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bludger Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 314 Gender:	Re: Socialism Reply #45 - May 6^th, 2012 at 7:23pm Atheists have nothing eh? Better than the house of cards you are standing on.
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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Socialism
Reply #46 - May 6^th, 2012 at 9:10pm

Quote:

Spot of Bog wrote
In most of these things the end result is a few owning everything and the masses having nothing. Capitalism, communism = same end result.

SOB

Couldn't be any further from the truth.
People now have more material possessions than they've ever had throughout recorded history.
In Communism, and before industrialization, the masses were dirt poor.

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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 12226 Armidale Gender:	Re: Socialism Reply #47 - May 7^th, 2012 at 8:17am Capitalism generates more goods but the relative distribution is far more unequal. Communist bosses lived better than the masses but the general poverty was handed out fairly.
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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Socialism
Reply #48 - May 7^th, 2012 at 9:19am

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on May 6^th, 2012 at 9:10pm:

Quote:

Spot of Bog wrote
In most of these things the end result is a few owning everything and the masses having nothing. Capitalism, communism = same end result.

SOB

Couldn't be any further from the truth.
People now have more material possessions than they've ever had throughout recorded history.
In Communism, and before industrialization, the masses were dirt poor.

Like I said the end results of the systems.

SOB

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Mnemonic

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Re: Socialism
Reply #49 - May 7^th, 2012 at 2:23pm

One major problem with communism was probably not communism itself, but the speed and means by which it was implemented. The communists pursued their goals through revolution rather than slow and gradual change. They destroyed an already working system. It's like what happened in Zimbabwe. They took land from competent farmers and gave them to incompetent peasants. It was class warfare against the "evil capitalists" or "evil white people." Energy and resources were redirected and redistributed and used inefficiently and ineffectively. Revolutionary communism set society backwards and forced people to relearn things and start from scratch.

Because capitalism did not achieve its goals through revolution, forced seizure of property and goods from those who were already experienced in a particular trade or profession and disruption of existing systems and infrastructure, capitalism didn't have to start from scratch.

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freediver

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Re: Socialism
Reply #50 - May 7^th, 2012 at 2:25pm

Mnemonic wrote on May 7^th, 2012 at 2:23pm:

One major problem with communism was probably not communism itself, but the speed and means by which it was implemented. The communists pursued their goals through revolution rather than slow and gradual change. They destroyed an already working system. It's like what happened in Zimbabwe. They took land from competent farmers and gave them to incompetent peasants. It was class warfare against the "evil capitalists" or "evil white people." Energy and resources were redirected and redistributed and used inefficiently and ineffectively. Revolutionary communism set society backwards and forced people to relearn things and start from scratch.

Because capitalism did not achieve its goals through revolution, forced seizure of property and goods from those who were already experienced in a particular trade or profession and disruption of existing systems and infrastructure, capitalism didn't have to start from scratch.

Interestingly, the Russians are making similar mistakes in their switch to capitalism.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Andrei.Hicks Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 23818 Carlsbad, CA Gender:	Re: Socialism Reply #51 - May 7^th, 2012 at 2:33pm No matter what the question, Socialism is never the answer.
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chimera

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Re: Socialism
Reply #52 - May 7^th, 2012 at 8:34pm

Mnemonic wrote on May 7^th, 2012 at 2:23pm:

Revolutionary communism set society backwards and forced people to relearn things and start from scratch..

But after 70 years Russia should have been starting to get the idea. After 40 years China had it worked out. The communists should be the ruling class for capitalists. This became the Moscow Circus.

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Orgasm Junior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 56	Re: Socialism Reply #53 - May 7^th, 2012 at 8:35pm Andrei.Hicks wrote on May 7^th, 2012 at 2:33pm: No matter what the question, Socialism is never the answer. Pretend democracy is a much more effective form of control
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Grey

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Re: Socialism
Reply #54 - May 8^th, 2012 at 2:52am

Marx did not invent 'socialism' by any stretch.

Quote:

...I believe it is my duty, as it is the duty of all socialists, to maintain for some time yet the critical or dubitive form; in short, I make profession in public of an almost absolute economic anti-dogmatism.

Let us seek together, if you wish, the laws of society, the manner in which these laws are realized, the process by which we shall succeed in discovering them; but, for God's sake, after having demolished all the a priori dogmatisms, do not let us in our turn dream of indoctrinating the people; do not let us fall into the contradiction of your compatriot Martin Luther, who, having overthrown Catholic theology, at once set about, with excommunication and anathema, the foundation of a Protestant theology. For the last three centuries Germany has been mainly occupied in undoing Luther's shoddy work; do not let us leave humanity with a similar mess to clear up as a result of our efforts...

...I myself put the problem in this way: to bring about the return to society, by an economic combination, of the wealth which was withdrawn from society by another economic combination. In other words, through Political Economy to turn the theory of Property against Property in such a way as to engender what you German socialists call community and what I will limit myself for the moment to calling liberty or equality. But I believe that I know the means of solving this problem with only a short delay; I would therefore prefer to burn Property by a slow fire, rather than give it new strength by making a St Bartholomew's night of the proprietors ...
Your very devoted
Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_archives/proudhon/letters/proudhontomarx.html

from correspondence with Marx. An Anarchists view.

Capitalism, which I consider to be a good idea at the time, has reached the apex of absurdity. We have never been wealthier and yet everybody is in debt. We fear the collapse of a mythology; that money has an inherent woth transending honest book-keeping. Clearly some adjustments need to be made.

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"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Socialism
Reply #55 - May 8^th, 2012 at 9:33am

Grey wrote on May 8^th, 2012 at 2:52am:

Marx did not invent 'socialism' by any stretch.

Quote:

...I believe it is my duty, as it is the duty of all socialists, to maintain for some time yet the critical or dubitive form; in short, I make profession in public of an almost absolute economic anti-dogmatism.

Let us seek together, if you wish, the laws of society, the manner in which these laws are realized, the process by which we shall succeed in discovering them; but, for God's sake, after having demolished all the a priori dogmatisms, do not let us in our turn dream of indoctrinating the people; do not let us fall into the contradiction of your compatriot Martin Luther, who, having overthrown Catholic theology, at once set about, with excommunication and anathema, the foundation of a Protestant theology. For the last three centuries Germany has been mainly occupied in undoing Luther's shoddy work; do not let us leave humanity with a similar mess to clear up as a result of our efforts...

...I myself put the problem in this way: to bring about the return to society, by an economic combination, of the wealth which was withdrawn from society by another economic combination. In other words, through Political Economy to turn the theory of Property against Property in such a way as to engender what you German socialists call community and what I will limit myself for the moment to calling liberty or equality. But I believe that I know the means of solving this problem with only a short delay; I would therefore prefer to burn Property by a slow fire, rather than give it new strength by making a St Bartholomew's night of the proprietors ...
Your very devoted
Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_archives/proudhon/letters/proudhontomarx.html

from correspondence with Marx. An Anarchists view.

Capitalism, which I consider to be a good idea at the time, has reached the apex of absurdity. We have never been wealthier and yet everybody is in debt. We fear the collapse of a mythology; that money has an inherent woth transending honest book-keeping. Clearly some adjustments need to be made.

IMO a better system would include elements from all.

SOB

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Grey

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Re: Socialism
Reply #56 - May 8^th, 2012 at 10:45am

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 8^th, 2012 at 9:33am:

Grey wrote on May 8^th, 2012 at 2:52am:

Marx did not invent 'socialism' by any stretch.

Quote:

...I believe it is my duty, as it is the duty of all socialists, to maintain for some time yet the critical or dubitive form; in short, I make profession in public of an almost absolute economic anti-dogmatism.

Let us seek together, if you wish, the laws of society, the manner in which these laws are realized, the process by which we shall succeed in discovering them; but, for God's sake, after having demolished all the a priori dogmatisms, do not let us in our turn dream of indoctrinating the people; do not let us fall into the contradiction of your compatriot Martin Luther, who, having overthrown Catholic theology, at once set about, with excommunication and anathema, the foundation of a Protestant theology. For the last three centuries Germany has been mainly occupied in undoing Luther's shoddy work; do not let us leave humanity with a similar mess to clear up as a result of our efforts...

...I myself put the problem in this way: to bring about the return to society, by an economic combination, of the wealth which was withdrawn from society by another economic combination. In other words, through Political Economy to turn the theory of Property against Property in such a way as to engender what you German socialists call community and what I will limit myself for the moment to calling liberty or equality. But I believe that I know the means of solving this problem with only a short delay; I would therefore prefer to burn Property by a slow fire, rather than give it new strength by making a St Bartholomew's night of the proprietors ...
Your very devoted
Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_archives/proudhon/letters/proudhontomarx.html

from correspondence with Marx. An Anarchists view.

Capitalism, which I consider to be a good idea at the time, has reached the apex of absurdity. We have never been wealthier and yet everybody is in debt. We fear the collapse of a mythology; that money has an inherent woth transending honest book-keeping. Clearly some adjustments need to be made.

IMO a better system would include elements from all.

SOB

That IS an Anarchist system. Anarchism concerns itself with the structure of making consensus decisions; not who's sitting at the table. On Q & A last night there was a general agreement that leadership is problematic for all parties. That's what Anarchism addresses. There's never been a good leader in all human history. The whole concept of leadership is a primitive throwback. We need to make decisions as a community; not elect leaders to make decisions for us.

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"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb

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Andrei.Hicks

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Re: Socialism
Reply #57 - May 8^th, 2012 at 10:48am

Grey wrote on May 8^th, 2012 at 10:45am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 8^th, 2012 at 9:33am:

Grey wrote on May 8^th, 2012 at 2:52am:

Marx did not invent 'socialism' by any stretch.

Quote:

...I believe it is my duty, as it is the duty of all socialists, to maintain for some time yet the critical or dubitive form; in short, I make profession in public of an almost absolute economic anti-dogmatism.

Let us seek together, if you wish, the laws of society, the manner in which these laws are realized, the process by which we shall succeed in discovering them; but, for God's sake, after having demolished all the a priori dogmatisms, do not let us in our turn dream of indoctrinating the people; do not let us fall into the contradiction of your compatriot Martin Luther, who, having overthrown Catholic theology, at once set about, with excommunication and anathema, the foundation of a Protestant theology. For the last three centuries Germany has been mainly occupied in undoing Luther's shoddy work; do not let us leave humanity with a similar mess to clear up as a result of our efforts...

...I myself put the problem in this way: to bring about the return to society, by an economic combination, of the wealth which was withdrawn from society by another economic combination. In other words, through Political Economy to turn the theory of Property against Property in such a way as to engender what you German socialists call community and what I will limit myself for the moment to calling liberty or equality. But I believe that I know the means of solving this problem with only a short delay; I would therefore prefer to burn Property by a slow fire, rather than give it new strength by making a St Bartholomew's night of the proprietors ...
Your very devoted
Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_archives/proudhon/letters/proudhontomarx.html

from correspondence with Marx. An Anarchists view.

Capitalism, which I consider to be a good idea at the time, has reached the apex of absurdity. We have never been wealthier and yet everybody is in debt. We fear the collapse of a mythology; that money has an inherent woth transending honest book-keeping. Clearly some adjustments need to be made.

IMO a better system would include elements from all.

SOB

That IS an Anarchist system. Anarchism concerns itself with the structure of making consensus decisions; not who's sitting at the table. On Q & A last night there was a general agreement that leadership is problematic for all parties. That's what Anarchism addresses. There's never been a good leader in all human history. The whole concept of leadership is a primitive throwback. We need to make decisions as a community; not elect leaders to make decisions for us.

If you're going to San Francisco
Be sure to wear a flower in your hair

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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 12226 Armidale Gender:	Re: Socialism Reply #58 - May 8^th, 2012 at 10:54am Yes it's a primitive fetish to think that someone will have higher levels of special insight from being elected. It's like the idea of royalty being a separate level of humans. We're all the same in the shower, it's just the clothes and posture which are different. Same as animals displaying more height, muscle or feathers.
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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Socialism
Reply #59 - May 8^th, 2012 at 10:59am

Grey wrote on May 8^th, 2012 at 10:45am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 8^th, 2012 at 9:33am:

Grey wrote on May 8^th, 2012 at 2:52am:

Marx did not invent 'socialism' by any stretch.

Quote:

...I believe it is my duty, as it is the duty of all socialists, to maintain for some time yet the critical or dubitive form; in short, I make profession in public of an almost absolute economic anti-dogmatism.

Let us seek together, if you wish, the laws of society, the manner in which these laws are realized, the process by which we shall succeed in discovering them; but, for God's sake, after having demolished all the a priori dogmatisms, do not let us in our turn dream of indoctrinating the people; do not let us fall into the contradiction of your compatriot Martin Luther, who, having overthrown Catholic theology, at once set about, with excommunication and anathema, the foundation of a Protestant theology. For the last three centuries Germany has been mainly occupied in undoing Luther's shoddy work; do not let us leave humanity with a similar mess to clear up as a result of our efforts...

...I myself put the problem in this way: to bring about the return to society, by an economic combination, of the wealth which was withdrawn from society by another economic combination. In other words, through Political Economy to turn the theory of Property against Property in such a way as to engender what you German socialists call community and what I will limit myself for the moment to calling liberty or equality. But I believe that I know the means of solving this problem with only a short delay; I would therefore prefer to burn Property by a slow fire, rather than give it new strength by making a St Bartholomew's night of the proprietors ...
Your very devoted
Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_archives/proudhon/letters/proudhontomarx.html

from correspondence with Marx. An Anarchists view.

Capitalism, which I consider to be a good idea at the time, has reached the apex of absurdity. We have never been wealthier and yet everybody is in debt. We fear the collapse of a mythology; that money has an inherent woth transending honest book-keeping. Clearly some adjustments need to be made.

IMO a better system would include elements from all.

SOB

That IS an Anarchist system. Anarchism concerns itself with the structure of making consensus decisions; not who's sitting at the table. On Q & A last night there was a general agreement that leadership is problematic for all parties. That's what Anarchism addresses. There's never been a good leader in all human history. The whole concept of leadership is a primitive throwback. We need to make decisions as a community; not elect leaders to make decisions for us.

Q-A last night. WTH was that stereotype blond bimbo doing on the panel? If it was for diversity then they would have had someone who actually supports labour.

SOB

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Whaaaaaah!
I'm a
Moron!

- edited by some unethical admin - you think its funny? - its a slippery slope

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