opposed to that revealed by the deployment scientific or philosophical or mathematical tenets. They are not all the same.

The common denominator in all instances, however, is the concept of truth.

Members of the species homo sapiens have the unique capacity (in fact a species sine-qua-non) to believe that truth(s) exist(s).

Nietzsche called it The will to power: Man's intense drive to impose his will on the world.
Religious or scientific, this is man imposing his view on the world.
Nietzsche claimed, at bottom, man was an artist. All interpretations of phenomena is an artform.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #132 - Apr 30^th, 2012 at 4:16pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 4:10pm:

Nietzsche called it The will to power: Man's intense drive to impose his will on the world.
Religious or scientific, this is man imposing his view on the world.
Nietzsche claimed, at bottom, man was an artist. All interpretations of phenomena is an artform.

With "will to power", that drive is evident in higher order male animals... None, however, shows any evidence of intense desire to know truth nor be an artist for art's sake or for the sake of truth's apprehension.

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #133 - Apr 30^th, 2012 at 4:33pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 4:16pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 4:10pm:

Nietzsche called it The will to power: Man's intense drive to impose his will on the world.
Religious or scientific, this is man imposing his view on the world.
Nietzsche claimed, at bottom, man was an artist. All interpretations of phenomena is an artform.

With "will to power", that drive is evident in higher order male animals... None, however, shows any evidence of intense desire to know truth nor be an artist for art's sake or for the sake of truth's apprehension.

Will to power is all encompassing for Nietzsche; it covers "truths" regardless of methodology.
However, Nietzsche was known to dabble in naturalism, but also claims that knowing "things in-themselves" is impossible due to the continual flux of phenomena and varying psychological "types" of human beings there are.
There's still debate over whether he was a naturalist or a "concept-engineer."

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Soren

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #134 - Apr 30^th, 2012 at 4:57pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 4:10pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 11:01am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 10:16am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 9:40am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 30^th, 2012 at 8:37am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 2:56pm:

We're now at the core of what sets us apart, not only from all animals but (evidently) from all other hominids...

As a species, we have an innate belief that truth exists and an innate desire to know it - to be one with it - that is all pervading. Everything that defines us as unique is subject to it.

We seek it, we venerate it, we honour it, we worship it.

Why is it that a species is so afflicted?

Sorry - atheists dont believe in a deity.

SOB

Correct. Atheists disbelieve the proposition that god exists. However, atheists (as much as any other group) often given up their lives in the pursuit of truth... Just not religious 'truth'.

Yeah but you are making out that they are the same thing. giving the impression that they are the same thing. Just to justify your belief. You cant say what anyone else "believes" because you dont know. Changing the meanings of words does not make an atheist religious.

SOB

No. What I am saying is that our species, probably alone on earth out of every species that has ever existed (including our hominid cousin species), has an instinct to believe. This belief manifests as worship (being intense desire) of its object, (or at the very least an acknowledgement that truth exists and is ubiquitous) be that religious or just truth itself (as in scientific or philosophical truth and NOT... that is NOT... religious 'truth').

There is a difference between (apparent) 'truth' revealed by religious belief as opposed to that revealed by the deployment scientific or philosophical or mathematical tenets. They are not all the same.

The common denominator in all instances, however, is the concept of truth.

Members of the species homo sapiens have the unique capacity (in fact a species sine-qua-non) to believe that truth(s) exist(s).

Nietzsche called it The will to power: Man's intense drive to impose his will on the world.
Religious or scientific, this is man imposing his view on the world.
Nietzsche claimed, at bottom, man was an artist. All interpretations of phenomena is an artform.

Nietzsche was mad.

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