Australian Politics Forum - The glorious aboriginal muslim victory over whitey

falah

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Re: The glorious aboriginal muslim victory over whitey
Reply #150 - Jun 17^th, 2012 at 4:20pm

freediver wrote on Jun 17^th, 2012 at 12:56pm:

Quote:

Notice that the area around Darwin which you said was not farmed is largely vertesol and hydrosol. Wheres, very little of Arnhem Land is covered by these tow soil types.

Actually Falah, it is mostly Kandosol around Darwin. This soil type also dominates in the traditional Yolngu area. What can you tell me about the agricultural potential of this type of soil?

The kandosol areas around Darwin are used for farming.

The swampy hydrosol and vertosol areas are not used for farming.

You can verify this by comparing the map I provided with the map that you provided.

Note that the about half the coast between Darwin and Kakdu is either blue or grey indicating swamplands.

You asked why some areas on this coast was not used for farming. Obviously swamps in this area is your reason.

Now how much of Arnhem Land is coloured blue and grey indicating swamp? By looking at the map, I would estimate that more than 90% of Arnhem Land is neither blue or grey, and therefore not swampy.

As for the soil quality in Arnhem Land, it is comparable and often better than soils in other cattle-grazing areas of Australia. It receives much more rain than most cattle-grazing areas in Australia, and should be able to sustain more head per hectare than most other cattle-grazing regions of Australia.

Most cattle grazers in Australia would be thrilled to have pastures that look like this:

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freediver

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Re: The glorious aboriginal muslim victory over whitey
Reply #151 - Jun 17^th, 2012 at 7:52pm

falah wrote on Jun 17^th, 2012 at 4:20pm:

The kandosol areas around Darwin are used for farming.

The swampy hydrosol and vertosol areas are not used for farming.

You can verify this by comparing the map I provided with the map that you provided

Are you blind?

Look at the peninsula that almost touches the 'n' in Darwin in the first map - a huge area of 'minimal use' (not farming) land. It is right beside Darwin. You would have known this earlier if you had not removed the 'minimal use' thing from the legend the first time you posted that map.

This is on Kandosol soil.

That one was directly east of the capital. Now try looking directly west. There is a peninsula that almost touches Vernon Island. And guess what - it is a huge area of Kandosol soil that is not used for farming.

So there you have it - two massive areas directly east and west of the capital of the NT that even today are not used. Could it get any clearer than that?

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« Last Edit: Jun 17^th, 2012 at 7:58pm by freediver »

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falah

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Re: The glorious aboriginal muslim victory over whitey
Reply #152 - Jun 17^th, 2012 at 10:35pm

The area you refer to is Cox peninsular - a 15 minute ferry ride from Darwin.

As a Victorian, I would like it the Bellarine Peninsluar near Melbourne - a former agricultural region which has become tourist-orientated.

http://www.mytourismtopend.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2...

It has a history of cattle grazing. But now it more like a suburb of Darwin with lots of tourist-orientated industry.

Nearly 2000 people live on the peninsular. About 3/4 are non-Aboriginal people.

http://www.censusdata.abs.gov.au/ABSNavigation/prenav/ProductSelect?newproductty...

The Cox Peninsular does not seem ideal for agriculture as much of it is swampy:

Quote:

Exploring the coastal area and wetlands

There are many bush tracks that run through the coastal plains and the wetlands. Much of this area is not accessible during the wet season and immediately after. The black soil plains can be hazardous until they are fully dried out. Bird life around the wetlands is prolific especially at dusk and dawn.

http://www.mytourismtopend.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2...

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freediver

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Re: The glorious aboriginal muslim victory over whitey
Reply #153 - Jun 18^th, 2012 at 8:41am

Yes Falah. The coastal wetlands are wet, the coastal plains are flat, and the entire peninsula - just like most of the Yolngu land (which also has a lot of swamps if you check your own maps (the recent one, not the dodgy one you first tried to get away with)) - is Kandosol soil that is not much use for agriculture. Even when it is staring you in the face you still go looking for intellectual straws to clutch at.

It is nothing at all like the areas near Melbourne. Any flat land is going to have problems under monsoonal rain.

The Australian soil society describes this type of soil as having "low to moderate" agricultural potential - and this is for agriculture in general and does not take into account the problems faced by European farmers in the wet tropics.

Perhaps the plateau you mentioned earlier would be a better example. Is it some kind of trick by the aboriginal Muslims to call it the stone country to trick white people into thinking there is no topsoil on it?

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falah

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Re: The glorious aboriginal muslim victory over whitey
Reply #154 - Jun 18^th, 2012 at 11:50pm

freediver wrote on Jun 18^th, 2012 at 8:41am:

Yes Falah. The coastal wetlands are wet, the coastal plains are flat, and the entire peninsula - just like most of the Yolngu land (which also has a lot of swamps if you check your own maps (the recent one, not the dodgy one you first tried to get away with)) - is Kandosol soil that is not much use for agriculture. Even when it is staring you in the face you still go looking for intellectual straws to clutch at.

Sadly Freeliar, you do not understand that soils can vary greatly. There is more than one type of kandosol soil. The soils in Cox peninsular are the yellow and grey kandosol soil which are found in poorly drained sites. Much of the kandosol sites in Arnhem Land are the brown and red kandosol soils found in well-drained areas.

Kandasol soils are found in many of the cattle grazing areas of Australia.

freediver wrote on Jun 18^th, 2012 at 8:41am:

It is nothing at all like the areas near Melbourne.

Most of the cattle grazing areas I have visited look nothing like the area around Melbourne Freeliar.

freediver wrote on Jun 18^th, 2012 at 8:41am:

Any flat land is going to have problems under monsoonal rain.

Arnhem Land is about as big as Tasmania Freeliar. Do you know anything of the area?It's topography varies greatly; there are hills, plains, plateaus. Did you read the article i posted about the Florida cattle station which mentions cattle pasture on lush hills?

freediver wrote on Jun 18^th, 2012 at 8:41am:

The Australian soil society describes this type of soil as having "low to moderate" agricultural potential - and this is for agriculture in general and does not take into account the problems faced by European farmers in the wet tropics.

It is still much better soil and land than most of the cattle grazing areas you will find in Australia. I have seen cattle stations in Australia that look like desert. Arnhem Land looks like a paradise compared to these cattle stations established in the inhospitable red centre.

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freediver

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Re: The glorious aboriginal muslim victory over whitey
Reply #155 - Jun 24^th, 2012 at 7:24pm

Yet again, the evidence presented by Falah contradicts his own claims, so he makes some up instead. The only evidence that actually backs him up - the evidence he keeps falling back on - is assessments made in the 1800's by people who know nothing about farming the tropics.

Falah, can you explain why the two examples of farms in Arnhem land you gave - one heavily subsidised by the government, the other a non-event due to lack of handouts - are both about as far away from the Yolngu lands as it is possible to get?

How fertile is the plateau you mentioned earlier - the one they refer to as the 'stone country'?

Where are the two edited maps from that you presented earlier? Do you concede that the one of wetlands is completely bogus?

Quote:

Arnhem Land is about as big as Tasmania Freeliar.

And by your own admission could support about 20 viable farms - a potential that 100 years later still cannot be realised. What does that tell you about the fertility and farmability Falah?

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falah

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Re: The glorious aboriginal muslim victory over whitey
Reply #156 - Jun 24^th, 2012 at 11:01pm

freediver wrote on Jun 24^th, 2012 at 7:24pm:

And by your own admission could support about 20 viable farms - a potential that 100 years later still cannot be realised. What does that tell you about the fertility and farmability Falah?

Freeliar, don't you realise that it only exposes how weak your argument is when you roll lies like this?

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freediver

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Re: The glorious aboriginal muslim victory over whitey
Reply #157 - Jun 25^th, 2012 at 9:44am

falah wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 10:37pm:

[quote author=23372020212C332037450 link=1338172056/56#56 date=1338621129]

Yes, but Arnhem Land is about 20 times bigger, and of similar type of land. Therefore Arnhem Land should be able to support at least 20 of these profitable cattle stations.

And this is of course the entire Arnhem land, of which the Yolngu area is but a corner, and even the current owners get as far away from the traditional Yolngu lands as possible to set up farms (a grand total of 1 so far, and it needs government subsidies to be viable). Does it not seem kind of absurd to you that a farm needs massive subsidies to be viable when the land is essentially free for the farmers?

Falah would you include the 'stone country' as being a similar type of land? Have you even heard this term before? I must have asked you about it a dozen times now and you are yet to even acknowledge the question. Is the plateau you mentioned a while back as an example of better drained country the same place as the stone country?

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49366 At my desk.	Re: The glorious aboriginal muslim victory over whitey Reply #158 - Jun 28^th, 2012 at 8:17pm Falah, did your estimate of 20 viable farms include the 'stone country'?
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Re: The glorious aboriginal muslim victory over whitey
Reply #159 - Jun 30^th, 2012 at 11:35am

Here is a picture of one of the plateaus Falah thinks the Yolngu valiantly scared the white farmers off:

http://www.environment.gov.au/parks/kakadu/nature-science/habitats-stone.html

Strangely enough, the only farm in Arnhem land (the one subsidised by the government) is perched between this stone country and the swamps of Kakadu - apparently where all that soil ended up, a few feet under water for much of the year. The farm has less than one tenth of the cattle of the large white owned farm that Falah used as an example of what he thinks could be done in Arnhem land.

Quote:

The dominant sandstone escarpment of the Arnhem Land Plateau ranges in height from 30 metres to 300 metres, and includes the rock shelters and outliers of Ubirr and Nourlangie. In some areas the escarpment is eroding by up to one metre every thousand years.

It is believed that 140 million years ago much of Kakadu was under a shallow sea. The prominent escarpment wall formed sea cliffs and the Arnhem Land plateau formed a flat land above the sea. Today the escarpment, which rises to 330 metres above the plains, extends over 500 kilometres along the eastern boundary of the park. It varies from vertical cliffs in the Jim Jim Falls area to stepped cliffs and isolated outliers in the north.

The rock platforms of the plateau are dissected by a network of chasms and gorges. The top of the plateau is a harsh, dry place. Water drains away quickly. In most areas soil is scarce. The small patches of soil that are to be found consist mostly of coarse sand and leaf litter trapped in rock fissures or shallow depressions. Sparsely distributed pockets of woodland and open forest have developed on these coarse soils.

Along the escarpment, creeks have etched deep incisions to form gorges in which tall monsoon forests have developed. Water seeping from rock walls and the deep alluvial soils provide an important micro-environment for plants and animals. Many animals rely on these areas for refuge during the drier months. The dominant plant species is Allosyncarpia ternata, a large, spreading, shady tree that is found only in the Kakadu and Arnhem Land region.

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falah

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Re: The glorious aboriginal muslim victory over whitey
Reply #160 - Jul 2^nd, 2012 at 12:06am

Nice try Freeliar. Perhaps you can explain why you didn't show this photo of the savannah woodlands which most of Arnhem Land:

Quote:

http://www.environment.gov.au/parks/kakadu/images/banner-savannah.jpg

Travelling anywhere in Kakadu, you cannot help noticing the lowlands - they make up nearly 80 per cent of the park...

http://www.environment.gov.au/parks/kakadu/nature-science/habitats-lowlands.html

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freediver

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Re: The glorious aboriginal muslim victory over whitey
Reply #161 - Jul 2^nd, 2012 at 8:43am

falah wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2012 at 12:06am:

Nice try Freeliar. Perhaps you can explain why you didn't show this photo of the savannah woodlands which most of Arnhem Land:

Quote:
...

Travelling anywhere in Kakadu, you cannot help noticing the lowlands - they make up nearly 80 per cent of the park...

http://www.environment.gov.au/parks/kakadu/nature-science/habitats-lowlands.html

Falah, is Arnhem land in Kakadu?

Did you really write a thesis about this?

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falah

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Re: The glorious aboriginal muslim victory over whitey
Reply #162 - Jul 2^nd, 2012 at 2:15pm

Kakadu is part of Arnhem Land. I thought you would have realised that considering that you posted a photo from the website about Kakadu.

Quote:

The Arnhem Land Region is one of the five regions of the Northern Territory of Australia. It is located in the north-eastern corner of the territory and is around 500 km from the territory capital Darwin. The region has an area of 97,000 km² which also covers the area of Kakadu National Park, and a population of 16,230. The explorer Matthew Flinders named the region after the Dutch ship Arnhem, which was used to explore the coast in 1623. The ship itself was named after the city of Arnhem in the Netherlands.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnhem_Land

One of the biggest population centres in Arnhem Land is Jabiru in Kakadu. There is a nice Aboriginal cultural centre there. I visited it in 2005.

The rest of Arnhem Land is basically like Kakadu. There are a few swampy areas, much of it is savannah woodlands, and some of it is tableland.

I have visited parts of the tableland in Kakadu. There are lots of interesting Aboriginal rock paintings at places like Nourlangie. Nice waterfalls in the tableland too.

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Re: The glorious aboriginal muslim victory over whitey
Reply #163 - Jul 2^nd, 2012 at 5:47pm

So Falah, how relevant is the percentage of lowlands in Kakadu to the farmability of the Yolngu areas and the aboriginal 'resistance'? Does the topsoil and water from the Arnhem land plateau (the stone country) end up in Kakadu?

Quote:

The rest of Arnhem Land is basically like Kakadu.

When I described it as being similar earlier, you went to great pains to point out the differences, claiming that it did not suffer the same problems as the lowlands of kakadu under monsoonal rains, because of the fertile plateau (that turned out to consist of a lot of bare rock).

When you wrote your 'thesis', did you ever come across the term 'stone country'?

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falah

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Re: The glorious aboriginal muslim victory over whitey
Reply #164 - Jul 2^nd, 2012 at 11:18pm

falah wrote on Jun 17^th, 2012 at 4:20pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 17^th, 2012 at 12:56pm:

Quote:

Notice that the area around Darwin which you said was not farmed is largely vertesol and hydrosol. Wheres, very little of Arnhem Land is covered by these tow soil types.

Actually Falah, it is mostly Kandosol around Darwin. This soil type also dominates in the traditional Yolngu area. What can you tell me about the agricultural potential of this type of soil?

The kandosol areas around Darwin are used for farming.

The swampy hydrosol and vertosol areas are not used for farming.

You can verify this by comparing the map I provided with the map that you provided.

http://www.anra.gov.au/topics/land/images/maps/state/nt/lu_landuse.gif

http://www.environment.gov.au/soe/2011/report/land/images/lan-fig5-2-lge.png

Note that the about half the coast between Darwin and Kakdu is either blue or grey indicating swamplands.

You asked why some areas on this coast was not used for farming. Obviously swamps in this area is your reason.

Now how much of Arnhem Land is coloured blue and grey indicating swamp? By looking at the map, I would estimate that more than 90% of Arnhem Land is neither blue or grey, and therefore not swampy.

As for the soil quality in Arnhem Land, it is comparable and often better than soils in other cattle-grazing areas of Australia. It receives much more rain than most cattle-grazing areas in Australia, and should be able to sustain more head per hectare than most other cattle-grazing regions of Australia.

http://kernow.curtin.edu.au/www/Agrirobot1/map.gif

Most cattle grazers in Australia would be thrilled to have pastures that look like this:

http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2011/08/19/1226118/002197-110820-stockman.j...

http://www.nlc.org.au/images/sized/files/various/DSC00468-400x0.JPG

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