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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49016 At my desk.	4 witnesses May 4^th, 2012 at 11:57am What counts as a witness in Islam? Would a medical examiner count?
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Frances Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3577 In a Castle in the Hills Gender:	Re: 4 witnesses Reply #1 - May 4^th, 2012 at 12:12pm freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 11:57am: Would a medical examiner count? That might depend on his numeracy skills....
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falah

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Re: 4 witnesses
Reply #2 - May 4^th, 2012 at 12:42pm

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 11:57am:

What counts as a witness in Islam?

Would a medical examiner count?

There are different types of trials, which have different burdens for proof.

A conviction for adultery requires 4 witnesses.

One of the aims of the law is to prevent adultery and fornication from becoming widespread and open in society.

In the time of the great scholar, Ibn Taymiyyah, it was noted that in the centuries between his time (died 1328 CE) and Prophet Muhammed's time (610 CE) nobody had ever been convicted and stoned to death for adultery based on the evidence of four witnesses.
It is thought that this remains true until today.

Why?

The testimony of the 4 witnesses requires them to say "I saw his penis in her vagina". There is no alternative to that. If they say: “We saw him on top of her and they were naked”, that is not acceptable. Even if they say “We saw him doing with her what a man does with his wife,” that is not sufficient as testimony. They must say “We bear witness that his penis was in her vagina.”

In 1400 years nobody we do not know of any case that where a person has ever been convicted and stoned for adultery based on the evidence of witnesses!

In other kinds of trial, there are other standards for evidence. For example, contract verification requires two witnesses.

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« Last Edit: May 4^th, 2012 at 12:47pm by falah »

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49016 At my desk.	Re: 4 witnesses Reply #3 - May 4^th, 2012 at 12:45pm Can the court apply a lesser punishment if the standard of evidence is lower?
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falah Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3162	Re: 4 witnesses Reply #4 - May 4^th, 2012 at 12:48pm freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 12:45pm: Can the court apply a lesser punishment if the standard of evidence is lower? For adultery?
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49016 At my desk.	Re: 4 witnesses Reply #5 - May 4^th, 2012 at 2:18pm yes
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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: 4 witnesses Reply #6 - May 4^th, 2012 at 2:31pm falah wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 12:42pm: In 1400 years nobody we do not know of any case that where a person has ever been convicted and stoned for adultery based on the evidence of witnesses! SO on what ground have adulterers been stoned to death then?
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falah

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Re: 4 witnesses
Reply #7 - May 4^th, 2012 at 2:38pm

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 2:18pm:

yes

It is not permissable to make accusations without the four witnesses.

Making an accusation without the four witnesses is a punishable offence.

“And those who accuse chaste women, and produce not four witnesses, flog them with eighty stripes, and reject their testimony forever. They indeed are the rebellious ones. Except those who afterwards repent and do righteous deeds, for verily, God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. ”

[Quran, an-Noor v.4-5]

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49016 At my desk.	Re: 4 witnesses Reply #8 - May 4^th, 2012 at 2:50pm So you cannot even accuse a woman of sleeping around, even if everyone knows it and she is spreading diseases? Does chaste mean virgin? Would this have to be established for that clause to apply?
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falah

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Re: 4 witnesses
Reply #9 - May 4^th, 2012 at 2:59pm

Soren wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 2:31pm:

falah wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 12:42pm:

In 1400 years nobody we do not know of any case that where a person has ever been convicted and stoned for adultery based on the evidence of witnesses!

SO on what ground have adulterers been stoned to death then?

Usually confession. Stoning is an expiation for sin. Some people cannot bear the guilt of adultery, and wish for their sin to be expiated by stoning.

If a person confesses against themselves 4 times before a judge, then the punishment becomes mandatory.

There are exceptions to this rule. For example, if a confessor is found to be insane he/she is not to be punished.

Quote:

Malik related to me from Yahya ibn Said from Said ibn al-Musayyab that a man from the Aslam tribe came to Abu Bakr as-Siddiq and said to him, "I have committed adultery." Abu Bakr said to him, "Have you mentioned this to anyone else?" He said, "No." Abu Bakr said to him, "Then cover it up with the veil of God. God accepts tawba from his servants." His self was still unsettled, so he went to Umar ibn al-Khattab. He told him the same as he had said to Abu Bakr, and Umar told him the same as Abu Bakr had said to him. His self was still not settled so he went to the Messenger of God (Muhammmed, God's blessings & peace upon him) and said to him, "I have committed adultery," insistently. The Messenger of God turned away from him three times. Each time the Messenger of God turned away from him until it became too much. The Messenger of God questioned his family, "Does he have an illness which affects his mind, or is he mad?" They said, "Messenger of God, (we swear) by God, he is well." The Messenger of God, said, "Unmarried or married?" They said, "Married, O Messenger of God." The Messenger of God then gave the order and he was stoned.

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falah

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Re: 4 witnesses
Reply #10 - May 4^th, 2012 at 3:02pm

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 2:50pm:

So you cannot even accuse a woman of sleeping around, even if everyone knows it and she is spreading diseases?

Does chaste mean virgin? Would this have to be established for that clause to apply?

Everyone woman is presumed chaste until proven otherwise. In Islam, we have this idea that people are innocent until proven guilty.

I am curious Freeliar, how would it come that you would personally know whether or not a woman is spreading disease? Would you force her to take a medical test? Sounds like what the Nazis forced the brides of SS officers to undergo.

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Soren

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Re: 4 witnesses
Reply #11 - May 4^th, 2012 at 3:21pm

falah wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 2:59pm:

Soren wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 2:31pm:

falah wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 12:42pm:

In 1400 years nobody we do not know of any case that where a person has ever been convicted and stoned for adultery based on the evidence of witnesses!

SO on what ground have adulterers been stoned to death then?

Usually confession. Stoning is an expiation for sin. Some people cannot bear the guilt of adultery, and wish for their sin to be expiated by stoning.

If a person confesses against themselves 4 times before a judge, then the punishment becomes mandatory.

There are exceptions to this rule. For example, if a confessor is found to be insane he/she is not to be punished.

Time has stood still for you for 1400 years. Your mind is set in a 7th century mould and you have no chance of overcoming this affliction since it is something you have sought out and are cultivating as the main task of your existence.
How dreadful, to be like you.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49016 At my desk.	Re: 4 witnesses Reply #12 - May 4^th, 2012 at 4:24pm Can both parties be sentenced based on the confession of one? If a white woman married to a white man gave birth to a black baby who looked remarkably like the gardener, people would know she had been sleeping around. If all 3 died of AIDS, people would know she had been spreading diseases.
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falah

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Re: 4 witnesses
Reply #13 - May 4^th, 2012 at 5:25pm

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 4:24pm:

Can both parties be sentenced based on the confession of one?

No

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 4:24pm:

If a white woman married to a white man gave birth to a black baby who looked remarkably like the gardener, people would know she had been sleeping around.

They would know?

Quote:

Black parents... white baby

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_-tlhf56Ka7g/TEXsU8hf6fI/AAAAAAAAAEI/grN9lc1DLyU/s1600/...

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3060907/Black-parents-give-birth-to-wh...

Quote:

The black parents shocked when their son was born white with blond hair

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/16/article-1387468-0C156FBA00000578-128_4...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1387468/Black-couple-Francis-Arlette-T...

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 4:24pm:

If all 3 died of AIDS, people would know she had been spreading diseases.

Doesn't really prove anything. They could have been drug users.

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falah

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Re: 4 witnesses
Reply #14 - May 4^th, 2012 at 5:56pm

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 4:24pm:

If a white woman married to a white man gave birth to a black baby who looked remarkably like the gardener, people would know she had been sleeping around.

Sometimes white parents can have black children. Sometimes people have unknown black ancestry like this South African woman born to white parents:

The black woman - with white parents

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2003/mar/17/features11.g2

1955
http://api.ning.com/files/g92Ux971YI3SISpCBLDcOUd4iXnfW*pRnBZavZ5KHM4a9j-wFGUPGa2aRwKZYuIU7LFMU9payQj6MMn5zm1ikorEH5*zgZ-v/PH2007052501036.jpgwidth=721

2009

Quote:

Her parents, Abraham and Sannie Laing, were white - indeed, as members of the Nationalist Party, they were fervent supporters of South Africa's apartheid regime - and yet their daughter undeniably looked black, with her brown skin and tightly curled hair.

Her African features were almost certainly a throwback to an unknown ancestor whose DNA, having lain dormant for generations, had emerged in her. But when Sandra was a schoolgirl, this aspect of genetics was unknown and there was no such thing as a DNA test...

...For Abraham, the idea that his wife might have consorted with a black man, making him the most humiliated of cuckolds, was unthinkable (under South Africa's Immorality Acts, it was illegal to have sex with, or even kiss, a member of another race).

Unpleasant, but far more bearable was the suggestion that he or his wife had a non-white branch near the root of their family tree.

'If her appearance is due to some "coloured blood" in either of us, then it must be very far back among our forebears, and neither of us is aware of it,' he declared.

Such an argument turns out to be entirely conceivable. According to research published in the early Seventies, about 8 per cent of the genes of any modern Afrikaner are non-white.

More recent studies put the number slightly higher, at 11 per cent. Of the 25,000 or so genes that determine inheritable characteristics, only a tiny fraction have to do with skin colour, hair texture and other visible markers of race.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1093674/The-tragic-story-white-girl-born-black-tore-family-apart.html

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« Last Edit: May 4^th, 2012 at 6:05pm by falah »

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