Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5
Send Topic Print
Socialism (Read 3304 times)
Mnemonic
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 1530
Melbourne
Gender: male
Re: Socialism
Reply #15 - May 5th, 2012 at 8:27pm
 
Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 5th, 2012 at 5:23pm:
In most of these things the end result is a few owning everything and the masses having nothing. Capitalism, communism = same end result.


You're probably right to some extent, except I don't think Australians own nothing. It's relative. We have a lot more than people have in third world countries.

The difference between socialism and capitalism is the distribution of property. If people can't own things, then they won't spend their whole lives trying to increase their collection of "wealth." They have no permanent home, no permanent car, television, washing machine, stove, etc. Everything they have belongs to the state.

In a pure socialist society, life revolves around work. In a capitalist society, life revolves around the accumulation of property.

Because people don't waste their time trying to accumulate more property in a socialist society (because they own nothing), they don't waste energy and resources on something "essentially useless" and can redirect their efforts toward something of real utilitarian value like producing capital and white goods, health services or developing a country's military hardware.

Can you increase your worth as a person in a socialist society? Yes. Are you completely equal to everyone else? No. Everybody has something to contribute. Some people are labourers and tradespeople. Some people become scientists and engineers. The State will throw more money at people who contribute more to society. For example, scientists and engineers may be paid more. Because there'd be no buying or selling of property in a purely socialist society, all money paid to scientists and engineers will be spent on R&D projects rather than mortgages.

The trouble with a purely socialist society is that the responsibility for deciding the worth of any work is with a single centralised organisation: the State. If the State mistakenly pours tons of money into projects that ultimately don't help the country as a whole, the entire society suffers. If they also fail to support or sponsor people who have great potential, they will also miss some really great opportunities.

One of the benefits of letting people own "stuff" is so that they can play and experiment with, study and get to know their "stuff." If you control what people own, you might take away the opportunity for someone to develop valuable talents. A person who owns a car may become a car mechanic. A person who owns a computer could become a software developer or accountant. If you can keep your textbooks you might one day be a rocket scientist.

A capitalist society (to some extent) balances itself out. If a company produces a product or offers a service that is practically useless and nobody wants, that company will lose a lot of money and probably go bankrupt and go out of business. It's economic darwinism -- survival of the fittest. The worth of any product, service, project, equipment or property is determined by how willing people are to put money into it. If that product/service/project fails to succeed in its goals, the company that made it will suffer, but the effect on the rest of society is much less than in a purely socialist society.

One of my main gripes with capitalism is money going to inflated property bubbles rather than to production of goods with utilitarian value. I reckon the inflated property bubble is one reason why Australia's manufacturing base hasn't been growing. People put so much money into something that ultimately doesn't do anything but sit there: a house. It's just a construction of wood, brick and cement!!

I think auctions are ridiculous. Auctions contribute to inflation. If someone wants to buy a house, it should be first-come-first-serve, not who's got the most money. Auctions should be replaced with waiting lists. Sad
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
chimera
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 12193
Armidale
Gender: male
Re: Socialism
Reply #16 - May 5th, 2012 at 8:38pm
 
Mnemonic wrote on May 5th, 2012 at 8:27pm:
Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 5th, 2012 at 5:13pm:
Seriously. Is this happening in oz?


No, it's definitely not happening. Private individual ownership of property is still alive and well in Australia.

Most houses are mortgaged. Most finance derives from China. Chian derives from Karl Marx. He owns the lot.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49515
At my desk.
Re: Socialism
Reply #17 - May 6th, 2012 at 8:46am
 
Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 5th, 2012 at 5:23pm:
hawil wrote on May 5th, 2012 at 5:19pm:
Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 5th, 2012 at 4:56pm:
It doesnt mean what you think it means (you knbow who I am talking to)

Quote:
a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.


Link

SOB

I don't know about who you are talking about, but I,am socialist minded, but do not think it works.
Reason; because everybody in society tries to put the cost onto someone else.
Nobody is prepared to contribute to society according to their ability, but want to take as much as possible, even if they do not need what they take.
To me it appears, that we need the whip of the capitalist, to produce the goods and services that a society needs, and the  "wages for the whip" is very high. It can be compared to a horse race; some horses will do all in their power to win a race, and it is useless to use a whip and try to make them run faster, while there are lazy horses, which without the use of a whip would always run last.


In most of these things the end result is a few owning everything and the masses having nothing. Capitalism, communism = same end result.

SOB


False dichotomy.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 5th, 2012 at 5:59pm:
chimera wrote on May 5th, 2012 at 5:58pm:
Dunno. Dunno what the question in #1 is.
Maybe it's like "how much is too much?"
In US the community owns the Postal Service and the military but that is changing with private contractors. Maybe we can all invest in USN and grow the business in Iran oil victories at sea.


Well nothing in oz is community owned really but that friggin NBN - whats that gunna be?

SOB


You haven't put much thought into this have you?
Back to top
 

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49515
At my desk.
Re: Socialism
Reply #18 - May 6th, 2012 at 8:56am
 
Quote:
One of my main gripes with capitalism is money going to inflated property bubbles rather than to production of goods with utilitarian value.


It is where the effort goes that matters and where the potential for waste comes in. The flow of money merely reflects what people want. If you spend a fortune on a house, the money does not disappear. It goes to the owner of the house who can then invest it in something. If ti goes into a new house, then surely that has utilitarian value.

Quote:
I think auctions are ridiculous. Auctions contribute to inflation. If someone wants to buy a house, it should be first-come-first-serve, not who's got the most money. Auctions should be replaced with waiting lists.


You prefer the Russian model?
Back to top
 

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
it_is_the_light
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Christ Light

Posts: 41434
The Pyramid of LIGHT
Gender: male
Re: Socialism
Reply #19 - May 6th, 2012 at 8:59am
 
all of your isms have proven to be a failure

separation from source will manifest this confusion

so be it

forgiven

all is in accordance with the divine plan

namaste

-:)
Back to top
 

ॐ May Much LOVE and CHRISTS LIGHT be upon and within us all.... namasté ▲ - : )  ╰დ╮ॐ╭დ╯
it_is_the_light it_is_the_light Christ+Light Christ+Light  
IP Logged
 
it_is_the_light
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Christ Light

Posts: 41434
The Pyramid of LIGHT
Gender: male
Re: Socialism
Reply #20 - May 6th, 2012 at 9:01am
 
Most houses are mortgaged. Most finance derives from China.

___________

...
Back to top
 

ॐ May Much LOVE and CHRISTS LIGHT be upon and within us all.... namasté ▲ - : )  ╰დ╮ॐ╭დ╯
it_is_the_light it_is_the_light Christ+Light Christ+Light  
IP Logged
 
Johnsmith
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 4716
Gender: male
Re: Socialism
Reply #21 - May 6th, 2012 at 9:02am
 
I think auctions are ridiculous. Auctions contribute to inflation. If someone wants to buy a house, it should be first-come-first-serve, not who's got the most money. Auctions should be replaced with waiting lists.

You wouldn't say that if you were selling the property .. in a market based system it's supply versus demand ... you have one house, and one or ten people demanding it , how much are they willing to pay?  auctions in many way are a prime example of market based systems .. although often peoples emotion overule everything else , thats why agents love auctions
Back to top
 

When politicians offer you something for nothing, or something that sounds too good to be true, it's always worth taking a careful second look.
(Malcolm Turncoat)
 
IP Logged
 
Sir Spot of Borg
Gold Member
*****
Offline


WE ARE BORG

Posts: 26513
Australia
Re: Socialism
Reply #22 - May 6th, 2012 at 9:23am
 
Quote:
You're probably right to some extent, except I don't think Australians own nothing. It's relative. We have a lot more than people have in third world countries.


Heh. 1 thing though I never said this was a communist or capitalist country. In fact I didnt even say it was socialist. I was just pointing out the end results of the 2 systems.

Quote:
You haven't put much thought into this have you?


Thought into what?

SOB
Back to top
 

Whaaaaaah!
I'm a 
Moron!
- edited by some unethical admin - you think its funny? - its a slippery slope
WWW PoliticsAneReligion  
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49515
At my desk.
Re: Socialism
Reply #23 - May 6th, 2012 at 9:41am
 
Into what our community owns.
Back to top
 

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Sir Spot of Borg
Gold Member
*****
Offline


WE ARE BORG

Posts: 26513
Australia
Re: Socialism
Reply #24 - May 6th, 2012 at 9:44am
 
freediver wrote on May 6th, 2012 at 9:41am:
Into what our community owns.


You arent making any sense. Unless you were again trying to insult me instead of answer a question that wasnt directed @ you anyway.

SOB
Back to top
 

Whaaaaaah!
I'm a 
Moron!
- edited by some unethical admin - you think its funny? - its a slippery slope
WWW PoliticsAneReligion  
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49515
At my desk.
Re: Socialism
Reply #25 - May 6th, 2012 at 9:45am
 
Have another think about what our community owns. It's a bit more than nothing.
Back to top
 

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Sir Spot of Borg
Gold Member
*****
Offline


WE ARE BORG

Posts: 26513
Australia
Re: Socialism
Reply #26 - May 6th, 2012 at 10:02am
 
freediver wrote on May 6th, 2012 at 9:45am:
Have another think about what our community owns. It's a bit more than nothing.


What is community owned?

SOB
Back to top
 

Whaaaaaah!
I'm a 
Moron!
- edited by some unethical admin - you think its funny? - its a slippery slope
WWW PoliticsAneReligion  
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49515
At my desk.
Re: Socialism
Reply #27 - May 6th, 2012 at 10:03am
 
The Opera House.
Back to top
 

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Sir Spot of Borg
Gold Member
*****
Offline


WE ARE BORG

Posts: 26513
Australia
Re: Socialism
Reply #28 - May 6th, 2012 at 10:09am
 
freediver wrote on May 6th, 2012 at 10:03am:
The Opera House.


Anything else?

SOB
Back to top
 

Whaaaaaah!
I'm a 
Moron!
- edited by some unethical admin - you think its funny? - its a slippery slope
WWW PoliticsAneReligion  
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49515
At my desk.
Re: Socialism
Reply #29 - May 6th, 2012 at 10:17am
 
The Harbour Bridge.
Back to top
 

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5
Send Topic Print