Australian Politics Forum - "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM

corporate_whitey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 8896 Archivist	Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM Reply #135 - Jun 13^th, 2012 at 6:15pm This is the sign of an abusive authoritarian Government that tells the people, "you will never or you don't matter"....
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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #136 - Jun 13^th, 2012 at 7:08pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 13^th, 2012 at 6:12pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 13^th, 2012 at 1:59pm:

Well abbott just said on TV that if he repeals the carbon tax he wont repeal the compensation. Just as well cause that "compensation" wasnt compensation @ all it was something that would been done anyway. Doesnt matter. Abbott will never be PM so topic is moot.

SOB

So so specialise in making a fool of yourself.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1339503207

Abbott's support is collapsing

and

Liberals today continued their slide (primary ~ newspoll)

Are the two connected. Is Abbott dragging down the Lib primary vote?

http://resources.news.com.au/files/2012/06/12/1226392/417502-120612-newspoll.pdf

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freediver

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #137 - Jun 13^th, 2012 at 7:29pm

Quote:

you talk about holding govts accountable but only at elections as if there is no requirement for the govt to listen in between.

What else are you going to do in between elections? Whine about it on internet forums? Shoot someone? Sue the government over a broken election promise?

Quote:

I know you love the carbon tax, but mandates are matters of principle.

And election outcomes are matters of hundreds of principles.

Quote:

The ultimate ends of what you are talking about is govts doing absolutely anythign they can to get into power and then utterly ignoring them when there.

No Longy, you have it backwards. Political parties and even most independents are not out to get elected once. They are out to get elected over and over again.

Quote:

And now you are trying to say that if the elction campaign is fought substantially over the Carbon tax and Abbott wins a significant majority that that means nothing?

No Longy. Try sticking to what I actually say.

Quote:

you often talk about making our political system more accountable, yet your every post on the matter says the opposite.

Not if you respond to what my posts actually say rather than making up your own version instead.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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longweekend58

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #138 - Jun 14^th, 2012 at 4:29pm

freediver wrote on Jun 13^th, 2012 at 7:29pm:

Quote:

you talk about holding govts accountable but only at elections as if there is no requirement for the govt to listen in between.

What else are you going to do in between elections? Whine about it on internet forums? Shoot someone? Sue the government over a broken election promise?

Quote:

I know you love the carbon tax, but mandates are matters of principle.

And election outcomes are matters of hundreds of principles.

Quote:

The ultimate ends of what you are talking about is govts doing absolutely anythign they can to get into power and then utterly ignoring them when there.

No Longy, you have it backwards. Political parties and even most independents are not out to get elected once. They are out to get elected over and over again.

Quote:

And now you are trying to say that if the elction campaign is fought substantially over the Carbon tax and Abbott wins a significant majority that that means nothing?

No Longy. Try sticking to what I actually say.

Quote:

you often talk about making our political system more accountable, yet your every post on the matter says the opposite.

Not if you respond to what my posts actually say rather than making up your own version instead.

how about making them LISTEN in the first place! You do that by - as a community - demanding that they uphold their promises and that they listen to you. You start by demanding of MPs that they obey the conventions and long-standing practices of parliament.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #139 - Jun 14^th, 2012 at 4:33pm

freediver wrote on Jun 13^th, 2012 at 7:29pm:

Quote:

you talk about holding govts accountable but only at elections as if there is no requirement for the govt to listen in between.

What else are you going to do in between elections? Whine about it on internet forums? Shoot someone? Sue the government over a broken election promise?

Quote:

I know you love the carbon tax, but mandates are matters of principle.

And election outcomes are matters of hundreds of principles.

Quote:

The ultimate ends of what you are talking about is govts doing absolutely anythign they can to get into power and then utterly ignoring them when there.

No Longy, you have it backwards. Political parties and even most independents are not out to get elected once. They are out to get elected over and over again.

Quote:

And now you are trying to say that if the elction campaign is fought substantially over the Carbon tax and Abbott wins a significant majority that that means nothing?

No Longy. Try sticking to what I actually say.

Quote:

you often talk about making our political system more accountable, yet your every post on the matter says the opposite.

Not if you respond to what my posts actually say rather than making up your own version instead.

do you really believe that people wigh up 100 issues before deciding to vote? This probably explains some of your more curious posts regarding politic.s you grant voters far more intelligence and interst than is reasonable. For many people there really IS only one issue at an election. Workchoices was one. GST was another. And at the next election the predominant issue will be the carbon tax. Im not sure why you want to ignore this concept. The concept of the mandate used to be understood, but now it seems to have evaporated. Libs understood the anti-workchoices mandate but in an election widely expected to deliver a flogging of the ALp and community rejection of the CT beiung massive you want to pretend that a mandate doesnt exists.

There is NO CONCEIVABLE way that the ALP can pretend there is community supprot for the CT - even now. After an election they are morally and durty bound to vote for its repeal.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #140 - Jun 14^th, 2012 at 4:35pm

freediver wrote on Jun 13^th, 2012 at 7:29pm:

Quote:

you talk about holding govts accountable but only at elections as if there is no requirement for the govt to listen in between.

What else are you going to do in between elections? Whine about it on internet forums? Shoot someone? Sue the government over a broken election promise?

Quote:

I know you love the carbon tax, but mandates are matters of principle.

And election outcomes are matters of hundreds of principles.

Quote:

The ultimate ends of what you are talking about is govts doing absolutely anythign they can to get into power and then utterly ignoring them when there.

No Longy, you have it backwards. Political parties and even most independents are not out to get elected once. They are out to get elected over and over again.

Quote:

And now you are trying to say that if the elction campaign is fought substantially over the Carbon tax and Abbott wins a significant majority that that means nothing?

No Longy. Try sticking to what I actually say.

Quote:

you often talk about making our political system more accountable, yet your every post on the matter says the opposite.

Not if you respond to what my posts actually say rather than making up your own version instead.

try again FD.... govts will act with no interest in our wishes if we let them. If we let them beleive that they have carte blanche to do whatever they want between elections then that is exactly what they will do.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #141 - Jun 14^th, 2012 at 4:38pm

freediver wrote on Jun 13^th, 2012 at 7:29pm:

[quote]you talk about holding govts accountable but only at elections as if there is no requirement for the govt to listen in between.

What else are you going to do in between elections? Whine about it on internet forums? Shoot someone? Sue the government over a broken election promise?

Quote:

I know you love the carbon tax, but mandates are matters of principle.

And election outcomes are matters of hundreds of principles.

Quote:

The ultimate ends of what you are talking about is govts doing absolutely anythign they can to get into power and then utterly ignoring them when there.

No Longy, you have it backwards. Political parties and even most independents are not out to get elected once. They are out to get elected over and over again.

Quote:

And now you are trying to say that if the elction campaign is fought substantially over the Carbon tax and Abbott wins a significant majority that that means nothing?

No Longy. Try sticking to what I actually say.

Quote:

you often talk about making our political system more accountable, yet your every post on the matter says the opposite.

Not if you respond to what my posts actually say rather than making up your own version instead.[/quote]

Im not making up my own version. You talk the talk of accountability but when the issue is the CT you say they did nothing wrong. How do you figure that? It is massively unpopular, was brought in after a election promise NOT to do it and now they are saying that no matter what the vote, they will ignore the people's wishes. On what planet is that being held to account? If you do not reject that behaviour then you are defacto supporting what they are doing which is the very opposite of representing us.

I liked workchoices. I opposed its introduction without electoral mandate. Why cant you both like the CT and recognise that it has no legitimate right to exist?

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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john_g

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #142 - Jun 14^th, 2012 at 4:52pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 4:38pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 13^th, 2012 at 7:29pm:

[quote]you talk about holding govts accountable but only at elections as if there is no requirement for the govt to listen in between.

What else are you going to do in between elections? Whine about it on internet forums? Shoot someone? Sue the government over a broken election promise?

Quote:

I know you love the carbon tax, but mandates are matters of principle.

And election outcomes are matters of hundreds of principles.

Quote:

The ultimate ends of what you are talking about is govts doing absolutely anythign they can to get into power and then utterly ignoring them when there.

No Longy, you have it backwards. Political parties and even most independents are not out to get elected once. They are out to get elected over and over again.

Quote:

And now you are trying to say that if the elction campaign is fought substantially over the Carbon tax and Abbott wins a significant majority that that means nothing?

No Longy. Try sticking to what I actually say.

Quote:

you often talk about making our political system more accountable, yet your every post on the matter says the opposite.

Not if you respond to what my posts actually say rather than making up your own version instead.[/quote]

Im not making up my own version. You talk the talk of accountability but when the issue is the CT you say they did nothing wrong. How do you figure that? It is massively unpopular, was brought in after a election promise NOT to do it and now they are saying that no matter what the vote, they will ignore the people's wishes. On what planet is that being held to account? If you do not reject that behaviour then you are defacto supporting what they are doing which is the very opposite of representing us.

I liked workchoices. I opposed its introduction without electoral mandate. Why cant you both like the CT and recognise that it has no legitimate right to exist?

I didn't support Workchoices, but it doesn't compare to the carbon tax. Howard never said anything about it either way. Gillard explicitly promised that there would be no carbon tax. There's a world of difference.

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longweekend58

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #143 - Jun 14^th, 2012 at 5:55pm

john_g wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 4:52pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 4:38pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 13^th, 2012 at 7:29pm:

[quote]you talk about holding govts accountable but only at elections as if there is no requirement for the govt to listen in between.

What else are you going to do in between elections? Whine about it on internet forums? Shoot someone? Sue the government over a broken election promise?

Quote:

I know you love the carbon tax, but mandates are matters of principle.

And election outcomes are matters of hundreds of principles.

Quote:

The ultimate ends of what you are talking about is govts doing absolutely anythign they can to get into power and then utterly ignoring them when there.

No Longy, you have it backwards. Political parties and even most independents are not out to get elected once. They are out to get elected over and over again.

Quote:

And now you are trying to say that if the elction campaign is fought substantially over the Carbon tax and Abbott wins a significant majority that that means nothing?

No Longy. Try sticking to what I actually say.

Quote:

you often talk about making our political system more accountable, yet your every post on the matter says the opposite.

Not if you respond to what my posts actually say rather than making up your own version instead.[/quote]

Im not making up my own version. You talk the talk of accountability but when the issue is the CT you say they did nothing wrong. How do you figure that? It is massively unpopular, was brought in after a election promise NOT to do it and now they are saying that no matter what the vote, they will ignore the people's wishes. On what planet is that being held to account? If you do not reject that behaviour then you are defacto supporting what they are doing which is the very opposite of representing us.

I liked workchoices. I opposed its introduction without electoral mandate. Why cant you both like the CT and recognise that it has no legitimate right to exist?

I didn't support Workchoices, but it doesn't compare to the carbon tax. Howard never said anything about it either way. Gillard explicitly promised that there would be no carbon tax. There's a world of difference.

in general Id agree, John. Howard said nothing about it which is certainly much better than promising one thing and delivering the opposite. However, howard was wrng as well. he shoudl have sought electoral confirmation first. I know he didnt expect a senate majority but thats no excuse. It was his biggest mistake in a stellar political career. Mind you. I think work choices was mostly ok and by the end was pretty good.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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freediver

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #144 - Jun 14^th, 2012 at 6:27pm

Quote:

how about making them LISTEN in the first place! You do that by - as a community - demanding that they uphold their promises and that they listen to you. You start by demanding of MPs that they obey the conventions and long-standing practices of parliament.

And how do you do that? Whine about them on internet forums? Shoot someone? Sue the government over a broken election promise?

Quote:

do you really believe that people wigh up 100 issues before deciding to vote?

As individuals they weigh up the issues they are interested in. You only have to look around here to see the huge variety of issues that people think are important. The community as a whole weighs up hundreds of issues.

Quote:

Im not sure why you want to ignore this concept.

I am not ignoring it at all. I have been discussing it with you for a few pages.

Quote:

The concept of the mandate used to be understood, but now it seems to have evaporated.

I think you have a rose tinted view of history.

Quote:

try again FD.... govts will act with no interest in our wishes if we let them.

What makes you think I am suggesting we let them? You are still having trouble figuring out what I actually posted.

Quote:

Im not making up my own version.

Well it certainly isn't what I said. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else.

Quote:

You talk the talk of accountability but when the issue is the CT you say they did nothing wrong.

Here is a good example of you making stuff up rather than responding to what I actually post.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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falah Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3162	Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM Reply #145 - Jun 14^th, 2012 at 7:14pm john_g wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 4:52pm: Gillard explicitly promised that there would be no carbon tax. There's a world of difference. Maybe it was a non-core promise? Who told us that we would never, ever have a GST and then subsequently invented core promises and non-core promises?
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Dnarever

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #146 - Jun 14^th, 2012 at 7:16pm

john_g wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 4:52pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 4:38pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 13^th, 2012 at 7:29pm:

[quote]you talk about holding govts accountable but only at elections as if there is no requirement for the govt to listen in between.

What else are you going to do in between elections? Whine about it on internet forums? Shoot someone? Sue the government over a broken election promise?

Quote:

I know you love the carbon tax, but mandates are matters of principle.

And election outcomes are matters of hundreds of principles.

Quote:

The ultimate ends of what you are talking about is govts doing absolutely anythign they can to get into power and then utterly ignoring them when there.

No Longy, you have it backwards. Political parties and even most independents are not out to get elected once. They are out to get elected over and over again.

Quote:

And now you are trying to say that if the elction campaign is fought substantially over the Carbon tax and Abbott wins a significant majority that that means nothing?

No Longy. Try sticking to what I actually say.

Quote:

you often talk about making our political system more accountable, yet your every post on the matter says the opposite.

Not if you respond to what my posts actually say rather than making up your own version instead.[/quote]

Im not making up my own version. You talk the talk of accountability but when the issue is the CT you say they did nothing wrong. How do you figure that? It is massively unpopular, was brought in after a election promise NOT to do it and now they are saying that no matter what the vote, they will ignore the people's wishes. On what planet is that being held to account? If you do not reject that behaviour then you are defacto supporting what they are doing which is the very opposite of representing us.

I liked workchoices. I opposed its introduction without electoral mandate. Why cant you both like the CT and recognise that it has no legitimate right to exist?

I didn't support Workchoices, but it doesn't compare to the carbon tax. Howard never said anything about it either way. Gillard explicitly promised that there would be no carbon tax. There's a world of difference.

Before the 2004 election Howard said in an interview when asked about IR that there was no plan for any major change.

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corporate_whitey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 8896 Archivist	Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM Reply #147 - Jun 14^th, 2012 at 7:33pm In a democracy things can always be repealed...
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matty

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #148 - Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:11pm

falah wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 7:14pm:

john_g wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 4:52pm:

Gillard explicitly promised that there would be no carbon tax. There's a world of difference.

Maybe it was a non-core promise? Who told us that we would never, ever have a GST and then subsequently invented core promises and non-core promises?

Hmmm, I thought that he took the GST straight to the 1998 election, after changing his mind.

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BILL SHORTEN WILL NEVER BE PM!!!!

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Dnarever

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #149 - Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:28pm

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 13^th, 2012 at 1:59pm:

Well abbott just said on TV that if he repeals the carbon tax he wont repeal the compensation. Just as well cause that "compensation" wasnt compensation @ all it was something that would been done anyway. Doesnt matter. Abbott will never be PM so topic is moot.

SOB

Abbott has said that from the start but a number of his shadow ministers have backed away from that position.

It only makes it less likely that he will remove the fixed price.

He is really going to spend billions in compensation etc and remove the mechanism which pays for it, His financial black hole is already extensive without this.

Sorry but his rubbish is not believable.

He wants direct action which would cost ten times more for an equal result plus billions in compensation.

Obviously he knows that he can not repeal the legislation, The required time line makes it extremely difficult, the cost is extreme virtually unaffordable, he would be introducing a debt which would insure more deficits.

He would be crazy to do what he is saying well it least it would be consistant.

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