Australian Politics Forum - Is This What We Can Look Forward To?

freediver

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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #285 - Jul 28^th, 2012 at 8:10am

Quote:

Abu is not running around killing ppl or even stoning them. It would be on the news - he would be in jail.

This is another example of a false dichotomy. (You don't have to ask a question to create a false dichotomy.) There is a very broad spectrum between harmless and running round killing people and it is naive to suggest that he is harmless because he is not actively killing people. Would you suggest someone promoting Nazism is harmless because they weren't actually killing people?

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Your explanation is flawed. Nobody gives you the answers you want to hear and so you say they arent answering questions. You are selectively blind and dont see it when its right in front of you because you want your belief that islam is evil and all muslims are evil to be true.

Actually Abu has given me (and other people) more than enough answers. It is you who is blind to what is right in front of you. For example, even when I quoted Abu saying he completely rejects freedom and democracy you did not believe it.

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Islam is evil but so is xtinaity. They are on par with each other for evilness. Its just in western society women have risen up and gotten rights now so we look down on countries that havent achieved that yet and call them evil. (thats just an example)

Why do you think this happened in the west? Why do you think it is happening in other cultures relatively easily, but not in the middle east? Even when they have all the other predictors of social progress (wealth, education etc) they still deny each other all the basic human rights we take for granted. Why do you think that is?

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He didnt say that.

Yes he did. It wasn't in this thread though. Ask him yourself if you don't believe me.

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He said they havent even been able to implement it in any countries in 90 years which means not enough ppl want it. Not mainstream.

This is where it gets interesting. He blames all sorts of things, mostly western interference, for Muslims not getting what they want. I agree it is a silly argument, but Abu does think he is mainstream and there are certainly enough like minded people over there to keep the slaughter going. There is still a good chance they will succeed in preventing the establishment of democracy and basic human rights in Iraq and Afghanistan.

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #286 - Jul 28^th, 2012 at 8:58am

Quote:

This is another example of a false dichotomy.

bugger off

Quote:

Would you suggest someone promoting Nazism is harmless because they weren't actually killing people?

The KKK exists yet doesnt go around killing ppl anymore. Well occasionally they do and they get put in jail or killed themselves because america has death penalty.

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It is you who is blind to what is right in front of you.

What is right in front of me is peaceful muslims. I grew up surrounded by them. Like i have said many times the trouble started when i encountered xtians.

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Yes he did. It wasn't in this thread though. Ask him yourself if you don't believe me.

I dont believe a word you say. Its obvious you do the same thing to him you do to me. I asked him straight out and i asked him in your wording and he answered me.

Mainstream: basically i am saying that mainstream are peaceful like the mainstream xtians and not "terrorists". I have no idea what you are trying to make me say and i prolly wouldn't say it anyway.

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freediver

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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #287 - Jul 28^th, 2012 at 10:34am

Quote:

The KKK exists yet doesnt go around killing ppl anymore. Well occasionally they do and they get put in jail or killed themselves because america has death penalty.

OK. So if a KKK person started coming on here and pretending that his ideology was benign, would you be telling everyone that all ideologies are the same and it is unfair to pick on him because he happens to be in the KKK? Or do you only say these things about religion?

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What is right in front of me is peaceful muslims. I grew up surrounded by them.

Abu is also peaceful. Does that make him harmless?

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I dont believe a word you say.

Yet you are too afraid to ask Abu. And you don't believe it when he says it either.

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Its obvious you do the same thing to him you do to me. I asked him straight out and i asked him in your wording and he answered me.

He responded. It was hardly a straight answer.

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Mainstream: basically i am saying that mainstream are peaceful like the mainstream xtians and not "terrorists".

Abu is hardly a terrorist either. Does that make him harmless? Is this another false dichotomy - people are either terrorists or completely harmless?

Here it is Spot, right in front of you, yet again. Do you believe it now?

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 27^th, 2012 at 8:21pm:

What nonsense. I would never degrade the good name of Islam by associating it with these disastrous ideals of freedom and democracy.

Do you believe that Abu supports the death penalty for apostasy etc, or would he have to 'ram it down your throat' before you believed it?

Do you believe that Abu wants Islamic law for Australia? Can you point to anywhere that he has actually said he does not want it, rather than where he has merely refused to give a straight answer? Can you tell the difference between Abu acknowledging his own impotence to achieve what he wants and not wanting it? Can you explain why he would answer by talking about his inability to achieve Islamic law in Australia if it was not what he wanted?

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abu_rashid

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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #288 - Jul 28^th, 2012 at 10:55am

freediver wrote on Jul 28^th, 2012 at 8:10am:

Actually Abu has given me (and other people) more than enough answers.

I thought I never give you straight answers? Bit confused aren't you fd?

freediver wrote on Jul 28^th, 2012 at 8:10am:

Why do you think this happened in the west? Why do you think it is happening in other cultures relatively easily, but not in the middle east? Even when they have all the other predictors of social progress (wealth, education etc) they still deny each other all the basic human rights we take for granted. Why do you think that is?

The interesting thing though is that most of the leaders in the Middle East, and Muslim world at large, who've committed the most atrocious human rights abuses, have been the staunchest allies of the West. In fact most of them have been direct agents of the West, whom they lifted into power, and spent billions in military aid to keep there.

You seem completely oblivious to this fact though, and continue to deny it, instead traipsing out the usual propaganda lines about the West not having anything to do with the Middle East, except to keep them contained.

It's been shown to you time and again that Saddam, Mubarak, Ben Ali, Qadhafi, Assad etc. were all agents of the West, and were all immensely cruel to their own people, and that Islamic movements have risen up to oust most of them and replace their Western-funded military rule with civilian rule.

The facts on the ground completely contradict your position fd, and you're not alone in your denial of it, the Western governments themselves have been scrambling frantically for the past year or two to try and re-cast themselves as the supporters of change and civilian rule in the Middle East, when in fact it's quite clear they have been quite the opposite, and that the change and transition we see greatly disadvantages them and their ally, the Zionist entity.

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freediver

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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #289 - Jul 28^th, 2012 at 11:04am

Quote:

I thought I never give you straight answers? Bit confused aren't you fd?

You tend to give them inadvertently, like the democracy and freedom quote above. I never got anything like that the many times I asked you directly whether you support freedom and democracy. All I got then was "what is freedom" or "I am in no position to overthrow the Australian government".

Quote:

The interesting thing though is that most of the leaders in the Middle East, and Muslim world at large, who've committed the most atrocious human rights abuses, have been the staunchest allies of the West.

See what I mean about the excuses spot? They blow up each other's mosques because the west tells them to.

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #290 - Jul 28^th, 2012 at 11:29am

Quote:

OK. So if a KKK person started coming on here and pretending that his ideology was benign, would you be telling everyone that all ideologies are the same and it is unfair to pick on him because he happens to be in the KKK? Or do you only say these things about religion?

Stop being such a dickhead

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Is this another false dichotomy - people are either terrorists or completely harmless?

You said that not me.

Im sick of this. If you want to have a discussion with me you need to stop being such a dishonest arsehole.

Abu:
Quote:

I thought I never give you straight answers? Bit confused aren't you fd?

Lololololololol

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democracy and freedom

Because its bullshit. Its american sloganism. Nobody in their right mind supports that.

I dont care that other countries have other regimes. Some have dictators and some have monarchies and we have pointless voting between 2 equally bad parties.

Quote:

See what I mean about the excuses spot? They blow up each other's mosques because the west tells them to.

You are just doing the same thing to him that you do to me and reinterpreting his words to mean what you want them to mean in your mind then wanting him to answer for it.

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freediver

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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #291 - Jul 28^th, 2012 at 12:29pm

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 28^th, 2012 at 11:29am:

Quote:

democracy and freedom

Because its bullshit. Its american sloganism. Nobody in their right mind supports that.

Can you elaborate please Spot? What makes you think no sane people support freedom and democracy?

Quote:

I dont care that other countries have other regimes. Some have dictators and some have monarchies and we have pointless voting between 2 equally bad parties.

Do you think you would be no worse off under a dictatorship or theocracy? Or do you just not care because it does not affect you?

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abu_rashid

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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #292 - Jul 28^th, 2012 at 12:52pm

freediver wrote on Jul 28^th, 2012 at 12:29pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 28^th, 2012 at 11:29am:

Quote:

democracy and freedom

Because its bullshit. Its american sloganism. Nobody in their right mind supports that.

Can you elaborate please Spot? What makes you think no sane people support freedom and democracy?

Spot has hit the nail right on the head. The sloganism of the West about freedom and democracy is what we oppose, not the concepts of self-determination for nations and the right to have a say in government.

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #293 - Jul 28^th, 2012 at 1:42pm

Quote:

Can you elaborate please Spot? What makes you think no sane people support freedom and democracy?

No sane ppl support the sloganism.

Quote:

Do you think you would be no worse off under a dictatorship or theocracy? Or do you just not care because it does not affect you?

Not that that is what i meant by it but of course you have to reinterpret everything to sound like you want it to sound.

Well theocracies imo are bad. I dont like to live in those. Nothing wrong with dictatorships and monarchies if the dictator or monarch is okay. The problem is that almost all governments are corrupt now. None of them are working very well and we need more options.

What about you? Tell me your opinions.

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freediver

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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #294 - Jul 28^th, 2012 at 1:46pm

abu_rashid wrote on Jul 28^th, 2012 at 12:52pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 28^th, 2012 at 12:29pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 28^th, 2012 at 11:29am:

Quote:

democracy and freedom

Because its bullshit. Its american sloganism. Nobody in their right mind supports that.

Can you elaborate please Spot? What makes you think no sane people support freedom and democracy?

Spot has hit the nail right on the head. The sloganism of the West about freedom and democracy is what we oppose, not the concepts of self-determination for nations and the right to have a say in government.

Under the Islamic law you prefer, are non-Muslims allowed to vote? Are people allowed to promote anything other than Islamic law?

Do you support actual democracy?

Quote:

Well theocracies imo are bad. I dont like to live in those. Nothing wrong with dictatorships and monarchies if the dictator or monarch is okay. The problem is that almost all governments are corrupt now. None of them are working very well and we need more options.

What about you? Tell me your opinions.

I think monarchies, dictatorships and theocracies are all bad. I value the freedom we have to criticise religion and government and the chance we have to participate in real elections.

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #295 - Jul 28^th, 2012 at 2:35pm

Quote:

I think monarchies, dictatorships and theocracies are all bad. I value the freedom we have to criticise religion and government and the chance we have to participate in real elections.

Be nice if we actually had that freedom but we dont. We get to vote between tweedledee and tweedledum and we didnt pick either of them.

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freediver

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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #296 - Jul 28^th, 2012 at 10:13pm

What do you think of this spot?

abu_rashid wrote on Apr 13^th, 2010 at 4:09pm:

Quote:

Do you think that AQ/Taliban will stop fighting the west if they stop meddling?

If they negotiate a treaty now, yes. If not, then probably not. They'll fight till they become dominant, and then meddle in the U.S.

That's why now is a golden opportunity.

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #297 - Jul 29^th, 2012 at 6:18am

freediver wrote on Jul 28^th, 2012 at 10:13pm:

What do you think of this spot?

abu_rashid wrote on Apr 13^th, 2010 at 4:09pm:

Quote:

Do you think that AQ/Taliban will stop fighting the west if they stop meddling?

If they negotiate a treaty now, yes. If not, then probably not. They'll fight till they become dominant, and then meddle in the U.S.

That's why now is a golden opportunity.

I think it looks about right. While the west meddles in other ppls affairs unwanted they are creating the "terrorists". Has nothing to do with religion. Its human nature - you bugger with somebody and they get angry and bugger you right back.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49039 At my desk.	Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To? Reply #298 - Jul 29^th, 2012 at 7:25am Care to hazard a guess what such a treaty might look like, and what Abu would support if we didn't accept it? abu_rashid wrote on Jul 28^th, 2012 at 10:31pm: There really is no difference between religion and politics, both are concerned with organising the affairs of humanity.
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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #299 - Jul 29^th, 2012 at 7:27am

freediver wrote on Jul 29^th, 2012 at 7:25am:

Care to hazard a guess what such a treaty might look like, and what Abu would support if we didn't accept it?

abu_rashid wrote on Jul 28^th, 2012 at 10:31pm:

There really is no difference between religion and politics, both are concerned with organising the affairs of humanity.

how should i know? ask abu.

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