Australian Politics Forum - "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM

Gist

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #60 - Jun 10^th, 2012 at 7:13pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 7:09pm:

Gist wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 7:06pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 7:03pm:

Gist wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 6:49pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 6:42pm:

We have seen cases of the ACCC already prosecuting companies for gouging customers over the carbon tax. I doubt there would be many cases of greed - most people would just be glad to be rid of the damn tax!

Have we? Name two.

I read an article about it this morning - one was something to do with a wedding and guests being charged an extra $5 per head because of the carbon tax. Another I cannot remember and can't find the article.

Well assuming that first one is true then they weren't being charged because of any carbon tax were they? Because it doesn't exist yet. So they were being ripped off by a greedy merchant.

What were you saying about people not being greedy?

this is also Gillards fault. She has provded the scam merchants with a new chance to ripoff people. And after all, her marketing of the CT has been as abysmal as pretty much everyhing else she has done.

A one-off from the sounds of things. When it becomes COMMONPLACE under the Lieberal regime, WHAT IS TONY GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?

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Armchair_Politician

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #61 - Jun 10^th, 2012 at 7:18pm

Gist wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 7:06pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 7:03pm:

Gist wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 6:49pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 6:42pm:

We have seen cases of the ACCC already prosecuting companies for gouging customers over the carbon tax. I doubt there would be many cases of greed - most people would just be glad to be rid of the damn tax!

Have we? Name two.

I read an article about it this morning - one was something to do with a wedding and guests being charged an extra $5 per head because of the carbon tax. Another I cannot remember and can't find the article.

Well assuming that first one is true then they weren't being charged because of any carbon tax were they? Because it doesn't exist yet. So they were being ripped off by a greedy merchant.

What were you saying about people not being greedy?

Actually, they were - they were told the $5 charge is due to the carbon tax and the wedding wasn't until later this year - AFTER the introduction of the carbon tax on July 1. I never said people won't be greedy - I said the ACCC will come down hard on the few who are.

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #62 - Jun 10^th, 2012 at 7:31pm

Any common sense look at the prospect of removing this legislation would have to conclude it very unlikely for a number of very good reasons.

It would be very difficult to remove structurally without control of both houses of parliament which looks to be unlikely.

The prospect of a DD election I would think equally unlikely, the time model shows the earliest possible would be mid 2014 but late 2014 more probable and early 2015 by far the most likely. Up to almost 3 years after the fixed price is implemented before the first step of legislation could be passed.

Would Tnoy go to a DD in 2015? The probability is no way jose.

By 2015 with the fixed price in play for 3 years and no longer the prospect of fear and smear having an impact and obviously the world still on its axis the prospect of significant emotional support is very low.

It looks at this time like the Liberals may expect a huge sweeping victory in 2013 given 15 months of elector discontent with the liberals the likelihood of them risking seats on a DD I would think to be not even a remote possibility where they would know up front they were going to lose seats. A bounce back would be an almost certainty.

Then as has been discussed there is the huge problem about how to do it, where all we see is huge financial black holes in costing for no benefit. Will they go to a DD with an un-costed policy which is unaffordable will hurt people and still leave the carbon problem to be dealt with and paid for?

Are the Liberals that stupid? Well I'm not real sure but I hope so.

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Armchair_Politician

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #63 - Jun 10^th, 2012 at 7:35pm

Dnarever wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 7:31pm:

Any common sense look at the prospect of removing this legislation would have to conclude it very unlikely for a number of very good reasons.

It would be very difficult to remove structurally without control of both houses of parliament which looks to be unlikely.

The prospect of a DD election I would think equally unlikely, the time model shows the earliest possible would be mid 2014 but late 2014 more probable and early 2015 by far the most likely. Up to almost 3 years after the fixed price is implemented before the first step of legislation could be passed.

Would Tnoy go to a DD in 2015? The probability is no way jose.

By 2015 with the fixed price in play for 3 years and no longer the prospect of fear and smear having an impact and obviously the world still on its axis the prospect of significant emotional support is very low.

It looks at this time like the Liberals may expect a huge sweeping victory in 2013 given 15 months of elector discontent with the liberals the likelihood of them risking seats on a DD I would think to be not even a remote possibility where they would know up front they were going to lose seats. A bounce back would be an almost certainty.

Then as has been discussed there is the huge problem about how to do it, where all we see is huge financial black holes in costing for no benefit. Will they go to a DD with an un-costed policy which is unaffordable will hurt people and still leave the carbon problem to be dealt with and paid for?

Are the Liberals that stupid? Well I'm not real sure but I hope so.

Yeah, you just keep on wishing for that. You poor thing! Grin

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corporate_whitey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 8896 Archivist	Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM Reply #64 - Jun 10^th, 2012 at 7:59pm We will never allow the Government to get away with implementing this lying tax for the faceless international bankers that will see ownership of all of our resources transferred off shore to thugs.
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Gist

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #65 - Jun 10^th, 2012 at 8:00pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 7:35pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 7:31pm:

Any common sense look at the prospect of removing this legislation would have to conclude it very unlikely for a number of very good reasons.

It would be very difficult to remove structurally without control of both houses of parliament which looks to be unlikely.

The prospect of a DD election I would think equally unlikely, the time model shows the earliest possible would be mid 2014 but late 2014 more probable and early 2015 by far the most likely. Up to almost 3 years after the fixed price is implemented before the first step of legislation could be passed.

Would Tnoy go to a DD in 2015? The probability is no way jose.

By 2015 with the fixed price in play for 3 years and no longer the prospect of fear and smear having an impact and obviously the world still on its axis the prospect of significant emotional support is very low.

It looks at this time like the Liberals may expect a huge sweeping victory in 2013 given 15 months of elector discontent with the liberals the likelihood of them risking seats on a DD I would think to be not even a remote possibility where they would know up front they were going to lose seats. A bounce back would be an almost certainty.

Then as has been discussed there is the huge problem about how to do it, where all we see is huge financial black holes in costing for no benefit. Will they go to a DD with an un-costed policy which is unaffordable will hurt people and still leave the carbon problem to be dealt with and paid for?

Are the Liberals that stupid? Well I'm not real sure but I hope so.

Yeah, you just keep on wishing for that. You poor thing! Grin

So in other words, you don't have a clue either? You are happy to sit there fat, dumb, and happy and trust that somehow, someone will make the bad go away, just like longloser does.

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Maqqa

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #66 - Jun 10^th, 2012 at 8:09pm

Dnarever wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 7:31pm:

Any common sense look at the prospect of removing this legislation would have to conclude it very unlikely for a number of very good reasons.

It would be very difficult to remove structurally without control of both houses of parliament which looks to be unlikely.

The prospect of a DD election I would think equally unlikely, the time model shows the earliest possible would be mid 2014 but late 2014 more probable and early 2015 by far the most likely. Up to almost 3 years after the fixed price is implemented before the first step of legislation could be passed.

Would Tnoy go to a DD in 2015? The probability is no way jose.

By 2015 with the fixed price in play for 3 years and no longer the prospect of fear and smear having an impact and obviously the world still on its axis the prospect of significant emotional support is very low.

It looks at this time like the Liberals may expect a huge sweeping victory in 2013 given 15 months of elector discontent with the liberals the likelihood of them risking seats on a DD I would think to be not even a remote possibility where they would know up front they were going to lose seats. A bounce back would be an almost certainty.

Then as has been discussed there is the huge problem about how to do it, where all we see is huge financial black holes in costing for no benefit. Will they go to a DD with an un-costed policy which is unaffordable will hurt people and still leave the carbon problem to be dealt with and paid for?

Are the Liberals that stupid? Well I'm not real sure but I hope so.

Lets assume what you say is correct - this can only benefit the LIBs

Right now 63% reject the carbon tax and 57% wants it repealed.

Therefore Abbott can take as long as he wants

Labor was very patience on the Thomson investigation - and that took 4 years.

So if the repeal takes 4 years - so be it!

Labor's Carbon Tax is the LIBs' Workchoices.

The LIBs stuck by Workchoices right up to the election results in 2007 so I don't expect Labor to be any different

But I can't see Labor being that stupid to hang onto the Carbon Tax if it's hit by 57/43 TPP results

Lefties claimed a whitewash in 2007 when he won by 53/47

If Labor lose by 57/43 - any sane Labor MP who survived the slaughter would be stupid to hang onto the Carbon Tax

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longweekend58

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #67 - Jun 10^th, 2012 at 8:17pm

Dnarever wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 7:31pm:

Any common sense look at the prospect of removing this legislation would have to conclude it very unlikely for a number of very good reasons.

It would be very difficult to remove structurally without control of both houses of parliament which looks to be unlikely.

The prospect of a DD election I would think equally unlikely, the time model shows the earliest possible would be mid 2014 but late 2014 more probable and early 2015 by far the most likely. Up to almost 3 years after the fixed price is implemented before the first step of legislation could be passed.

Would Tnoy go to a DD in 2015? The probability is no way jose.

By 2015 with the fixed price in play for 3 years and no longer the prospect of fear and smear having an impact and obviously the world still on its axis the prospect of significant emotional support is very low.

It looks at this time like the Liberals may expect a huge sweeping victory in 2013 given 15 months of elector discontent with the liberals the likelihood of them risking seats on a DD I would think to be not even a remote possibility where they would know up front they were going to lose seats. A bounce back would be an almost certainty.

Then as has been discussed there is the huge problem about how to do it, where all we see is huge financial black holes in costing for no benefit. Will they go to a DD with an un-costed policy which is unaffordable will hurt people and still leave the carbon problem to be dealt with and paid for?

Are the Liberals that stupid? Well I'm not real sure but I hope so.

so your considered opinion is that After Abbott wins a massive victory entirely based on hatred of a Carbon Tax that you think it is ethical for Labor to then refuse to support the biggest mandate in history??? THATS IT?? Do you wonder why we think the ALP is such an amoral and ethics-free party? If the ALP had any sense of morality and support for the principles of parliamentary democracy it would support the repeal just as it demanded the coalition support the WorkChoices repeal - which is what it did.

You entire position is pretty much based on what is the most likely way of subverting the clearly revealed wish of the voters? It is this level of intransigence which may be what causes the senate vote to go so far as to give Abbott a majority in his own right - either in the next election or the one following.

Let's face it. There isnt a single political strategy that Gillard has employed that has been anything but a truly stellar failure. Why do you think a refusal to countenance supporting a mandated repeal will play any better with the voters than every other strategy? with the Carbon tax the single issue that voters despise her for most do you not think the ALPs refusal to repeal it in the senate could bakfire in devastating manner?

the DD could still occur earlier than you seem to believe but the true destruction of the ALP could happen if they refuse to support what the voters want. An early election in 2014 for example could see senate control return to the coalition and the lower house see a 100+ seat majority. And all of this will be to blame for a carbon tax that has no legitimacy, no purpose and becomes a lightening rod for all those that belive govt refuses to listen. And the ALP could pay so hard for this foolishness that it wil take a generation to recover.

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corporate_whitey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 8896 Archivist	Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM Reply #68 - Jun 10^th, 2012 at 8:30pm The carbon tax is a scam, it will not stand, we will not allow Gillard and the Greens to give our nation and its resources to the faceless international banks. They will go to prison for this.
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Dnarever

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #69 - Jun 10^th, 2012 at 8:33pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 8:17pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 7:31pm:

Any common sense look at the prospect of removing this legislation would have to conclude it very unlikely for a number of very good reasons.

It would be very difficult to remove structurally without control of both houses of parliament which looks to be unlikely.

The prospect of a DD election I would think equally unlikely, the time model shows the earliest possible would be mid 2014 but late 2014 more probable and early 2015 by far the most likely. Up to almost 3 years after the fixed price is implemented before the first step of legislation could be passed.

Would Tnoy go to a DD in 2015? The probability is no way jose.

By 2015 with the fixed price in play for 3 years and no longer the prospect of fear and smear having an impact and obviously the world still on its axis the prospect of significant emotional support is very low.

It looks at this time like the Liberals may expect a huge sweeping victory in 2013 given 15 months of elector discontent with the liberals the likelihood of them risking seats on a DD I would think to be not even a remote possibility where they would know up front they were going to lose seats. A bounce back would be an almost certainty.

Then as has been discussed there is the huge problem about how to do it, where all we see is huge financial black holes in costing for no benefit. Will they go to a DD with an un-costed policy which is unaffordable will hurt people and still leave the carbon problem to be dealt with and paid for?

Are the Liberals that stupid? Well I'm not real sure but I hope so.

so your considered opinion is that After Abbott wins a massive victory entirely based on hatred of a Carbon Tax that you think it is ethical for Labor to then refuse to support the biggest mandate in history??? THATS IT?? Do you wonder why we think the ALP is such an amoral and ethics-free party? If the ALP had any sense of morality and support for the principles of parliamentary democracy it would support the repeal just as it demanded the coalition support the WorkChoices repeal - which is what it did.

You entire position is pretty much based on what is the most likely way of subverting the clearly revealed wish of the voters? It is this level of intransigence which may be what causes the senate vote to go so far as to give Abbott a majority in his own right - either in the next election or the one following.

Let's face it. There isnt a single political strategy that Gillard has employed that has been anything but a truly stellar failure. Why do you think a refusal to countenance supporting a mandated repeal will play any better with the voters than every other strategy? with the Carbon tax the single issue that voters despise her for most do you not think the ALPs refusal to repeal it in the senate could bakfire in devastating manner?

the DD could still occur earlier than you seem to believe but the true destruction of the ALP could happen if they refuse to support what the voters want. An early election in 2014 for example could see senate control return to the coalition and the lower house see a 100+ seat majority. And all of this will be to blame for a carbon tax that has no legitimacy, no purpose and becomes a lightening rod for all those that belive govt refuses to listen. And the ALP could pay so hard for this foolishness that it wil take a generation to recover.

Quote:

so your considered opinion is that After Abbott wins a massive victory entirely based on hatred of a Carbon Tax that you think it is ethical for Labor to then refuse to support the biggest mandate in history???

A huge mandate to take action on carbon dioxide was rejected by Tnoy Abbnott but that was no problem? The same thing is only an issue when its Labor ignoring the mandate apparently.

Quote:

An early election in 2014 for example could see senate control return to the coalition and the lower house see a 100+ seat majority

An early 2014 DD election would almost require Labor and the Greens to support the time table. Any delays modifications sent back re scheduled discussion days, discussion sent to senate committee etc all push the earliest available date further back.

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Gist

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #70 - Jun 10^th, 2012 at 8:34pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 8:17pm:

so your considered opinion is that After Abbott wins a massive victory entirely based on hatred of a Carbon Tax that you think it is ethical for Labor to then refuse to support the biggest mandate in history??? THATS IT?? Do you wonder why we think the ALP is such an amoral and ethics-free party? If the ALP had any sense of morality and support for the principles of parliamentary democracy it would support the repeal just as it demanded the coalition support the WorkChoices repeal - which is what it did.

Absolutely! The Labor party should take a leaf out of the Greens book and actually support what it stands for. If that means support for a carbon tax then it should vote in favour of a carbon tax and against removal of said tax. Under any circumstance.

If people don't like that position then they shouldn't vote for the party.

If people DO vote for the party then those people deserve for that position to be represented in parliament, just as they voted.

THAT'S known as ethics. Something of which it is clear you have absolutely NO KNOWLEDGE of.

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Armchair_Politician

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #71 - Jun 10^th, 2012 at 8:52pm

Gist wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 8:00pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 7:35pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 7:31pm:

Any common sense look at the prospect of removing this legislation would have to conclude it very unlikely for a number of very good reasons.

It would be very difficult to remove structurally without control of both houses of parliament which looks to be unlikely.

The prospect of a DD election I would think equally unlikely, the time model shows the earliest possible would be mid 2014 but late 2014 more probable and early 2015 by far the most likely. Up to almost 3 years after the fixed price is implemented before the first step of legislation could be passed.

Would Tnoy go to a DD in 2015? The probability is no way jose.

By 2015 with the fixed price in play for 3 years and no longer the prospect of fear and smear having an impact and obviously the world still on its axis the prospect of significant emotional support is very low.

It looks at this time like the Liberals may expect a huge sweeping victory in 2013 given 15 months of elector discontent with the liberals the likelihood of them risking seats on a DD I would think to be not even a remote possibility where they would know up front they were going to lose seats. A bounce back would be an almost certainty.

Then as has been discussed there is the huge problem about how to do it, where all we see is huge financial black holes in costing for no benefit. Will they go to a DD with an un-costed policy which is unaffordable will hurt people and still leave the carbon problem to be dealt with and paid for?

Are the Liberals that stupid? Well I'm not real sure but I hope so.

Yeah, you just keep on wishing for that. You poor thing! Grin

So in other words, you don't have a clue either? You are happy to sit there fat, dumb, and happy and trust that somehow, someone will make the bad go away, just like longloser does.

Firstly, I am not fat. I could use an extra 10kg or so, in fact. Secondly, my IQ well exceeds 100 - certainly not dumb. Thirdly, I am very happy in the knowledge that the end of the current government is just around the corner and with it, the carbon tax and mining tax and the waste and excess that has come with this government!

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John Smith

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #72 - Jun 10^th, 2012 at 8:54pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 6:11pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 10:21am:

____ wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 10:17am:

Maqqa wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 10:11am:

Nothing to discuss - the carbon tax will be repealed by the LIBs

63% of Australians rejects the Carbon Tax
57% of Australians want the LIBs to repeal it

So suck it up princess!!!

When will he repeal it.

How will he repeal it, since the majority of the senate will oppose it.

How much will Abbott pay in compensation to industry, and how will this compensation be funded?

And if he removes the carbon compensation, what of the carbon pricing in the economy ... how much will Abbott's action push up the cost of living pressures?

How much more expensive will electricity and food be because of Abbott's action of profiteering for the carbon lobby, for Lib's owner, Clive Palmer?

Don't wait for an answer green ... they don't have one because the reality is they don't really want to repeal it .... if they did they would have those answers all sorted by now ... they've had plenty of time

which one are you: DUMB or DUMBER or perhaps even DUMBERER. it has been explained hundreds of times the various options for a CT repeal.

Ok dumbest ... I'll explain it to you again ... it will never work .. what you explained is a hypothetical that will NEVER happen... ABBOTT will NEVER go to a DD , no matter how many times you repeat it

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Armchair_Politician

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Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM
Reply #73 - Jun 10^th, 2012 at 8:57pm

John Smith wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 8:54pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 6:11pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 10:21am:

____ wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 10:17am:

Maqqa wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 10:11am:

Nothing to discuss - the carbon tax will be repealed by the LIBs

63% of Australians rejects the Carbon Tax
57% of Australians want the LIBs to repeal it

So suck it up princess!!!

When will he repeal it.

How will he repeal it, since the majority of the senate will oppose it.

How much will Abbott pay in compensation to industry, and how will this compensation be funded?

And if he removes the carbon compensation, what of the carbon pricing in the economy ... how much will Abbott's action push up the cost of living pressures?

How much more expensive will electricity and food be because of Abbott's action of profiteering for the carbon lobby, for Lib's owner, Clive Palmer?

Don't wait for an answer green ... they don't have one because the reality is they don't really want to repeal it .... if they did they would have those answers all sorted by now ... they've had plenty of time

which one are you: DUMB or DUMBER or perhaps even DUMBERER. it has been explained hundreds of times the various options for a CT repeal.

Ok dumbest ... I'll explain it to you again ... it will never work .. what you explained is a hypothetical that will NEVER happen... ABBOTT will NEVER go to a DD , no matter how many times you repeat it

No matter how many times you repeat that limp argument of yours that Abbott can't/won't go to a DD, it's obvious it's what you HOPE for, not what you KNOW can/will happen.

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corporate_whitey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 8896 Archivist	Re: "Carbon Levy Will Never Be Repealed" PM Reply #74 - Jun 10^th, 2012 at 9:22pm Denial cant change the fact hat six months after the next election the carbon tax, the Greenx and the ALP will be toast.
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