muso wrote on Jun 30^th, 2012 at 3:06pm:



Not so, muso.




muso,

Consider Bertrand Russell's teapot 'argument', the possibility of a [theoretical] 'celestial' teapot being in an orbit around the sun.



TWO POSSIBLE CIRCUMSTANCES [possibilities] APPLY [if we were utilising only 20th century technology];

Circumstance #1,
If there is a physical teapot, in an orbit of the sun, can it be possible to discover [i.e. to 'know'] that this teapot exists, and that it is orbiting the sun?

Circumstance #2,
If there is no teapot in an orbit of the sun, is it possible for mankind [observing only from the earth] to know that there is [in fact] no teapot in an orbit around the sun?


A.
#1, Yes.       [Because it is possible to have knowledge of a 'positive' existence.]

A.
#2, No.




Q.
Why 'No', for #2 ?

A.
Simply, that because of the vastness [in linear space] of the orbit around the sun, mankind [if utilising only 20th century technology] could never know for certain that a theorised [none existent] 'celestial' teapot [in an orbit around the sun], did not exist.


muso,

Therefore it is perfectly logical and valid for me to say that we [mankind] cannot know some things.
That some knowledge [i.e. to have a 'positive' knowledge of a theorised none existent entity or object] is not possible - UNLESS YOU/WE ARE AN OMNISCIENT ENTITY.

Because we [humans] are not omniscient, there are some 'things' and there is some knowledge, which will always be, beyond our capacity to know, or comprehend.






Whereas, it is possible to have a knowledge of a 'positive'.       

Job 19:25
....I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

muso wrote on Jun 30^th, 2012 at 3:17pm:



muso,

I don't like your math [algebra] !      


1 = x OR y

Yadda wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2012 at 2:02am:


It was a joke. I was proving that 1+1= 1

The problem lies in the fact that x-1 =0, and you can't really divide by zero and make sense.

Pedantic on/ You don't need to be omniscient to know that there is no teapot orbiting Pluto. You could get by without knowing many things. You'd just have to have an intimate knowledge of the space around Pluto. If you didn't know what was orbiting Mars or Jupiter, you could still know.

Quote:


OK, but that only applies for the unique type of "Spirit realm" that you understand from your religion.

To me, life is an amazing thing. It isn't supernatural, but I'd be interested in how you would differentiate between life and "the spirit world" as you put it.  Nobody quite understands how self awareness occurs. I'm not implying that there is anything mystical or supernatural about life, but it is very special natural phenomenon that nobody quite understands, but you and I would probably agree that we'd like to understand it better.

Your path to understanding life is different from mine, but as a fellow traveller in the universe, I look on your attempts with respect - not with any kind of mockery.

muso wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2012 at 8:12pm:



muso,

IMO, there is no 'differentiation' involved.

God is the source of all life, as we know it.



My belief is that all knowledge, and all life [as we know them], comes from God himself.

Even that knowledge which atheists 'acquire' [i.e. their 'knowledge' that God does not exist], is a gift imparted directly from God.   [...And even when we choose to embrace erroneous knowledge, God allows us to choose and embrace it. And i believe that that power 'to error' [within us] comes from God himself, .....for his own purpose.]

Romans 9:19
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?



And i believe that the life that atheists [and indeed all creatures] enjoy, comes directly from the life that God is.

But i believe that the life which we experience [that which we call 'life'] is a mere 'shadow' of what true LIFE! really is.

What we know as 'life', is not LIFE!



And God then proceeds with us [he 'nurtures' us, our progressive life and our progressive knowledge], depending upon on how we use that knowledge and that life which he imparts to us.

That is what i believe.....

All life comes from God.

All knowledge [that men 'hold'] comes from God.

Yadda wrote on Jul 4^th, 2012 at 7:25pm:


I don't know it, but I can reasonably assume that it doesn't exist.

My point is that "omniscient" by definition means knowing everything. On the othr hand, Intimate knowledge about the few million cubic kilometers of space around Pluto is  an insignificant fraction of the  knowledge of the entiire universe.  In fact, it  is perfectly feasible to determine if there is a teapot orbiting around Pluto using today's technology. You'd have to send a few space probes and it would take several years. but that knowledge could easily be acquired by men.   

Put it this way, if you can determine if there is a planet orbiting around a nearby  star without leaving the solar system, that is a much greater feat than any orbiting teapot determinations.

Soren wrote on Jul 5^th, 2012 at 10:24pm:


The Deist God is not human experience.  However, what Yadda says about there being no discernable difference between life and the "spirit world" rings true. My own Religious Naturalist position takes the view that what we're really talking about is the manifestation of life.

I agree that "God" is in human experience, if we define "God" as life or nature.

Some aspects of Yadda's Judeo Christian God aligns with the immanent concept  of God being within. (God= life). The consciousness and conscienta of the human condition is also a pretty mysterious and beautiful thing.

Life is still a fairly mysterious process. It's difficult to explain in totally objective terms.

The Abrahamic God amalgamates the "God the creator" and the "God of nature" although there are still echoes of polytheism/ monolatry in that the human nature/ nature  aspect formerly associated with the Goddess Astarte / Ashera eventually became associated with witchcraft. 

The God of Nature had a comeback with the advent of Thomas Payne and the Deists, and they were totally despised by Christians at the time, who regarded them as devli worshippers.

Matthew 4.8
Quote:



What does that imply about the realm of Satan (nature/ the Earth) ?
 

muso wrote on Jul 5^th, 2012 at 6:38pm:





+++


muso wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2012 at 8:12pm:




Let me try again         [i wrote what follows offline]....


The sense that i get, is that it would be, and that it is presumptuous of me, to try to explain, or to put into words, my understanding of the nature of God.  [...and here i go!]
What i have seen of God is that his form is that of a man, .....but was that 'form' [which i 'perceived'] being made known to me [so as to 'reveal' [to me] a sense of his presence], as a concession to my limited comprehension ?            [see; Genesis 18:1-8  ...where God presents himself to Abraham, in the form of a man, with two companions.]
That indeed seems likely.
My sense is that my own mental comprehension [of the spiritual] is so limited, as not to have a capacity to understand even the nature of God's 'form'.
My sense is that the 'nature', the essence of what God is [i.e. the true 'form' of the living God!], could be described as, VIRTUE and LIGHT and PURITY.
But i know [with certainty] that any words [from me] would always convey a very imperfect description, of what 'God' is.
IMO, getting a better sense of what God is, and getting a better sense of the nature of God, >>is possible<< from reading and meditating upon, 1/ the book of Psalms, and 2/ by meditating upon the description of the 'person' of [rather than the man] Jesus, contained in the Gospels.
The *man* that was Jesus was not God, but then, yes he was, ...God!
Am i confused ?
The essence of the person described by and known as, the man Jesus, was God [to my understanding].
Jesus essence and his nature [the nature of the man we know as 'Jesus'] was God [to my understanding].

AND A CONCLUDING ADMISSION;
What do i truly know of God ?
Almost nothing.


What does [personally] intrigue me about 'God' is this;

Job 7:17
What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him?

Luke 12:7
But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.


Something about God, that i know, for certain [i think     ]...
It is God's intention to [one day] reveal himself, to the understanding [comprehension] of all men.

Yadda wrote on Jul 8^th, 2012 at 1:02am:



Something else about God, that i know, for certain...

......is that God has the ability and that he has the power to do that, ....the power and ability to reveal himself, to our understanding and comprehension.

How ?

Well, if it is true that God designed, and made us, then it is also likely that God has the power to change our [mental, and spiritual?] 'capacities'.




Quote:

Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1303676733/207#207