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JC Denton

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Re: Stupidity
Reply #15 - Jun 10^th, 2012 at 7:57pm

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I think idiots know they are idiots.

That's the problem. They just might not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Quote:

Kruger and Dunning proposed that, for a given skill, incompetent people will:

tend to overestimate their own level of skill;
fail to recognize genuine skill in others;
fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy;
recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill, if they can be trained to substantially improve.

Point is, even though I am certain that it is impossible to get through to many morons, it is possible to get through to the lesser morons whom may pay attention to the greater morons unless non-morons are calling the greater morons morons. Not being allowed to call people retarded, not just their arguments, dampens awareness that anything else these people might say in the future, however superficially plausible, needs to be taken with a heavy dose of skepticism.

Calling people stupid is a valuable service.

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Soren

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Re: Stupidity
Reply #16 - Jun 10^th, 2012 at 8:05pm

JC Denton wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 7:57pm:

Quote:

I think idiots know they are idiots.

That's the problem. They just might not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Quote:

Kruger and Dunning proposed that, for a given skill, incompetent people will:

tend to overestimate their own level of skill;
fail to recognize genuine skill in others;
fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy;
recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill, if they can be trained to substantially improve.

Point is, even though I am certain that it is impossible to get through to many morons, it is possible to get through to the lesser morons whom may pay attention to the greater morons unless non-morons are calling the greater morons morons. Not being allowed to call people retarded, not just their arguments, dampens awareness that anything else these people might say in the future, however superficially plausible, needs to be taken with a heavy dose of skepticism.

Calling people stupid is a valuable service.

Indeed. But if you can't get through to them and you can't send them down the mines - what is to be done??

Treating them as if they were normal is a disservice to them and a disservice to normal people. What to do??

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Stupidity
Reply #17 - Jun 10^th, 2012 at 8:33pm

I maintain the faith that many of the people in question are young (early 20s) and will grow out of it in a few years. Most adolescents go through an emotionally driven rebellious stage. By the time they're nearing 30 though they should be able to keep their over sentimentalism in check and begin to reason. If not, I think stupidity may be permanent.

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JC Denton

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Re: Stupidity
Reply #18 - Jun 10^th, 2012 at 8:39pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 8:33pm:

I maintain the faith that many of the people in question are young (early 20s) and will grow out of it in a few years. Most adolescents go through an emotionally driven rebellious stage. By the time they're nearing 30 though they should be able to keep their over sentimentalism in check and begin to reason. If not, I think stupidity may be permanent.

nah, i used to buy into that argument too, but it's not really that true. i guess to some extent it is with the majority they never grow out of it. they may cut their hair and get jobs but the opinions still remain. most of the worst offenders here are boomers and many are pushing or close to 60.

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Gist

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Re: Stupidity
Reply #19 - Jun 10^th, 2012 at 8:43pm

Soren wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 7:47pm:

JC Denton wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 7:35pm:

i know i love talking sh!t - discussing why stupid people are stupid is the greatest topic of conversation possibly ever.

Thank you. I started this for all of us.

I think idiots know they are idiots. If they were really ignorant of it they would have been run over by a truck at age 7. They couldn't possibly go through life not knowing that they are not actually understanding anything going on around them.

That's the dilemma. How can they be idiots yet navigate through daily life?

Thanks Soren for demonstrating so ably that idiots are too stupid to understand they are idiots even when it is pointed out to them.

Of course, you're too fookin' thick to understand that but trust me, others will.

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"When our military goes to war it should be for purposes and objectives clearly in Australia’s interests, not merely because the Americans want some company" - Malcolm Fraser (2012 Whitlam Oration)

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muso

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Re: Stupidity
Reply #20 - Jun 10^th, 2012 at 9:29pm

Soren wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 1:44pm:

1. If someone says something stupid and you say, "Hey, that is stupid BS because ... xyz' - is that abuse?

No. As far as I'm concerned, that is perfectly acceptable according to the forum rules. You can call ideas stupid and explain why. Everybody has their stupid moments, but sometimes people whom we regard as stupid can occasionally understand something that others can't. I'll call it the Forrest Gump effect. Wink

Quote:

2. If someone says stupid things because he/she is stupid (ie says says stupid things as a matter of personal policy and outlook), and you say to him: 'you speak like that because you are stupid" - is that abuse?

Yes, but it's very mild, and (my personal stance) I wouldn't necessarily take any action on it. It's better to call ideas stupid, because (ahem) it's stupid to attack the person when you really should be attacking the idea.

Quote:

It seems to me to be a result of the feminisation of education and then social interaction and discourse. Everyone now must beat around the bush like girls. No spade is vre called a spade because direct, frank language is seen s too masculine (ie aggressive).. What's happening?

I'm all for calling a spade a spade. Explain why an idea is stupid and you'll be streets ahead. If somebody has obviously not even bothered to research a subject properly before making an inane superficial utterance, such lack of personal diligence should be corrected.

Quote:

I don't just mean on this forum but in the broader context. Some people should not be sheltered from the fact that they are idiots. As long as you tell them what was stupid and why in what they said or did, this should be seen as a valuable civic, manly virtue, not as abuse, not as bitching.

I have been called all sorts of things on this forum but I have never whined to the Mods. Why is it that only idiots whine to the mods? I am interested in the psychology of the whining idiots.

It goes deeper than that. I'm all for positive reinforcement, but there are times when we need to be totally frank about mediocrity and other matters.

For example: young people who think they are incredibly talented musicians (or dancers) . They may waste years of their lives thinking that they are actually quite good unless somebody tells them that they are totally crap. It's doing them a great service to tell them the truth, but it doesn't hurt to be a little bit subtle about it.

I've told you many times that your ideas on climate change were stupid, but I don't think you're stupid as such. .

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« Last Edit: Jun 10^th, 2012 at 9:49pm by muso »

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

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Soren

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Re: Stupidity
Reply #21 - Jun 10^th, 2012 at 10:04pm

Gist wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 8:43pm:

Soren wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 7:47pm:

JC Denton wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 7:35pm:

i know i love talking sh!t - discussing why stupid people are stupid is the greatest topic of conversation possibly ever.

Thank you. I started this for all of us.

I think idiots know they are idiots. If they were really ignorant of it they would have been run over by a truck at age 7. They couldn't possibly go through life not knowing that they are not actually understanding anything going on around them.

That's the dilemma. How can they be idiots yet navigate through daily life?

Thanks Soren for demonstrating so ably that idiots are too stupid to understand they are idiots even when it is pointed out to them.

Of course, you're too fookin' thick to understand that but trust me, others will.

Echoing me just makes you look really fooking retarded and abject, Git. Are you after that very impression? You are getting it, believe it or not.

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Soren

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Re: Stupidity
Reply #22 - Jun 10^th, 2012 at 10:14pm

muso wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 9:29pm:

It goes deeper than that. I'm all for positive reinforcement, but there are times when we need to be totally frank about mediocrity and other matters.

For example: young people who think they are incredibly talented musicians (or dancers) . They may waste years of their lives thinking that they are actually quite good unless somebody tells them that they are totally crap. It's doing them a great service to tell them the truth, but it doesn't hurt to be a little bit subtle about it.

I've told you many times that your ideas on climate change were stupid, but I don't think you're stupid as such. .

That's the area I am interested in: the space between the boot up the arse and subtlety.
Subtlety can work with people who have attained a certain degree of worldly wisdom, width and depth of outlook and experience.

Idiocy means precisely the lack of that width and depth.

Is a kick up the arse the best way to direct and focus attention for such people (since speaking to them as if they were wise and considerate is pointless as they are idiots -ie lacking just that level of maturity and refinement).

Have I hit on the dilemma of the age? It seems so.

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Stupidity Reply #23 - Jun 10^th, 2012 at 10:22pm It's also a fine line between stupidity and laziness.
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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Stupidity Reply #24 - Jun 10^th, 2012 at 10:45pm muso wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 10:22pm: It's also a fine line between stupidity and laziness. As is between laziness and leisure. There are no leisurely idiots, whereas most idiots are mentally slugguish ( lazy).
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Sir Spot of Borg Gold Member Offline WE ARE BORG Posts: 26510 Australia	Re: Stupidity Reply #25 - Jun 11^th, 2012 at 7:28am sometimes i feel a lil guilty for not liking stupid idiots. They drag everyone down but they are ppl too so I try to be patient with them. Some ppl are just stupid. eg: Quote: 'Homophobes' - two guys smacking and sucking each other - what's to like?? SOB
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MOTR

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Re: Stupidity
Reply #26 - Jun 11^th, 2012 at 7:52am

Soren wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 7:47pm:

JC Denton wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 7:35pm:

i know i love talking sh!t - discussing why stupid people are stupid is the greatest topic of conversation possibly ever.

Thank you. I started this for all of us.

I think idiots know they are idiots. If they were really ignorant of it they would have been run over by a truck at age 7. They couldn't possibly go through life not knowing that they are not actually understanding anything going on around them.

That's the dilemma. How can they be idiots yet navigate through daily life?

Dunning and Kruger are way past you on this one, Soren.

To summarise, there are two consequences of incompetence:
1. They make poor choices
2. They are unaware they make poor choices

The skills for being competent are the same skills for evaluating competency.

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« Last Edit: Jun 11^th, 2012 at 8:00am by MOTR »

Hunt says Coalition accepts IPCC findings

"What does this mean? It means that we need to do practical things that actually reduce emissions."

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Stupidity
Reply #27 - Jun 11^th, 2012 at 11:36am

JC Denton wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 8:39pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 8:33pm:

I maintain the faith that many of the people in question are young (early 20s) and will grow out of it in a few years. Most adolescents go through an emotionally driven rebellious stage. By the time they're nearing 30 though they should be able to keep their over sentimentalism in check and begin to reason. If not, I think stupidity may be permanent.

nah, i used to buy into that argument too, but it's not really that true. i guess to some extent it is with the majority they never grow out of it. they may cut their hair and get jobs but the opinions still remain. most of the worst offenders here are boomers and many are pushing or close to 60.

Then that's quite disturbing.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Stupidity Reply #28 - Jun 11^th, 2012 at 11:44am Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 7:28am: sometimes i feel a lil guilty for not liking stupid idiots. Yeah, lucky. You could be a narcissist.
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...

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Re: Stupidity
Reply #29 - Jun 11^th, 2012 at 11:57am

We need to be "tolerant" of idiots - their intelligence is as out of ones control as the colour of their skin is.
However, just as you'd "politely suggest' that a 200kg heifer steer clear of 2 piece bikinis, so must the dopes be politely reminded that their vapid opinions would be best kept to themselves, or at least within the confines of a circle of their fellow idiots.

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In the fullness of time...

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