Australian Politics Forum - "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM

longweekend58

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #165 - Jun 15^th, 2012 at 11:17am

Dnarever wrote on Jun 15^th, 2012 at 10:16am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 15^th, 2012 at 9:56am:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 8:28pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 13^th, 2012 at 1:59pm:

Well abbott just said on TV that if he repeals the carbon tax he wont repeal the compensation. Just as well cause that "compensation" wasnt compensation @ all it was something that would been done anyway. Doesnt matter. Abbott will never be PM so topic is moot.

SOB

Abbott has said that from the start but a number of his shadow ministers have backed away from that position.

It only makes it less likely that he will remove the fixed price.

He is really going to spend billions in compensation etc and remove the mechanism which pays for it, His financial black hole is already extensive without this.

Sorry but his rubbish is not believable.

He wants direct action which would cost ten times more for an equal result plus billions in compensation.

Obviously he knows that he can not repeal the legislation, The required time line makes it extremely difficult, the cost is extreme virtually unaffordable, he would be introducing a debt which would insure more deficits.

He would be crazy to do what he is saying well it least it would be consistant.

your belief that it cannot be repealed is just hysterical. there is no logic to it whatsoever. Removing the carbon tax impost itself is SIMPLE. the compensation system is more problemative but mainly poltiically rather than practically. But if Abbott can get publically announced REDUCTIONS in power cots and other CT affected prices then it will be quite simple.

They managed to repeal workchoices with relative ease. I dont see any bigger problem with a CT especially with a huge vote mandate for it.

Workchoices was replace with a new system.

The Liberals are saying something completely different.

If they were to go to the election with an alternate plan to replace the carbon credits scheme then that would be an entirely different matter. They would end up with a supportable mandate if elected.

a mandate to REMOVE the CT and put nothing in its place is still a mandate. You dont get to redefine the meaning of the term to suit your own beliefs. What exactly is your problem in accepting that the voters have an unequivocal right to express their wishes at the ballott box and have it upheld? Isnt that the ultimate experssion of democracy?

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #166 - Jun 15^th, 2012 at 11:19am

Dnarever wrote on Jun 15^th, 2012 at 10:39am:

Maqqa wrote on Jun 15^th, 2012 at 10:28am:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 15^th, 2012 at 10:23am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 15^th, 2012 at 9:50am:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 7:16pm:

Before the 2004 election Howard said in an interview when asked about IR that there was no plan for any major change.

and I presume you call that a lie while you defend Gillars carbon tax lie. Why dont you find a coherent, credible position on that?

No I don't call it a lie - he believed it at the time unaware that he would control the senate and could do what ever he liked. His belief was that as for most of his terms the senate would be able to moderate his naturally extreme tendencies on IR. THe situation changed in his favour following the election, it is you definitions which would call him a liar over this.

It was dishonest in a similar manner to Gillards dishonesty but they both believed they were going to do what they said at the time.

So Howard can't implemented any policies that has not been announced during an election? If he does then it's exactly the same as Gillard's "There will be no carbon tax under a government I lead"???

that's your logic?

Howard said there would be no major change to IR and Gillard said no Carbon tax?

Howard also said:

He would never ever introduce a GST - he did, Children were thrown overboard - it was rubbish, That Iraq had WMD's - they didn't, Interest rates will always be lower - well not true, He knew nothing about AWB - ho ho ho, Knew nothing about interrogation techniques in Abu Prison - it was questioning they knew all about.

Well the list of things Mr Howard said which were not true is almost endless

the significant difference is that most of us here said Howard was wrong to bring in Workchoices without electoral mandate and we supported it being repealed. But somehow what you actually call th SAME SITUATION should be treated differently. Using YOUR ARGUMENT the CT shoudl be repealed by Abbott. So why dont you think it should?

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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freediver

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #167 - Jun 15^th, 2012 at 2:02pm

Quote:

well how about you clear up the confusion and clearly articulate your position

I did that from the beginning. You are the only one having trouble with it. Just because I don't frame everything I post around criticising or complimenting the major parties does not mean it is not clear.

Quote:

Do you think the carbon tax shoudl be repealed as a matter of principle after a massive abbot win.

Sure, if he actually has a massive win on the back of opposition to the carbon tax, then Labor won't be able to stop him, though there would be plenty of Liberal MPs who might get in his way, but that would be unlikely if the win is big enough. In practice though, most victories are narrowly on either side of the 50% mark, and that is after preference distribution. It is rare for a single party to get over 50% of first preferences. Even if they did, it is a stretch to equate an election with a single issue referendum as so many simple minded people like to do. Abbott would still be left with a fairly diabolical decision on what to replace it with.

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longweekend58

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #168 - Jun 15^th, 2012 at 3:08pm

freediver wrote on Jun 15^th, 2012 at 2:02pm:

Quote:

well how about you clear up the confusion and clearly articulate your position

I did that from the beginning. You are the only one having trouble with it. Just because I don't frame everything I post around criticising or complimenting the major parties does not mean it is not clear.

Quote:

Do you think the carbon tax shoudl be repealed as a matter of principle after a massive abbot win.

Sure, if he actually has a massive win on the back of opposition to the carbon tax, then Labor won't be able to stop him, though there would be plenty of Liberal MPs who might get in his way, but that would be unlikely if the win is big enough. In practice though, most victories are narrowly on either side of the 50% mark, and that is after preference distribution. It is rare for a single party to get over 50% of first preferences. Even if they did, it is a stretch to equate an election with a single issue referendum as so many simple minded people like to do. Abbott would still be left with a fairly diabolical decision on what to replace it with.

so your defintion of a mandate is a result such that a mandate becomes unnecessary? Wow, that is close to the cleverest yet most pointless definitino of a mandate yet. You keep saying that Abbott has to replace the CT with something? why should he?

The mandate is a complex and difficult concept. Your understanding of it feels eerlily similar to a primary school argument. all you have done is sya that a mandate never exists and that Workchoices ws entirely valid. Congratulations on trying to hold the CT and your principles in the same hand and dropping both.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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freediver

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #169 - Jun 16^th, 2012 at 10:52am

Quote:

so your defintion of a mandate is a result such that a mandate becomes unnecessary?

No. As I explained before, if they have a genuine mandate, even without control of both houses, they can back labour into a corner on the issue. It happens all the time, but only with real mandates, not imaginary ones.

Quote:

You keep saying that Abbott has to replace the CT with something?

Sure, both major parties have had policies of action on climate change for several election cycles. Even Abbott does, though it is hard to trust him on that.

Quote:

why should he?

Because he promised? Or do Liberal party promises not count? Perhaps it will turn out to be a non-core promise.

Quote:

The mandate is a complex and difficult concept. Your understanding of it feels eerlily similar to a primary school argument.

You are the one trying to oversimplify it.

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Dnarever

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #170 - Jun 16^th, 2012 at 11:19am

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 15^th, 2012 at 11:19am:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 15^th, 2012 at 10:39am:

Maqqa wrote on Jun 15^th, 2012 at 10:28am:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 15^th, 2012 at 10:23am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 15^th, 2012 at 9:50am:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 7:16pm:

Before the 2004 election Howard said in an interview when asked about IR that there was no plan for any major change.

and I presume you call that a lie while you defend Gillars carbon tax lie. Why dont you find a coherent, credible position on that?

No I don't call it a lie - he believed it at the time unaware that he would control the senate and could do what ever he liked. His belief was that as for most of his terms the senate would be able to moderate his naturally extreme tendencies on IR. THe situation changed in his favour following the election, it is you definitions which would call him a liar over this.

It was dishonest in a similar manner to Gillards dishonesty but they both believed they were going to do what they said at the time.

So Howard can't implemented any policies that has not been announced during an election? If he does then it's exactly the same as Gillard's "There will be no carbon tax under a government I lead"???

that's your logic?

Howard said there would be no major change to IR and Gillard said no Carbon tax?

Howard also said:

He would never ever introduce a GST - he did, Children were thrown overboard - it was rubbish, That Iraq had WMD's - they didn't, Interest rates will always be lower - well not true, He knew nothing about AWB - ho ho ho, Knew nothing about interrogation techniques in Abu Prison - it was questioning they knew all about.

Well the list of things Mr Howard said which were not true is almost endless

the significant difference is that most of us here said Howard was wrong to bring in Workchoices without electoral mandate and we supported it being repealed. But somehow what you actually call th SAME SITUATION should be treated differently. Using YOUR ARGUMENT the CT shoudl be repealed by Abbott. So why dont you think it should?

You do understand that the Liberals voted against the fair work bill?

After the 2007 election fought on workchoices the liberals voted against the mandate in the same manner that you now consider to be unconscionable.

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Maqqa

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #171 - Jun 16^th, 2012 at 11:35am

Dnarever wrote on Jun 16^th, 2012 at 11:19am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 15^th, 2012 at 11:19am:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 15^th, 2012 at 10:39am:

Maqqa wrote on Jun 15^th, 2012 at 10:28am:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 15^th, 2012 at 10:23am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 15^th, 2012 at 9:50am:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 14^th, 2012 at 7:16pm:

Before the 2004 election Howard said in an interview when asked about IR that there was no plan for any major change.

and I presume you call that a lie while you defend Gillars carbon tax lie. Why dont you find a coherent, credible position on that?

No I don't call it a lie - he believed it at the time unaware that he would control the senate and could do what ever he liked. His belief was that as for most of his terms the senate would be able to moderate his naturally extreme tendencies on IR. THe situation changed in his favour following the election, it is you definitions which would call him a liar over this.

It was dishonest in a similar manner to Gillards dishonesty but they both believed they were going to do what they said at the time.

So Howard can't implemented any policies that has not been announced during an election? If he does then it's exactly the same as Gillard's "There will be no carbon tax under a government I lead"???

that's your logic?

Howard said there would be no major change to IR and Gillard said no Carbon tax?

Howard also said:

He would never ever introduce a GST - he did, Children were thrown overboard - it was rubbish, That Iraq had WMD's - they didn't, Interest rates will always be lower - well not true, He knew nothing about AWB - ho ho ho, Knew nothing about interrogation techniques in Abu Prison - it was questioning they knew all about.

Well the list of things Mr Howard said which were not true is almost endless

the significant difference is that most of us here said Howard was wrong to bring in Workchoices without electoral mandate and we supported it being repealed. But somehow what you actually call th SAME SITUATION should be treated differently. Using YOUR ARGUMENT the CT shoudl be repealed by Abbott. So why dont you think it should?

You do understand that the Liberals voted against the fair work bill?

After the 2007 election fought on workchoices the liberals voted against the mandate in the same manner that you now consider to be unconscionable.

It seems this so called "vote against" came down to the definition of of Small Business - Labor wants 15 and the LIBs wanted 25

http://www.news.com.au/work-choices-finally-buried/story-0-1225699503869

Senator Fielding had relented on his opposition to Labor's small business definition, lowering his demand that it be set a 20 full-time staff while Labor stuck to its policy of 15 or fewer employees.

The Opposition had dealt themselves out of the negotiations by sticking to its definition of 25 full-time staff while independent senator Nick Xenophon kept to his preference for 20

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Maqqa Gold Member Offline 14% - that low?! Posts: 16000	Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM Reply #172 - Jun 16^th, 2012 at 11:39am The FWA Bill went through with over 200+ amendments The abolition of the Carbon Tax will have no amendments - it will be abolished
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Dnarever

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #173 - Jun 16^th, 2012 at 11:41am

Maqqa wrote on Jun 16^th, 2012 at 11:35am:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 16^th, 2012 at 11:19am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 15^th, 2012 at 11:19am:

the significant difference is that most of us here said Howard was wrong to bring in Workchoices without electoral mandate and we supported it being repealed. But somehow what you actually call th SAME SITUATION should be treated differently. Using YOUR ARGUMENT the CT shoudl be repealed by Abbott. So why dont you think it should?

You do understand that the Liberals voted against the fair work bill?

After the 2007 election fought on workchoices the liberals voted against the mandate in the same manner that you now consider to be unconscionable.

It seems this so called "vote against" came down to the definition of of Small Business - Labor wants 15 and the LIBs wanted 25

http://www.news.com.au/work-choices-finally-buried/story-0-1225699503869

Senator Fielding had relented on his opposition to Labor's small business definition, lowering his demand that it be set a 20 full-time staff while Labor stuck to its policy of 15 or fewer employees.

The Opposition had dealt themselves out of the negotiations by sticking to its definition of 25 full-time staff while independent senator Nick Xenophon kept to his preference for 20

Yes that was the result - in the end the mandate meant nothing to the Liberals.

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Dnarever

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #174 - Jun 16^th, 2012 at 11:46am

Maqqa wrote on Jun 16^th, 2012 at 11:39am:

The FWA Bill went through with over 200+ amendments

The abolition of the Carbon Tax will have no amendments - it will be abolished

You seem to know a lot of things which I would think are very doubtful and not consistant with what the Liberals are saying.

If they abolish the carbon price legislation they would also be abolishing the compensation package which is part of the legislation, the Liberals are saying they will not do that. Maybe it is not quite as easy as you think - Back to the old drawing board fella.

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longweekend58

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #175 - Jun 16^th, 2012 at 5:19pm

Dnarever wrote on Jun 16^th, 2012 at 11:46am:

Maqqa wrote on Jun 16^th, 2012 at 11:39am:

The FWA Bill went through with over 200+ amendments

The abolition of the Carbon Tax will have no amendments - it will be abolished

You seem to know a lot of things which I would think are very doubtful and not consistant with what the Liberals are saying.

If they abolish the carbon price legislation they would also be abolishing the compensation package which is part of the legislation, the Liberals are saying they will not do that. Maybe it is not quite as easy as you think - Back to the old drawing board fella.

I still dont know why you think it is so hard to remove legislation. was removing workchoices that hard? it is after all JUST legislation. The way you atlk youd think no legislation has ever been successflly repealed before.

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Dnarever

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #176 - Jun 16^th, 2012 at 5:32pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 16^th, 2012 at 5:19pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 16^th, 2012 at 11:46am:

Maqqa wrote on Jun 16^th, 2012 at 11:39am:

The FWA Bill went through with over 200+ amendments

The abolition of the Carbon Tax will have no amendments - it will be abolished

You seem to know a lot of things which I would think are very doubtful and not consistant with what the Liberals are saying.

If they abolish the carbon price legislation they would also be abolishing the compensation package which is part of the legislation, the Liberals are saying they will not do that. Maybe it is not quite as easy as you think - Back to the old drawing board fella.

I still dont know why you think it is so hard to remove legislation. was removing workchoices that hard? it is after all JUST legislation. The way you atlk youd think no legislation has ever been successflly repealed before.

I was commenting on what Macca said - the Liberals are clearly saying that its not what they will do.

They want to remove parts of the Legislation which is obviously more difficult than to just remove the lot.

They talk about a DD election - again not easy but difficult.

Then there is the additional financial black hole they will be creating by doing it, leave the compensation but remove the policy which pays for it - it comes out measured in $ Billions on top of all their other uncosted ideas. Again difficult.

Then they may want to start their own direct action plan which again costs in the $Billions and is also unfunded. A billion dollars just for their carbon projects fund paid by the taxpayer. I doubt that finding billions extra is going to be easy.

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freediver

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #177 - Jun 16^th, 2012 at 6:10pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 16^th, 2012 at 5:19pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 16^th, 2012 at 11:46am:

Maqqa wrote on Jun 16^th, 2012 at 11:39am:

The FWA Bill went through with over 200+ amendments

The abolition of the Carbon Tax will have no amendments - it will be abolished

You seem to know a lot of things which I would think are very doubtful and not consistant with what the Liberals are saying.

If they abolish the carbon price legislation they would also be abolishing the compensation package which is part of the legislation, the Liberals are saying they will not do that. Maybe it is not quite as easy as you think - Back to the old drawing board fella.

I still dont know why you think it is so hard to remove legislation. was removing workchoices that hard? it is after all JUST legislation. The way you atlk youd think no legislation has ever been successflly repealed before.

Longy it is the consequences of removing it that make it difficult. Abbott seems to be in a good position now while it is all talk. Wait till we are closer to the election and he has to come up with an actual plan.

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Gist

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #178 - Jun 16^th, 2012 at 6:17pm

Remove all the income and keep all the expenses? Yeah, right, as if... It's obvious that they'd suddenly decide it can't be done - too expensive, blame it on the previous government, the weather, the poor alignment of the planets, etc, etc, etc. And then backpedal all the way to the next election thereby also negating any need for some mythical double dissolution.

But that's all irrelevant now that Temporary Tony's days as leader are coming to an end. The question is - what will the NEXT leader do?

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Maqqa

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #179 - Jun 16^th, 2012 at 7:07pm

freediver wrote on Jun 16^th, 2012 at 6:10pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 16^th, 2012 at 5:19pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 16^th, 2012 at 11:46am:

Maqqa wrote on Jun 16^th, 2012 at 11:39am:

The FWA Bill went through with over 200+ amendments

The abolition of the Carbon Tax will have no amendments - it will be abolished

You seem to know a lot of things which I would think are very doubtful and not consistant with what the Liberals are saying.

If they abolish the carbon price legislation they would also be abolishing the compensation package which is part of the legislation, the Liberals are saying they will not do that. Maybe it is not quite as easy as you think - Back to the old drawing board fella.

I still dont know why you think it is so hard to remove legislation. was removing workchoices that hard? it is after all JUST legislation. The way you atlk youd think no legislation has ever been successflly repealed before.

Longy it is the consequences of removing it that make it difficult. Abbott seems to be in a good position now while it is all talk. Wait till we are closer to the election and he has to come up with an actual plan.

Workchoices was implemented in 2005 and repealed in 2009

Carbon Tax will be implemented in July 2012 - if it takes 4 years then so be it!

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Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number

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