Australian Politics Forum - "I know that there is no god,...."

Yadda

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"I know that there is no god,...."
Jun 19^th, 2012 at 11:31pm

Adamant wrote on Jun 19^th, 2012 at 10:59pm:

Yadda

I know you to be a serious individual and devout in your beliefs, perhaps "you" the individual could share your beliefs with me/us on the forum.

I must state that I know that there is no god,

on the reverse side of the coin I wish no evil to anyone. That stated I look forward to your reply.

With respect adamant, you cannot know, that something does not exist, or that there is no God.

IMO, such a statement is not logical.

e.g.
If i stand before you, and i show you my closed fist, do you know what is hidden within it ?

I may claim that i have a 10 cent coin within my closed fist.

The point is that you cannot know if there is a 10 cent within my closed fist, unless i open my hand.

Then again, maybe there is no coin in my hand.

And again, you can never know that there is no coin in my closed hand, if i do not open my hand.

The point i am trying to make is that it is impossible to prove a negative, .....i.e. we cannot logically prove the NON-existence of something that does not exist, if it does not exist.

!!!

And while-soever something is withheld from our perception, THAT circumstance, is not proof, that an artefact or 'thing', does not exist.

And, the same logical conclusion must apply to the existence of a spiritual realm, or, to the existence of a 'God', or 'the' God. Wink

i.e.
Because, and while-soever, you are not aware of a 'God', THAT circumstance, in itself does not prove, that a 'God' does not exist.

Can you accept that logic ?

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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bobbythefap1 Gold Member Offline Posts: 7026 Listen now to the rain	Re: "I know that there is no god,...." Reply #1 - Jun 20^th, 2012 at 9:31am I know that your specific god does not exist.
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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: "I know that there is no god,...." Reply #2 - Jun 20^th, 2012 at 10:18am If I am afraid of heigts but you are not, does that mean that the fear of hights doesn't therefore exist? God is an experience of a relationship. Like love. If you don't experience love, does that mean that there is no such thing as love?
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bobbythefap1

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Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Reply #3 - Jun 20^th, 2012 at 10:21am

Soren wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 10:18am:

If I am afraid of heigts but you are not, does that mean that the fear of hights doesn't therefore exist?

God is an experience of a relationship. Like love. If you don't experience love, does that mean that there is no such thing as love?

The fact you have to come up with silly arguments like that just proves that you are defending a seriously silly idea.

None of that makes a god more real then Cinderella.

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A day without sunshine is like night.

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FriYAY Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 7395	Re: "I know that there is no god,...." Reply #4 - Jun 20^th, 2012 at 3:18pm bobbythefap1 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 9:31am: I know that your specific god does not exist. But how do you prove it?
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bobbythefap1

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Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Reply #5 - Jun 20^th, 2012 at 4:03pm

FriYAY wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 3:18pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 9:31am:

I know that your specific god does not exist.

But how do you prove it?

Law of probability.
Just the idea of a god is already virtually impossible as it is one of an infinite number of possibility's as to the creation of our universe and/or life as we know it.
An extremely specific god bound by a strict story/history/factors/rules/characteristics is so far past possible it is safe to call it impossible.
Given that there is no evidence there is no probability passed the point that the story of Cinderella has.
If there was evidence then it would slightly increase probability, but there is none.

At this stage we have no way or means to limit the number of infinite possibility's either and until we can have some start as to knowing the origins of our universe it is pointless and ignorant to belief in anything let alone something so crazily specific.

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A day without sunshine is like night.

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Frances Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3577 In a Castle in the Hills Gender:	Re: "I know that there is no god,...." Reply #6 - Jun 20^th, 2012 at 5:01pm So are you saying if you can't see something that it therefore does not exist?
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Yadda

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Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Reply #7 - Jun 20^th, 2012 at 7:40pm

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 9:31am:

I know that your specific god does not exist.

PP,

No, you don't.

PP,

Argument;
Even if my God did not exist, you could not >> prove << that my God did not exist.

Why so ???

That conclusion is based on simple logic.

You are a human being, with normal human perception.

You are a human being, you are NOT an omniscient being.

You do not know, you cannot know, if God exists, because you do not even know [in minute detail] what is contained within our own universe.

So, how could you know that, for instance, that the universe does not contain God ???

Dictionary;
omniscient = = knowing everything.

+++

Common human 'proof' is built upon, has a 'basis' in, our 'perception'.

What you are impso facto claiming, is that because you have not perceived the existence of God, therefore it is very likely, indeed almost certain, that God does not exist.

That is a very presumptuous, and arrogant thought [i.e. an imagined reality], imo.

+++

Consider;

somewhere on OzPol........
Quote:

Prior to Columbus discovering the Americas [well, discovering central America anyway] the American continents did not exist.
....well, not within the mental consciousness of Europeans.

n.b.
Effectively, THE AMERICAS DID NOT 'EXIST', in the consciousness of Europeans, prior to Columbus discovery of the Americas.

And i am sure that when Columbus returned to Spain, that initially many of his interlocutors were unable to 'conceive' of his 'new world', beyond the horizon.

And indeed, when they first heard the 'tale', many Europeans refused to believe, that Columbus had discovered a 'new world'.

+++

p.s.

The God of Israel does exist.

God, is very, very, real.

How can i know that God is real ?

I have 'perceived' him, ........even if you have not. Grin

So, is Yadda mad ?

If my perception, and my reality is different from yours, if my life experiences are different from yours, does that mean that my 'reality' is invalid, and, that your 'reality' is valid ???

Is that what you are saying ?

Again, imo, that is a very presumptuous, and arrogant thought [i.e. an imagined reality].

But hey, if you want to hold onto the reality which you have created, that is OK.

Tip;

If you want to 'perceive' God, stop accepting presumptions [as truth], and instead start accepting truth [whenever you stumble across it].

And, if you want to actively search for God, a good place to start, is in your Bible.

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing happened.

- Winston Churchill

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."

George Orwell

"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear."

George Orwell

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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bobbythefap1 Gold Member Offline Posts: 7026 Listen now to the rain	Re: "I know that there is no god,...." Reply #8 - Jun 20^th, 2012 at 8:20pm Frances wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 5:01pm: So are you saying if you can't see something that it therefore does not exist? No.
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bobbythefap1 Gold Member Offline Posts: 7026 Listen now to the rain	Re: "I know that there is no god,...." Reply #9 - Jun 20^th, 2012 at 8:22pm Just looking at that the length and obscurity of that post just proves you are talking crap about crap. I can perceive a French Chicken horse man but that doesn't make it so ding bat.
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Yadda

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Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Reply #10 - Jun 20^th, 2012 at 8:57pm

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 9:31am:

I know that your specific god does not exist.

PP,

What you expressed [above] is your reality.

What you expressed [above] is your, ........arrogance.

Nothing strange.

Arrogance is common in the human animal. Tongue

Dictionary;
arrogant = = having an exaggerated sense of one’s own importance or abilities.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Adamant

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Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Reply #11 - Jun 20^th, 2012 at 10:16pm

Yadda wrote on Jun 19^th, 2012 at 11:31pm:

Adamant wrote on Jun 19^th, 2012 at 10:59pm:

Yadda

I know you to be a serious individual and devout in your beliefs, perhaps "you" the individual could share your beliefs with me/us on the forum.

I must state that I know that there is no god,

on the reverse side of the coin I wish no evil to anyone. That stated I look forward to your reply.

With respect adamant, you cannot know, that something does not exist, or that there is no God.

IMO, such a statement is not logical.

e.g.
If i stand before you, and i show you my closed fist, do you know what is hidden within it ?

I may claim that i have a 10 cent coin within my closed fist.

The point is that you cannot know if there is a 10 cent within my closed fist, unless i open my hand.

Then again, maybe there is no coin in my hand.

And again, you can never know that there is no coin in my closed hand, if i do not open my hand.

The point i am trying to make is that it is impossible to prove a negative, .....i.e. we cannot logically prove the NON-existence of something that does not exist, if it does not exist.

!!!

And while-soever something is withheld from our perception, THAT circumstance, is not proof, that an artefact or 'thing', does not exist.

And, the same logical conclusion must apply to the existence of a spiritual realm, or, to the existence of a 'God', or 'the' God. Wink

i.e.
Because, and while-soever, you are not aware of a 'God', THAT circumstance, in itself does not prove, that a 'God' does not exist.

Can you accept that logic ?

Thank you Yadda for your answer. I am at the mo very busy but have tagged this and will respond as soon as time permits.

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In real life Gandalf is known as Mr 10%

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Bertram

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Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Reply #12 - Jun 20^th, 2012 at 10:21pm

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 4:03pm:

FriYAY wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 3:18pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 9:31am:

I know that your specific god does not exist.

But how do you prove it?

Law of probability.
Just the idea of a god is already virtually impossible as it is one of an infinite number of possibility's as to the creation of our universe and/or life as we know it.
An extremely specific god bound by a strict story/history/factors/rules/characteristics is so far past possible it is safe to call it impossible.
Given that there is no evidence there is no probability passed the point that the story of Cinderella has.
If there was evidence then it would slightly increase probability, but there is none.

At this stage we have no way or means to limit the number of infinite possibility's either and until we can have some start as to knowing the origins of our universe it is pointless and ignorant to belief in anything let alone something so crazily specific.

i don't believe you have thought about any of this much, at all.

there is no 'infinite ways of creating the universe. this is just a figure of speech, like the 1001 nights is a figure of speech for a lot. I don't think you could list more than a handful plausible ways (and i don't mean crazy made-up stuff that has no resemblance of what we know and see).

god is extremely nonspecific. this is because god is not bound by the specificities of material objects or by language - our own very specific limitations. this counts against god in a big way if you want to limit things to the scientific way of seeing - a fairly recent invention, itself growing out of much older and more complex and much less 'scientistic' precedents.

cindarella is a parable and like all parables, it is true. a parable speaks to experience that recognises its truth.

we can very easily limit the possibilities of creation to what is plausible (small number) and conceivable (larger but still small number). as you say yourself, the origins are crucial because they set in motion thing like time, space, causality, extension and all the rst of the mental apparatus that enables us to consciously perceive the world.

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Soren

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Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Reply #13 - Jun 20^th, 2012 at 10:47pm

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 10:21am:

Soren wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 10:18am:

If I am afraid of heigts but you are not, does that mean that the fear of hights doesn't therefore exist?

God is an experience of a relationship. Like love. If you don't experience love, does that mean that there is no such thing as love?

The fact you have to come up with silly arguments like that just proves that you are defending a seriously silly idea.

None of that makes a god more real then Cinderella.

You could not give a concise reason for why my analogy is silly even if your life depended on it.

Cindarella is real. Odysseus is real, Achilles, Oedipus, Antigone, Snow WHite. Everyone knows who they are. In a very real sense, Cindarella, Odysseus etc are better known (ie more real) to more people than you or me.

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Yadda

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Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Reply #14 - Jun 20^th, 2012 at 10:51pm

Bertram wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 10:21pm:

god is extremely nonspecific. this is because god is not bound by the specificities of material objects or by language - our own very specific limitations.

this counts against god in a big way if you want to limit things to the scientific way of seeing - a fairly recent invention, itself growing out of much older and more complex and much less 'scientistic' precedents.

Bertram,
There is a lot of truth in what you said, above.

God is a spiritual entity.

And i am an entity encased in flesh, and being encased in this flesh, it is very difficult, for my carnal mind, to perceive, and to even think, in a spiritual way.

I have difficulties, when i seek God, because i too, am caught up in this flesh, in this world.

One way of 'getting clear' of this flesh, is to meditate, and to enter a quiet time.

I also find that reading the bible can be [for me], very meditative.

I wrote.......
Quote:

Reading the bible, i believe, has 'changed my mind', in every sense of that expression!
And imo, reading the Bible, is a form of spiritual invocation.
IMO, the words and thoughts expressed within the Bible, express [to me] the mind of our God.
Reading those words and thoughts, exposes me to the spirit, which i want to be influenced by.

God, is a spirit being, we are flesh, and we are caught up in the cares of this world.

Being in that circumstance, how can we comprehend God ???

We can't.

We are just grasping at an idea, an ideal, of what he is.

I have been in his presence [out of my body], and i [still] do NOT know, what God is.

But, i want to live in his presence, when i leave here!!!

I can 'say' that God, is a spirit, .......but what does that mean ???

I do not know what that statement really means.

Isaiah 55:8
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

My advice, to everyone who will listen is;

If you can find it within you, GIVE UP THIS WORLD, and seek God.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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