Australian Politics Forum - "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM

Dnarever

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #150 - Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:31pm

matty wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:11pm:

Hmmm, I thought that he took the GST straight to the 1998 election, after changing his mind.

In order to change your mind you need to have a different view at some point?

This can not be said about Howard and the GST - he was always a supporter and very clearly never changed his mind.

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matty

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #151 - Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:34pm

Dnarever wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:31pm:

matty wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:11pm:

Hmmm, I thought that he took the GST straight to the 1998 election, after changing his mind.

In order to change your mind you need to have a different view at some point?

This can not be said about Howard and the GST - he was always a supporter and very clearly never changed his mind.

That is neither here nor there, and I am not going to get into assuming what Mr Howard thought at various points, of which neither of us has any proof.

All to which it comes, at the end of the day, is that in:

1996 - he promised no GST and was elected.
1998 - he promised a GST and was re-elected.

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BILL SHORTEN WILL NEVER BE PM!!!!

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Dnarever

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #152 - Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:38pm

matty wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:34pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:31pm:

matty wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:11pm:

Hmmm, I thought that he took the GST straight to the 1998 election, after changing his mind.

In order to change your mind you need to have a different view at some point?

This can not be said about Howard and the GST - he was always a supporter and very clearly never changed his mind.

That is neither here nor there, and I am not going to get into assuming what Mr Howard thought at various points, of which neither of us has any proof.

All to which it comes, at the end of the day, is that in:

1996 - he promised no GST and was elected.
1998 - he promised a GST and was re-elected.

In 1996 he promised many times to never ever introduce a GST - he clearly did not keep that promise.

In 1998 he took a lie to the election.

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matty

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #153 - Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:50pm

Dnarever wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:38pm:

matty wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:34pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:31pm:

matty wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:11pm:

Hmmm, I thought that he took the GST straight to the 1998 election, after changing his mind.

In order to change your mind you need to have a different view at some point?

This can not be said about Howard and the GST - he was always a supporter and very clearly never changed his mind.

That is neither here nor there, and I am not going to get into assuming what Mr Howard thought at various points, of which neither of us has any proof.

All to which it comes, at the end of the day, is that in:

1996 - he promised no GST and was elected.
1998 - he promised a GST and was re-elected.

In 1996 he promised many times to never ever introduce a GST - he clearly did not keep that promise.

In 1998 he took a lie to the election.

Did he introduce it before or after being elected?

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BILL SHORTEN WILL NEVER BE PM!!!!

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falah

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #154 - Jun 14^th, 2012 at 9:38pm

Dnarever wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:38pm:

matty wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:34pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:31pm:

matty wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:11pm:

Hmmm, I thought that he took the GST straight to the 1998 election, after changing his mind.

In order to change your mind you need to have a different view at some point?

This can not be said about Howard and the GST - he was always a supporter and very clearly never changed his mind.

That is neither here nor there, and I am not going to get into assuming what Mr Howard thought at various points, of which neither of us has any proof.

All to which it comes, at the end of the day, is that in:

1996 - he promised no GST and was elected.
1998 - he promised a GST and was re-elected.

In 1996 he promised many times to never ever introduce a GST - he clearly did not keep that promise.

In 1998 he took a lie to the election.

If you look at modern Australian federal and state political history, you will find that usually when a government gains power it will win the next election. John Howard calculated that as long as he won the 1996 election he would win the following election. Therefore the strategy is to lie in 1996 in order to gain power, whatever happens after that doesn't matter.

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matty

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #155 - Jun 14^th, 2012 at 9:42pm

falah wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 9:38pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:38pm:

matty wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:34pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:31pm:

matty wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:11pm:

Hmmm, I thought that he took the GST straight to the 1998 election, after changing his mind.

In order to change your mind you need to have a different view at some point?

This can not be said about Howard and the GST - he was always a supporter and very clearly never changed his mind.

That is neither here nor there, and I am not going to get into assuming what Mr Howard thought at various points, of which neither of us has any proof.

All to which it comes, at the end of the day, is that in:

1996 - he promised no GST and was elected.
1998 - he promised a GST and was re-elected.

In 1996 he promised many times to never ever introduce a GST - he clearly did not keep that promise.

In 1998 he took a lie to the election.

If you look at modern Australian federal and state political history, you will find that usually when a government gains power it will win the next election. John Howard calculated that as long as he won the 1996 election he would win the following election. Therefore the strategy is to lie in 1996 in order to gain power, whatever happens after that doesn't matter.

And your proof is...? If Australians didn't want the GST, then they should have voted for Labor in 1998. They had the chance to stop the GST. Gillard didn't allow us that chance.

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Dnarever

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #156 - Jun 14^th, 2012 at 10:24pm

matty wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 9:42pm:

falah wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 9:38pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:38pm:

matty wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:34pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:31pm:

matty wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:11pm:

Hmmm, I thought that he took the GST straight to the 1998 election, after changing his mind.

In order to change your mind you need to have a different view at some point?

This can not be said about Howard and the GST - he was always a supporter and very clearly never changed his mind.

That is neither here nor there, and I am not going to get into assuming what Mr Howard thought at various points, of which neither of us has any proof.

All to which it comes, at the end of the day, is that in:

1996 - he promised no GST and was elected.
1998 - he promised a GST and was re-elected.

In 1996 he promised many times to never ever introduce a GST - he clearly did not keep that promise.

In 1998 he took a lie to the election.

If you look at modern Australian federal and state political history, you will find that usually when a government gains power it will win the next election. John Howard calculated that as long as he won the 1996 election he would win the following election. Therefore the strategy is to lie in 1996 in order to gain power, whatever happens after that doesn't matter.

And your proof is...? If Australians didn't want the GST, then they should have voted for Labor in 1998. They had the chance to stop the GST. Gillard didn't allow us that chance.

Voters voted against the GST in the senate - until the Democrats turned 180 degrees on their election position the GST was dead and buried which was the intention of the voters and the only reason that the democrats no longer exist.

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longweekend58

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #157 - Jun 15^th, 2012 at 9:50am

Dnarever wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 7:16pm:

john_g wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 4:52pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 4:38pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 13^th, 2012 at 7:29pm:

[quote]you talk about holding govts accountable but only at elections as if there is no requirement for the govt to listen in between.

What else are you going to do in between elections? Whine about it on internet forums? Shoot someone? Sue the government over a broken election promise?

Quote:

I know you love the carbon tax, but mandates are matters of principle.

And election outcomes are matters of hundreds of principles.

Quote:

The ultimate ends of what you are talking about is govts doing absolutely anythign they can to get into power and then utterly ignoring them when there.

No Longy, you have it backwards. Political parties and even most independents are not out to get elected once. They are out to get elected over and over again.

Quote:

And now you are trying to say that if the elction campaign is fought substantially over the Carbon tax and Abbott wins a significant majority that that means nothing?

No Longy. Try sticking to what I actually say.

Quote:

you often talk about making our political system more accountable, yet your every post on the matter says the opposite.

Not if you respond to what my posts actually say rather than making up your own version instead.[/quote]

Im not making up my own version. You talk the talk of accountability but when the issue is the CT you say they did nothing wrong. How do you figure that? It is massively unpopular, was brought in after a election promise NOT to do it and now they are saying that no matter what the vote, they will ignore the people's wishes. On what planet is that being held to account? If you do not reject that behaviour then you are defacto supporting what they are doing which is the very opposite of representing us.

I liked workchoices. I opposed its introduction without electoral mandate. Why cant you both like the CT and recognise that it has no legitimate right to exist?

I didn't support Workchoices, but it doesn't compare to the carbon tax. Howard never said anything about it either way. Gillard explicitly promised that there would be no carbon tax. There's a world of difference.

Before the 2004 election Howard said in an interview when asked about IR that there was no plan for any major change.

and I presume you call that a lie while you defend Gillars carbon tax lie. Why dont you find a coherent, credible position on that?

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longweekend58

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #158 - Jun 15^th, 2012 at 9:52am

freediver wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 6:27pm:

Quote:

how about making them LISTEN in the first place! You do that by - as a community - demanding that they uphold their promises and that they listen to you. You start by demanding of MPs that they obey the conventions and long-standing practices of parliament.

And how do you do that? Whine about them on internet forums? Shoot someone? Sue the government over a broken election promise?

Quote:

do you really believe that people wigh up 100 issues before deciding to vote?

As individuals they weigh up the issues they are interested in. You only have to look around here to see the huge variety of issues that people think are important. The community as a whole weighs up hundreds of issues.

Quote:

Im not sure why you want to ignore this concept.

I am not ignoring it at all. I have been discussing it with you for a few pages.

Quote:

The concept of the mandate used to be understood, but now it seems to have evaporated.

I think you have a rose tinted view of history.

Quote:

try again FD.... govts will act with no interest in our wishes if we let them.

What makes you think I am suggesting we let them? You are still having trouble figuring out what I actually posted.

Quote:

Im not making up my own version.

Well it certainly isn't what I said. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else.

Quote:

You talk the talk of accountability but when the issue is the CT you say they did nothing wrong.

Here is a good example of you making stuff up rather than responding to what I actually post.

well how about you clear up the confusion and clearly articulate your position. Do you think the carbon tax shoudl be repealed as a matter of principle after a massive abbot win. Please dont obsfucate. Just answer it clearly and without qualification.

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longweekend58

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #159 - Jun 15^th, 2012 at 9:56am

Dnarever wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:28pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 13^th, 2012 at 1:59pm:

Well abbott just said on TV that if he repeals the carbon tax he wont repeal the compensation. Just as well cause that "compensation" wasnt compensation @ all it was something that would been done anyway. Doesnt matter. Abbott will never be PM so topic is moot.

SOB

Abbott has said that from the start but a number of his shadow ministers have backed away from that position.

It only makes it less likely that he will remove the fixed price.

He is really going to spend billions in compensation etc and remove the mechanism which pays for it, His financial black hole is already extensive without this.

Sorry but his rubbish is not believable.

He wants direct action which would cost ten times more for an equal result plus billions in compensation.

Obviously he knows that he can not repeal the legislation, The required time line makes it extremely difficult, the cost is extreme virtually unaffordable, he would be introducing a debt which would insure more deficits.

He would be crazy to do what he is saying well it least it would be consistant.

your belief that it cannot be repealed is just hysterical. there is no logic to it whatsoever. Removing the carbon tax impost itself is SIMPLE. the compensation system is more problemative but mainly poltiically rather than practically. But if Abbott can get publically announced REDUCTIONS in power cots and other CT affected prices then it will be quite simple.

They managed to repeal workchoices with relative ease. I dont see any bigger problem with a CT especially with a huge vote mandate for it.

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Dnarever

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #160 - Jun 15^th, 2012 at 10:16am

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 15^th, 2012 at 9:56am:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:28pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 13^th, 2012 at 1:59pm:

Well abbott just said on TV that if he repeals the carbon tax he wont repeal the compensation. Just as well cause that "compensation" wasnt compensation @ all it was something that would been done anyway. Doesnt matter. Abbott will never be PM so topic is moot.

SOB

Abbott has said that from the start but a number of his shadow ministers have backed away from that position.

It only makes it less likely that he will remove the fixed price.

He is really going to spend billions in compensation etc and remove the mechanism which pays for it, His financial black hole is already extensive without this.

Sorry but his rubbish is not believable.

He wants direct action which would cost ten times more for an equal result plus billions in compensation.

Obviously he knows that he can not repeal the legislation, The required time line makes it extremely difficult, the cost is extreme virtually unaffordable, he would be introducing a debt which would insure more deficits.

He would be crazy to do what he is saying well it least it would be consistant.

your belief that it cannot be repealed is just hysterical. there is no logic to it whatsoever. Removing the carbon tax impost itself is SIMPLE. the compensation system is more problemative but mainly poltiically rather than practically. But if Abbott can get publically announced REDUCTIONS in power cots and other CT affected prices then it will be quite simple.

They managed to repeal workchoices with relative ease. I dont see any bigger problem with a CT especially with a huge vote mandate for it.

Workchoices was replace with a new system.

The Liberals are saying something completely different.

If they were to go to the election with an alternate plan to replace the carbon credits scheme then that would be an entirely different matter. They would end up with a supportable mandate if elected.

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Maqqa

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #161 - Jun 15^th, 2012 at 10:22am

Dnarever wrote on Jun 15^th, 2012 at 10:16am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 15^th, 2012 at 9:56am:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:28pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 13^th, 2012 at 1:59pm:

Well abbott just said on TV that if he repeals the carbon tax he wont repeal the compensation. Just as well cause that "compensation" wasnt compensation @ all it was something that would been done anyway. Doesnt matter. Abbott will never be PM so topic is moot.

SOB

Abbott has said that from the start but a number of his shadow ministers have backed away from that position.

It only makes it less likely that he will remove the fixed price.

He is really going to spend billions in compensation etc and remove the mechanism which pays for it, His financial black hole is already extensive without this.

Sorry but his rubbish is not believable.

He wants direct action which would cost ten times more for an equal result plus billions in compensation.

Obviously he knows that he can not repeal the legislation, The required time line makes it extremely difficult, the cost is extreme virtually unaffordable, he would be introducing a debt which would insure more deficits.

He would be crazy to do what he is saying well it least it would be consistant.

your belief that it cannot be repealed is just hysterical. there is no logic to it whatsoever. Removing the carbon tax impost itself is SIMPLE. the compensation system is more problemative but mainly poltiically rather than practically. But if Abbott can get publically announced REDUCTIONS in power cots and other CT affected prices then it will be quite simple.

They managed to repeal workchoices with relative ease. I dont see any bigger problem with a CT especially with a huge vote mandate for it.

Workchoices was replace with a new system.

The Liberals are saying something completely different.

If they were to go to the election with an alternate plan to replace the carbon credits scheme then that would be an entirely different matter. They would end up with a supportable mandate if elected.

There's nothing to replace the carbon tax - therefore should be easier to get rid off!!!

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Dnarever

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #162 - Jun 15^th, 2012 at 10:23am

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 15^th, 2012 at 9:50am:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 7:16pm:

Before the 2004 election Howard said in an interview when asked about IR that there was no plan for any major change.

and I presume you call that a lie while you defend Gillars carbon tax lie. Why dont you find a coherent, credible position on that?

No I don't call it a lie - he believed it at the time unaware that he would control the senate and could do what ever he liked. His belief was that as for most of his terms the senate would be able to moderate his naturally extreme tendencies on IR. THe situation changed in his favour following the election, it is you definitions which would call him a liar over this.

It was dishonest in a similar manner to Gillards dishonesty but they both believed they were going to do what they said at the time.

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Maqqa

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #163 - Jun 15^th, 2012 at 10:28am

Dnarever wrote on Jun 15^th, 2012 at 10:23am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 15^th, 2012 at 9:50am:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 7:16pm:

Before the 2004 election Howard said in an interview when asked about IR that there was no plan for any major change.

and I presume you call that a lie while you defend Gillars carbon tax lie. Why dont you find a coherent, credible position on that?

No I don't call it a lie - he believed it at the time unaware that he would control the senate and could do what ever he liked. His belief was that as for most of his terms the senate would be able to moderate his naturally extreme tendencies on IR. THe situation changed in his favour following the election, it is you definitions which would call him a liar over this.

It was dishonest in a similar manner to Gillards dishonesty but they both believed they were going to do what they said at the time.

So Howard can't implemented any policies that has not been announced during an election? If he does then it's exactly the same as Gillard's "There will be no carbon tax under a government I lead"???

that's your logic?

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Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number

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Dnarever

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #164 - Jun 15^th, 2012 at 10:39am

Maqqa wrote on Jun 15^th, 2012 at 10:28am:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 15^th, 2012 at 10:23am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 15^th, 2012 at 9:50am:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 7:16pm:

Before the 2004 election Howard said in an interview when asked about IR that there was no plan for any major change.

and I presume you call that a lie while you defend Gillars carbon tax lie. Why dont you find a coherent, credible position on that?

No I don't call it a lie - he believed it at the time unaware that he would control the senate and could do what ever he liked. His belief was that as for most of his terms the senate would be able to moderate his naturally extreme tendencies on IR. THe situation changed in his favour following the election, it is you definitions which would call him a liar over this.

It was dishonest in a similar manner to Gillards dishonesty but they both believed they were going to do what they said at the time.

So Howard can't implemented any policies that has not been announced during an election? If he does then it's exactly the same as Gillard's "There will be no carbon tax under a government I lead"???

that's your logic?

Howard said there would be no major change to IR and Gillard said no Carbon tax?

Howard also said:

He would never ever introduce a GST - he did, Children were thrown overboard - it was rubbish, That Iraq had WMD's - they didn't, Interest rates will always be lower - well not true, He knew nothing about AWB - ho ho ho, Knew nothing about interrogation techniques in Abu Prison - it was questioning they knew all about.

Well the list of things Mr Howard said which were not true is almost endless

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