Spot:
Quote:I havent seen it but i have seen yaddas opinion of palestinians. Same thing you accuse falah of methinks.
Having a low opinion of someone is not the same as wanting them put to death, in my opinion.
Karnal:
Quote:I know how it goes, Freediver, but I doubt very much that Falah believes the overthrow of the Australian government is even remotely possible.
Not now. In the future he considers it inevitable, and will get very frustrated when he sees it slipping away - far more frustrated than he he gets on here.
Quote:Yadda would also have a list of people he'd like to see tried and executed, but is probably realistic about the likelihood of this happening.
Have you asked him?
What makes Abu and Falah different is that they have a long list of names, are prepared to follow through with it, are part of a relatively well organised group, and so far have been largely flying under the radar. Our society dealt with Christian extremists centuries ago. We have barely scratched the surface on Islamic extremism. What is especially odd is that so many people who are quick to criticise religion in general (spot is an extreme example of this) are also quick to come to Islam's defence and fairly oblivious to what the Muslims they defend are actually saying.
Quote:Falah and Yadda are minorities in their respective religions. There is a difference though. I have not read anything like the sort of angry, ignorant and relentless attacks on Christianity as I have on Islam - and I'm referring to most of the threads here on the Muslim board.
That's because you have not read anything like the sort of backwards opinions on freedom and democracy from other members as you have from the Muslims, nor the deceptive ways they try to present themselves as flag carriers for true freedom and true democracy. With Yadda, what you see is what you get. With Abu and Falah what you think you see is usually the opposite of what you actually get. There is a huge difference between your garden variety nutter and someone with a carefully constructed PR campaign around their nuttiness. One type is in a mental asylum. The other is a Hitler.
Quote:If I was the target of this hostility day-in day-out, I'd be inclined to retaliate. I'd try very hard not to, but I'm not perfect. I'd probably feel marginalised. I'd probably get angry. You know the sort of posts I'm talking about - there's a thread about Muslims having the audacity to pray.
Perhaps you should direct your comments at the people making these claims. It is hard to feel sorry for Falah when he spends most of his time on this forum googling random articles to try to pin stuff on other religions, then carefully editing out any bits that don't suit before he copies and pastes.
Quote:When it gets to this level, people get defensive. But they can't win - as soon as they arc up it's evidence of their violent ways. They're expected to take every jibe, and answer every dumb question with equanimity.
I would prefer he simply ignored them, like I do with his dumb freeliar jibes. He responds to about every third post from with with an accusation that I am lying that he cannot back up. He seems to handle the dumb stuff well and uses it as part of the Muslim victim PR campaign. What seems to really annoy him are the genuine questions about freedom and democracy, or when he is caught out with blatant lies and misrepresentations - like in the thread on farming and his spin about aboriginal scholars.
Quote:You do this yourself. You've even created a whole list of their answers as proof - proof!
Karnal, the reason I did this is because they kept denying the things they had said previously. It was incredibly frustrating trying to have a simple debate when their position changed to suit whatever spin they are trotting out and they pretended they did not say things. Like I said, with Yadda what you see is what you get. Whereas Falah and Abu kept demanding I prove that they had said what I remembered them saying the day before. It was their demands that created that list.
What else do you expect people to do? Ignore it when people with an agenda to kill start posting spin on a politics forum and changing their story constantly?
How is what you say any different to asking that people be nice to Nazis because if we call them on their BS it is our fault if they lose it and start killing Jews? It is kind of naive to assume everything will work out better if we ignore this sort of thing or treat it with kid gloves don't you think? When should we start calling them on their BS? When will it be too late?
Quote:To me, it demonstrates perfectly how the War on Terror works.
You will have to elaborate on this one for me.
Karnal, this debate with Islam in general has very real implications, involving the deaths of thousands of people every year. It is a discussion we need to open up, not ignore and hope it goes away. We are currently involved in two decade long wars, and the only reason we are still there is because we are trying to establish a functioning democracy. If Muslims are fundamentally opposed to democracy and it is doomed to failure - as Abu and Falah suggest - we need to know. If it is 10% of Afghans who are murderously opposed and 90% who want it, we need to know. If the majority will simply turn away as democracy is destroyed because their religion demands it, we need to know. If we cannot even figure out what local English speaking Muslims really want, what hope do we have? If Abu, Falah and like minded people in the Taliban and Al Quaida try to spin it as if they support democracy when in fact the opposite is true, we need to know. These people may not be running the world, but they are powerful enough to draw us and the US into a long war. How many people need to die before we take it seriously? Millions? If we don't even have the balls to ask the tough questions from the safety of the internet, what hope do we have?
The ongoing wars in Iraq and Afghanistan would have to be the most farcical in human history. It is monty python class comedy, except for the hundreds of thousands of dead people. When else in history has the victor attempted to establish a popularly elected government in a country they defeated, only to have it violently thrown back in their face, then persisted in trying to help the people? This is the farce we are in, and the things that Abu and Falah have posted here give genuine insight into that farce. Before Abu and Malik turned up my views on the matter were not that different to spots. It was only by talking to genuine Muslims that I gained an appreciation for how backwards the ideology is, how thick and unfamiliar the spin is and how difficult the war on terror will be to resolve. The reason I try to put it out there for others to see in a simple manner is because I did so much head scratching myself trying to figure out what is going on.
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