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Worship and Being Human (Read 37707 times)
Postmodern Trendoid III
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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #15 - Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:37am
 
You're on to something here, NorthOfNorth.
The need to believe, or worship, or pursue something, whether it be religious or secular in nature, springs from the same instinct. An intimate dialectical relationship between the self and world.
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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #16 - Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:38am
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:29am:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:21am:
Annie Anthrax wrote on Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:12am:
Is withdrawal necessarily an absorption into the self? I'm not convinced about that.

Also, what I believe the autistic discovers (often - at least initially - to their horror) is that withdrawal into the self ultimately leads to the dissolution of the self... That the existential experience of complete absorption into the self leads ultimately not to a sense of separation, but to union.

Would you mind dumbing this down for me - I'm not sure what you mean.

A union with what? Self?

A union with what eastern religions would call 'the one'... That which is beyond self and non-self (in the eastern context).

Experimenters with LSD stepped into that realm (without any requisite training of the experience) by the effects of the drug's inhibition of the mind's ability to distinguish boundaries between self and other.

Some find this experience terrifying, others find it liberating.
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Sir Spot of Borg
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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #17 - Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:42am
 
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:37am:
You're on to something here, NorthOfNorth.
The need to believe, or worship, or pursue something, whether it be religious or secular in nature, springs from the same instinct. An intimate dialectical relationship between the self and world.


Maybe in some. Some have a "need" to worship maybe. Most do not have any such "need". I dont have any need to "worship" any deity or "believe" anything in particular. Generalisations.

The human is born with a need to learn. Not believe or worship or obsess.

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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #18 - Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:44am
 
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:37am:
You're on to something here, NorthOfNorth.
The need to believe, or worship, or pursue something, whether it be religious or secular in nature, springs from the same instinct. An intimate dialectical relationship between the self and world.

Yes. I believe the experience of the possibility of union (where it is assumed by the devotee - secular or religious - that truth will be revealed) is what lies at the heart of our species' innate sense of the need to worship... We are in fact worshipping a sense of knowing truth, even if we also intuit that we can never achieve it.

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #19 - Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:46am
 
Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:42am:
The human is born with a need to learn. Not believe or worship or obsess.

What is that need?

How does it manifest when its objective is great?
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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #20 - Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:48am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:46am:
Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:42am:
The human is born with a need to learn. Not believe or worship or obsess.

What is that need?

How does it manifest when its objective is great?


By not knowing anything. Have you ever seen a baby? They have to learn not to stick their hand on the hotplate. Not just humans either.

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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #21 - Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:50am
 
Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:48am:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:46am:
Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:42am:
The human is born with a need to learn. Not believe or worship or obsess.

What is that need?

How does it manifest when its objective is great?


By not knowing anything. Have you ever seen a baby? They have to learn not to stick their hand on the hotplate. Not just humans either.

SOB

You haven't answered my questions.
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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #22 - Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:52am
 
Quote:
And yet it is separation from the world and from the other that they intensely desire, which is the exact same desire of those who pursue a subject (religious or secular) with intense focus.


Aren't people who pursue a religious or secular goal focusing on some kind of outcome? There is a method to their madness. What happens when they achieve their goal? I don't think this is the same with autistic people. They are withdrawing from disturbing stimuli, not intensely focused on an end point.



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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #23 - Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:58am
 
The common denominator is the ability of human beings to work with abstract concepts. It's a consequence of a highly developed cerebral cortex.

It comes at the cost of instability. There can be parallels with withdrawal in thinkers and autism, but a very small proportion of autistic people, known as autistic savants have enhanced cognitive ability. The type of autism known as Asperger's Syndrome is particularly associated with  savants.

Some of the most influential thinkers in history were bordering on that condition. Einstein is a prime example.

Stephen Hawking did not suffer from autism, but had no choice but to withdraw into the workings of his mind as a result of his motor neuron disease.

The common element is the cerebral cortex, and the use of it, and like any other body part, the more you use it, the more developed it becomes. With the brain, it's the neural pathways that become defined as opposed to muscles. Also in general terms,  the body tends to compensate for  malfunction of an organ or part of an organ by improved function in other senses.  With Hawking, the brain no longer performs the task of controlling a wide range of bodily functions, and consequently abstract thought processes were enhanced. I think that is the key.   

Just for laughs:

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« Last Edit: Apr 29th, 2012 at 11:08am by muso »  

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #24 - Apr 29th, 2012 at 11:02am
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:52am:
Quote:
And yet it is separation from the world and from the other that they intensely desire, which is the exact same desire of those who pursue a subject (religious or secular) with intense focus.


Aren't people who pursue a religious or secular goal focusing on some kind of outcome? There is a method to their madness. What happens when they achieve their goal? I don't think this is the same with autistic people. They are withdrawing from disturbing stimuli, not intensely focused on an end point.




Wouldn't their end point be determined by an intense desire for separation from the other?

Isn't their goal the ultimate and complete separation from the other? Bearing in mind they don't intellectualise their goal, they are just instinctively drawn to it. What they 'worship' as it were (in the form of intense desire) is the need for absolute separation.
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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #25 - Apr 29th, 2012 at 11:10am
 
muso wrote on Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:58am:
The common element is the cerebral cortex, and the use of it, and like any other body part, the more you use it, the more developed it becomes. With the brain, it's the neural pathways that become defined as opposed to muscles. Also in general terms,  the body tends to compensate for  malfunction of an organ or part of an organ by improved function in other senses.  With Hawking, the brain no longer performs the task of controlling a wide range of bodily functions, and consequently abstract thought processes were enhanced. I think that is the key.   

And it is apparent that the advanced development of the cerebral cortex which occurred in homo sapiens and much less so in other humanoid species is that which distinguished us from those other species. One manifestation of this is the desire to reach out beyond the self and its simple interactions with the world and the other, to a greater (even counter-intuitive) reality. What drives our species to believe such a reality exists? An intense sense of wonder, that quickly manifests as worship of 'the numinous', the supernatural or 'the divine'?
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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #26 - Apr 29th, 2012 at 11:10am
 
By the way, re the connection with worship and religiosity, this is just another example of the use of abstract concepts, and most religious leaders are very intelligent.
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Sir Spot of Borg
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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #27 - Apr 29th, 2012 at 11:10am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:50am:
Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:48am:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:46am:
Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:42am:
The human is born with a need to learn. Not believe or worship or obsess.

What is that need?

How does it manifest when its objective is great?


By not knowing anything. Have you ever seen a baby? They have to learn not to stick their hand on the hotplate. Not just humans either.

SOB

You haven't answered my questions.


Uhhh yes i did. What is that need? The need to learn because they dont know anything.

How does it manifest? by putting their hand on the hotplate and learning not to because it burns them.

Oh I guess i didnt address the "objective" well the objective is to stay alive isnt it.

SOB
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #28 - Apr 29th, 2012 at 11:12am
 
Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 29th, 2012 at 11:10am:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:50am:
Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:48am:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:46am:
Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:42am:
The human is born with a need to learn. Not believe or worship or obsess.

What is that need?

How does it manifest when its objective is great?


By not knowing anything. Have you ever seen a baby? They have to learn not to stick their hand on the hotplate. Not just humans either.

SOB

You haven't answered my questions.


Uhhh yes i did. What is that need? The need to learn because they dont know anything.

How does it manifest? by putting their hand on the hotplate and learning not to because it burns them.

Oh I guess i didnt address the "objective" well the objective is to stay alive isnt it.

SOB

You're going to get bogged down here... How do they know they don't know anything?

What is that need?

How does it manifest when its objective is great?
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Sir Spot of Borg
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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #29 - Apr 29th, 2012 at 11:13am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 29th, 2012 at 11:10am:
muso wrote on Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:58am:
The common element is the cerebral cortex, and the use of it, and like any other body part, the more you use it, the more developed it becomes. With the brain, it's the neural pathways that become defined as opposed to muscles. Also in general terms,  the body tends to compensate for  malfunction of an organ or part of an organ by improved function in other senses.  With Hawking, the brain no longer performs the task of controlling a wide range of bodily functions, and consequently abstract thought processes were enhanced. I think that is the key.   

And it is apparent that the advanced development of the cerebral cortex which occurred in homo sapiens and much less so in other humanoid species is that which distinguished us from those other species. One manifestation of this is the desire to reach out beyond the self and its simple interactions with the world and the other, to a greater (even counter-intuitive) reality. What drives our species to believe such a reality exists? An intense sense of wonder, that quickly manifests as worship of 'the numinous', the supernatural or 'the divine'?


SOME of our species. Not all.

SOB
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