Australian Politics Forum - Worship and Being Human

NorthOfNorth

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #30 - Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:15am

muso wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:10am:

By the way, re the connection with worship and religiosity, this is just another example of the use of abstract concepts, and most religious leaders are very intelligent.

If worship can be defined as the manifestation of intense desire or intense love, then its use transcends religiosity in the theistic sense of the term.

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #31 - Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:16am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:12am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:10am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 10:50am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 10:48am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 10:46am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 10:42am:

The human is born with a need to learn. Not believe or worship or obsess.

What is that need?

How does it manifest when its objective is great?

By not knowing anything. Have you ever seen a baby? They have to learn not to stick their hand on the hotplate. Not just humans either.

SOB

You haven't answered my questions.

Uhhh yes i did. What is that need? The need to learn because they dont know anything.

How does it manifest? by putting their hand on the hotplate and learning not to because it burns them.

Oh I guess i didnt address the "objective" well the objective is to stay alive isnt it.

SOB

You're going to get bogged down here... How do they know they don't know anything?

What is that need?

How does it manifest when its objective is great?

What? A baby doesnt know anything. I dont know if it knows it doesnt know anything but prolly not since it doesnt know anything.

Perhaps since you cant wrap your head around my answer you should rephrase the question.

What do you mean im going to get bogged down? You are the one thats bogged down asking the same questions over and over and not reading the answers.

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #32 - Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:19am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:15am:

muso wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:10am:

By the way, re the connection with worship and religiosity, this is just another example of the use of abstract concepts, and most religious leaders are very intelligent.

If worship can be defined as the manifestation of intense desire or intense love, then its use transcends religiosity in the theistic sense of the term.

But that isnt the commonly used definition of worship is it. Its used as a religious term in relation to deities.

SOB

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #33 - Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:19am

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:13am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:10am:

muso wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 10:58am:

The common element is the cerebral cortex, and the use of it, and like any other body part, the more you use it, the more developed it becomes. With the brain, it's the neural pathways that become defined as opposed to muscles. Also in general terms, the body tends to compensate for malfunction of an organ or part of an organ by improved function in other senses. With Hawking, the brain no longer performs the task of controlling a wide range of bodily functions, and consequently abstract thought processes were enhanced. I think that is the key.

And it is apparent that the advanced development of the cerebral cortex which occurred in homo sapiens and much less so in other humanoid species is that which distinguished us from those other species. One manifestation of this is the desire to reach out beyond the self and its simple interactions with the world and the other, to a greater (even counter-intuitive) reality. What drives our species to believe such a reality exists? An intense sense of wonder, that quickly manifests as worship of 'the numinous', the supernatural or 'the divine'?

SOME of our species. Not all.

SOB

Yes, some of us are intellectually incapacitated or dull. But, I believe, even they will in some form express an instinct towards a need to worship something (in the form of intense desire for metaphysical meaning)... The insufficient sense of which is primarily the lament of those afflicted with severe depression and despair.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #34 - Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:21am

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:16am:

What? A baby doesnt know anything. I dont know if it knows it doesnt know anything but prolly not since it doesnt know anything.

Perhaps since you cant wrap your head around my answer you should rephrase the question.

What do you mean im going to get bogged down? You are the one thats bogged down asking the same questions over and over and not reading the answers.

SOB

No, you're completely missing the point...

If a baby is not born with an innate, a priori, intense desire to apprehend truth or meaning, (or if born with a severe intellectual deficit) it would not be motivated to learn beyond sating its most primal needs and, without intense intervention by the other, it would most likely die.

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Worship and Being Human Reply #35 - Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:24am Have you seen the series about the chimpanzees in the Japanese research organisation that can identify the location and order of nine numbers in something like 30 milliseconds?
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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #36 - Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:26am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:19am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:13am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:10am:

muso wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 10:58am:

The common element is the cerebral cortex, and the use of it, and like any other body part, the more you use it, the more developed it becomes. With the brain, it's the neural pathways that become defined as opposed to muscles. Also in general terms, the body tends to compensate for malfunction of an organ or part of an organ by improved function in other senses. With Hawking, the brain no longer performs the task of controlling a wide range of bodily functions, and consequently abstract thought processes were enhanced. I think that is the key.

And it is apparent that the advanced development of the cerebral cortex which occurred in homo sapiens and much less so in other humanoid species is that which distinguished us from those other species. One manifestation of this is the desire to reach out beyond the self and its simple interactions with the world and the other, to a greater (even counter-intuitive) reality. What drives our species to believe such a reality exists? An intense sense of wonder, that quickly manifests as worship of 'the numinous', the supernatural or 'the divine'?

SOME of our species. Not all.

SOB

Yes, some of us are intellectually incapacitated or dull. But, I believe, even they will in some form express an instinct towards a need to worship something (in the form of intense desire for metaphysical meaning)... The insufficient sense of which is primarily the lament of those afflicted with severe depression and despair.

Intellectually incapacitated or dull? lol. An "intense desire for metaphysical meaning" is not anything to do with intellect according to you. You are saying it is an innate need. In which case I can only assume you are trying to insult me.

the word worship is primarily used as a religious term. Its the way ppl understand the word. Trying to change the meaning and context just confuses the issues but its still a religious term and we are not born with any need for religion. Nor are any other animals.

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muso

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #37 - Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:27am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:15am:

muso wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:10am:

By the way, re the connection with worship and religiosity, this is just another example of the use of abstract concepts, and most religious leaders are very intelligent.

If worship can be defined as the manifestation of intense desire or intense love, then its use transcends religiosity in the theistic sense of the term.

Agreed. In another thread, I brought up the subject of religious naturalism.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #38 - Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:27am

muso wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:24am:

Have you seen the series about the chimpanzees in the Japanese research organisation that can identify the location and order of nine numbers in something like 30 milliseconds?

No, but I've seen similar films... Of course no chimpanzee displays any need to worship the banana god, nor manifests an intense desire to apprehend the meaning of banananess or the cause of their existence.

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #39 - Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:32am

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:26am:

Intellectually incapacitated or dull? lol. An "intense desire for metaphysical meaning" is not anything to do with intellect according to you. You are saying it is an innate need. In which case I can only assume you are trying to insult me.

SOB

In a way, I agree with both of you. A baby has a very receptive and "plastic" brain, but it requires input or it will atrophy and probably die. Intelligence is a combination of nature and nurture. Any brain will benefot from exercise, but some brains are more receptive than others.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #40 - Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:36am

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:26am:

Intellectually incapacitated or dull? lol. An "intense desire for metaphysical meaning" is not anything to do with intellect according to you. You are saying it is an innate need. In which case I can only assume you are trying to insult me.

Just having a little dig, sorry... But I'd question your claim to not having a desire to believe anything. You're contradicted by your need to defend your beliefs on this forum which, I'm sure, will become more intense as this enquiry develops.

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #41 - Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:37am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:21am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:16am:

What? A baby doesnt know anything. I dont know if it knows it doesnt know anything but prolly not since it doesnt know anything.

Perhaps since you cant wrap your head around my answer you should rephrase the question.

What do you mean im going to get bogged down? You are the one thats bogged down asking the same questions over and over and not reading the answers.

SOB

No, you're completely missing the point...

If a baby is not born with an innate, a priori, intense desire to apprehend truth or meaning, (or if born with a severe intellectual deficit) it would not be motivated to learn beyond sating its most primal needs and, without intense intervention by the other, it would most likely die.

A baby is born concerned with survival. the need to learn comes from that need to survive. Until they learn enough to actually survive that is pretty much the only need. In nature this is as far as it goes because then they would learn to fend for themselves and stay alive in a hostile environment. However in these times of civilisation most of that is taken away and some develop interests in other things.

I am not sure what you mean by a need for "truth" since a baby or a young child have no concept of "truth" or meaning. They learn that as they go along and find out that touching the hotplate means intense pain.

Some ppl get curious or even obsessed with "meanings" or "truth" and some get mixed up in religions and stuff in their quest. Some do not. Since we are taught in school @ a young age now where we came from it isnt that much of a mystery.

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muso

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #42 - Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:40am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:27am:

muso wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:24am:

Have you seen the series about the chimpanzees in the Japanese research organisation that can identify the location and order of nine numbers in something like 30 milliseconds?

No, but I've seen similar films... Of course no chimpanzee displays any need to worship the banana god, nor manifests an intense desire to apprehend the meaning of banananess or the cause of their existence.

I think that a lot of the dualist concepts in humans arise from the fact that we essentially have a primitive brain (which some call the heart) and a cerebral cortex. The "primitive" brain is just as capable of enhanced development as the cerebral cortex, and in a chimpanzee, there is far less "backchatter" so that speed of processing is enhanced.

Our perceptual inputs come via the primitive brain, and the connection via the hypothalamus is baud limited, leading to what's known as reaction time. If processing is conducted at the primitive brain levels, reaction times are reduced.

Also Google muscle memory.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #43 - Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:41am

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:37am:

However in these times of civilisation most of that is taken away and some develop interests in other things.

Why is that? Why does civilisation exist? How did it come to be?

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:37am:

I am not sure what you mean by a need for "truth" since a baby or a young child have no concept of "truth" or meaning. They learn that as they go along and find out that touching the hotplate means intense pain.

Even non-humans manifest that degree of learning.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:37am:

Some ppl get curious or even obsessed with "meanings" or "truth" and some get mixed up in religions and stuff in their quest. Some do not.

If you did not have a desire towards knowing the truth, or defending what you believe to be true, why are you contributing to this forum?

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Worship and Being Human
Reply #44 - Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:43am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:36am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 11:26am:

Intellectually incapacitated or dull? lol. An "intense desire for metaphysical meaning" is not anything to do with intellect according to you. You are saying it is an innate need. In which case I can only assume you are trying to insult me.

Just having a little dig, sorry... But I'd question your claim to not having a desire to believe anything. You're contradicted by your need to defend your beliefs on this forum which, I'm sure, will become more intense as this enquiry develops.

I am not defending any "beliefs" I am having discussions that keep degrading to meanings of words. I have opinions not beliefs anyway. Although I do have some knowledge in a couple particular fields which i am educated in and you will know if those come up anywhere haha.

As for my opinions they change with the wind. Generalisations piss me off. Sorry but they do. Thats why i keep getting in arguemnts instead of discussions. Because ppl generalise and try to put whole groups of ppl or even everyone into a box.

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