Australian Politics Forum - aboriginal muslim scholars of the 1600's

Soren

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Re: aboriginal muslim scholars of the 1600's
Reply #60 - Jul 11^th, 2012 at 8:14pm

Karnal wrote on Jul 11^th, 2012 at 2:47pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 11^th, 2012 at 1:56pm:

Abu and Falah and all the other Hiz ul Tahrir and Taliban and Al Qaida cheer squad are in that Muslim mould and tradition because there is no other Muslim tradition.

Sure there is. There are Islamic reformist movements in countries from Turkey to Malaysia.

There is also a distinct separation of church and state in most Muslim countries. Outside civil disputes and family matters, shariah law is rare. I'm not sure how many states use it in their criminal systems, but I'd say this would be extremely rare. Indonesia is the biggest Muslim state, and liberal democracy there is starting to take hold - without any recent Western intervention.

Anyway, this isn't about defending Islam. It's about defending our own secular traditions. People are free to subject themselves to any ethical system they choose as long as it doesn't keep the neighbours up at night.

This isn't some vague, abstract principle, it's the cornerstone of the Western liberal tradition. It defines, if you want, "our own culture". It's the very reason you defend the West, and its the basis of every measurement we use to assess the values of others.

If you don't practice it in action, you might as well join the Taliban.

The gates of the church will always remain open.

The religious and ethical principles of Islam are a parody of judaism and christianity.
Philosophically and ethically Islam is a stuck-in-the-mud retard.
Artistically, in literature and music, it is negligible to mindlessly hostile and death-thirsty
Socially, it is the dark, tribal badlands of humanity.
Politically, it is a furtive to wild-eyed idiocy.
Economically, Islam is buggered.
It stand for sociopathy - complete incomprehension of how the world has changed around it in 1400 years.

Islam it is either joke or a grave danger, depending how ditzy you are. And if after the murders in the name of Islam in the last 20 year you are still leaning toward the 'harmless loonies' assessment, then you are thicker and more militantly stupid than even imagined you, and that's saying something. in this case only SOB is more ditzy than you, but thn noboy beats SOB when it comes to sheer, native idiocy impervious to any tutoring.i

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49371 At my desk.	Re: aboriginal muslim scholars of the 1600's Reply #61 - Jul 11^th, 2012 at 8:17pm Soren you are doing it again. Stick to the topic please.
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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: aboriginal muslim scholars of the 1600's Reply #62 - Jul 11^th, 2012 at 9:43pm Sorry - SOB is a shining light to us all. (better?)
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49371 At my desk.	Re: aboriginal muslim scholars of the 1600's Reply #63 - Jul 11^th, 2012 at 9:57pm You have seen the light!
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freediver

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Re: aboriginal muslim scholars of the 1600's
Reply #64 - Jul 11^th, 2012 at 10:09pm

Thanks to Yadda for this little gem. This video is from the USA. it was shot in an amusement park. Apparently, the people throwing whatever they can pick up at the group are Muslims who object to their right to speak their mind.

Karnal, how do you think we should respond to this sort of thing? Self censorship?

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Soren

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Re: aboriginal muslim scholars of the 1600's
Reply #65 - Jul 11^th, 2012 at 10:42pm

freediver wrote on Jul 11^th, 2012 at 10:09pm:

Thanks to Yadda for this little gem. This video is from the USA. it was shot in an amusement park. Apparently, the people throwing whatever they can pick up at the group are Muslims who object to their right to speak their mind.

Karnal, how do you think we should respond to this sort of thing? Self censorship?

My sense is that these stupid Muslims think that everyone is a multiculti pussy like Karnal and so when the Muslms get ripped into, in response to their intolerable intolerance as it happened in Iraq, Afghanistan, Cronulla, Norway, they will be just stunned.
Most people in the West are not ABC listening, Drum reading, hand wringing social workers. If you look at history, the western tradition is not about quietude and going along with the intolerable.

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: aboriginal muslim scholars of the 1600's
Reply #66 - Jul 12^th, 2012 at 6:05am

Quote:

I think you have to go back a bit further than that. And remember, the Christian societies did not have a superpower imposing freedom and democracy on them, the were busy creating such systems. Without external influence, the Muslim societies would not be that different to Muhammed's time. The extremists would be running the show.

Well @ any rate that area has always been that way with the killing and extremism and crap. Its where xtianity came from too. The extremism america seem to be trying very hard to get control of the show. Sad

Quote:

I don't claim any special knowledge on this. Much of the bible reads like a poorly written history book to me, especially the old testament. I think it would be impossible to get the statutes from the bible that you get from Islam.

History book? If you see it as a history book then the koran is of the same "history". they are the same. They have the same cultural influence and all that revenge and violence. Its fiction. Not much in either book has ever been proved as "fact" if anything. Fiction of the time though. The time where that was how life was and still is for a lot of ppl.

About abu and falah. Even if all the things you say about them are true (and if I remain a member here for a while I will talk to them) they are hardly representative of all muslims. If I thought avram was representative of all jews I would be on a crusade (or jihad lol) like you are.

Thing is that I dont like any religions and I especially dont like extremists of any religion. they are all dangerous. The thing is though with all this fear campaign against the muslims isnt it like poking a hornets nest with a stick? Comon stop playing into it. the ppl that treat them like they are poo are the ones making them angry.

I know muslims. I have lived with them. Their religion is annoying just like living with xtians is annoying however the xtians are MORE annoying. In the countries where muslims are the majority but there is actual law and order the stonings and stuff dont happen. They dont happen here either - if an incident does happen they are treated like the criminal they are.

SOB

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: aboriginal muslim scholars of the 1600's
Reply #67 - Jul 12^th, 2012 at 6:09am

Quantum wrote on Jul 11^th, 2012 at 8:03pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 11^th, 2012 at 2:13pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 11^th, 2012 at 9:11am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 11^th, 2012 at 6:07am:

Quote:

It is ridiculous to compare Yadda to Falah. Just bizarre. There is no political dimention to Christianity that is comparable to the explicit political aims of Islam, for starters. Your reflex equivocation between every religion just to excuse Islam's very unique charactristics is ignorant at best.

the religions are almost identical. the comparison is valid.

the cultures on the other hand arent so much anymore. Most xtians cant get away with what the muslims can get away within some countries where the culture is suitable for it. Funnily enough those are mostly occupied countries.

SOB

Can you give some examples Spot? Are you saying there is more religious and political freedom in the middle east?

im sayng they are just like the xtians were not long ago (couple hundred years maybe). Same area too funnily enough. Its the same crap. Stone adulterers kill thieves etc. The muslims that are subjected to western civilisation are not so violent. How many stonings and shootings of women happen in australian or america or uk? Not so many just the normal amount of criminals. It is the environment.

I read both the holy books. Not being indoctrinated beforehand i didnt know which bits were supposed to be figurative in either one. They are both the same. They are both from the same era in the same area thats why. Suddenly when a muslim lives in a western country more parts of the book are figurative prolly. Like the xtian book.

Tell me freediver. How did you read the books? Did you know which parts are supposed to be figurative?

SOB

You may well have read them both, but you clearly had no idea what you were reading.

They were not written in the same era, and they were not written in the same place. In fact, they both use very different Literacy forms and therefore read nothing like each other.

How can anyone be so critical of something they know so little about? Actually, that question answers itself.

What are you saying im critical of? the xtain book or the muslim one? I am critical of both in fact - they are both violent fiction.

I thought i explained earlier that i dont have the indoctrination to read the xtian bible "properly" I see it like the koran - all literal. I dont know which bits are figurative same as most ppl with the koran.

SOB

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Quantum

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Re: aboriginal muslim scholars of the 1600's
Reply #68 - Jul 12^th, 2012 at 8:37am

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 12^th, 2012 at 6:09am:

Quantum wrote on Jul 11^th, 2012 at 8:03pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 11^th, 2012 at 2:13pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 11^th, 2012 at 9:11am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 11^th, 2012 at 6:07am:

Quote:

It is ridiculous to compare Yadda to Falah. Just bizarre. There is no political dimention to Christianity that is comparable to the explicit political aims of Islam, for starters. Your reflex equivocation between every religion just to excuse Islam's very unique charactristics is ignorant at best.

the religions are almost identical. the comparison is valid.

the cultures on the other hand arent so much anymore. Most xtians cant get away with what the muslims can get away within some countries where the culture is suitable for it. Funnily enough those are mostly occupied countries.

SOB

Can you give some examples Spot? Are you saying there is more religious and political freedom in the middle east?

im sayng they are just like the xtians were not long ago (couple hundred years maybe). Same area too funnily enough. Its the same crap. Stone adulterers kill thieves etc. The muslims that are subjected to western civilisation are not so violent. How many stonings and shootings of women happen in australian or america or uk? Not so many just the normal amount of criminals. It is the environment.

I read both the holy books. Not being indoctrinated beforehand i didnt know which bits were supposed to be figurative in either one. They are both the same. They are both from the same era in the same area thats why. Suddenly when a muslim lives in a western country more parts of the book are figurative prolly. Like the xtian book.

Tell me freediver. How did you read the books? Did you know which parts are supposed to be figurative?

SOB

You may well have read them both, but you clearly had no idea what you were reading.

They were not written in the same era, and they were not written in the same place. In fact, they both use very different Literacy forms and therefore read nothing like each other.

How can anyone be so critical of something they know so little about? Actually, that question answers itself.

What are you saying im critical of? the xtain book or the muslim one? I am critical of both in fact - they are both violent fiction.

I thought i explained earlier that i dont have the indoctrination to read the xtian bible "properly" I see it like the koran - all literal. I dont know which bits are figurative same as most ppl with the koran.

SOB

The problem is comments like this;

Quote:

History book? If you see it as a history book then the koran is of the same "history". they are the same. They have the same cultural influence and all that revenge and violence. Its fiction. Not much in either book has ever been proved as "fact" if anything. Fiction of the time though. The time where that was how life was and still is for a lot of ppl.

and this;

Quote:

They are both the same. They are both from the same era in the same area thats why.

They are not from the same place or time period and they are written to completely different cultures. They are also written in completely different styles, the Bible primarily being complied of many different types throughout. How someone could have read them both and not noticed this is impossible.

As for not knowing what if figurative and literal, unless you read newspapers, fiction novels, instruction manuals, poems, private letters, bills, and road signs the same way, then the old excuse of not knowing doesn't fly. Either that or you have no comprehension of written English.

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freediver

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Re: aboriginal muslim scholars of the 1600's
Reply #69 - Jul 12^th, 2012 at 8:43am

Quote:

About abu and falah. Even if all the things you say about them are true (and if I remain a member here for a while I will talk to them) they are hardly representative of all muslims.

They are representative of the problems with Islam, and why the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are still dragging on, and why people get nervous if an unaccompanied bag is left on a bus.

Quote:

The thing is though with all this fear campaign against the muslims isnt it like poking a hornets nest with a stick? Comon stop playing into it. the ppl that treat them like they are poo are the ones making them angry.

Sure, but what do you suggest as an alternative? Self censorship? That we don't call them on their BS in case they kill someone? Would you suggest we treat Nazis the same way?

Quote:

In the countries where muslims are the majority but there is actual law and order the stonings and stuff dont happen.

That's because Shariah Islamic law, the law Abu and Falah want to bring back and impose on people, has been largely eradicated. But it does still happen and will happen more if people are afraid to shine a light in dark places.

If you don't have the balls to call their BS for what it is from the safety of the internet, what hope do you have? When has freedom ever been protected by cowering in the corner?

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Karnal

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Re: aboriginal muslim scholars of the 1600's
Reply #70 - Jul 12^th, 2012 at 10:36am

Soren wrote on Jul 11^th, 2012 at 8:14pm:

Karnal wrote on Jul 11^th, 2012 at 2:47pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 11^th, 2012 at 1:56pm:

Abu and Falah and all the other Hiz ul Tahrir and Taliban and Al Qaida cheer squad are in that Muslim mould and tradition because there is no other Muslim tradition.

Sure there is. There are Islamic reformist movements in countries from Turkey to Malaysia.

There is also a distinct separation of church and state in most Muslim countries. Outside civil disputes and family matters, shariah law is rare. I'm not sure how many states use it in their criminal systems, but I'd say this would be extremely rare. Indonesia is the biggest Muslim state, and liberal democracy there is starting to take hold - without any recent Western intervention.

Anyway, this isn't about defending Islam. It's about defending our own secular traditions. People are free to subject themselves to any ethical system they choose as long as it doesn't keep the neighbours up at night.

This isn't some vague, abstract principle, it's the cornerstone of the Western liberal tradition. It defines, if you want, "our own culture". It's the very reason you defend the West, and its the basis of every measurement we use to assess the values of others.

If you don't practice it in action, you might as well join the Taliban.

The gates of the church will always remain open.

The religious and ethical principles of Islam are a parody of judaism and christianity.
Philosophically and ethically Islam is a stuck-in-the-mud retard.
Artistically, in literature and music, it is negligible to mindlessly hostile and death-thirsty
Socially, it is the dark, tribal badlands of humanity.
Politically, it is a furtive to wild-eyed idiocy.
Economically, Islam is buggered.
It stand for sociopathy - complete incomprehension of how the world has changed around it in 1400 years.

Sorry, old chap, is this another never ever ever assessment?

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Karnal

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Re: aboriginal muslim scholars of the 1600's
Reply #71 - Jul 12^th, 2012 at 10:46am

freediver wrote on Jul 11^th, 2012 at 10:09pm:

Thanks to Yadda for this little gem. This video is from the USA. it was shot in an amusement park. Apparently, the people throwing whatever they can pick up at the group are Muslims who object to their right to speak their mind.

Karnal, how do you think we should respond to this sort of thing? Self censorship?

Oh no, I think we need a concerted PR campaign to drum up hatred, kill them all, let Gud sort them out, and then - censor them.

It's strange to see you join the Yadda/Soren combo, Freediver. I always thought they were more of a small backroom act.

I assumed your view of the world was bigger.

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Soren

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Re: aboriginal muslim scholars of the 1600's
Reply #72 - Jul 12^th, 2012 at 10:55am

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 12^th, 2012 at 6:09am:

I am critical of both in fact - they are both violent fiction.

...

I thought i explained earlier that i dont have the indoctrination to read the xtian bible "properly" I see it like the koran - all literal. I dont know which bits are figurative same as most ppl with the koran.

SOB

Fiction... no, wait... literal... no, wait... figurative.. no, wait... Oh, I dunno.... but I know I am critical, and that's all that matters to me, to be critical.
Coz being critical is like thinking...
Isn't it?

SOB

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Karnal

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Re: aboriginal muslim scholars of the 1600's
Reply #73 - Jul 12^th, 2012 at 11:04am

Soren wrote on Jul 11^th, 2012 at 10:42pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 11^th, 2012 at 10:09pm:

Thanks to Yadda for this little gem. This video is from the USA. it was shot in an amusement park. Apparently, the people throwing whatever they can pick up at the group are Muslims who object to their right to speak their mind.

Karnal, how do you think we should respond to this sort of thing? Self censorship?

My sense is that these stupid Muslims think that everyone is a multiculti pussy like Karnal and so when the Muslms get ripped into, in response to their intolerable intolerance as it happened in Iraq, Afghanistan, Cronulla, Norway, they will be just stunned.
Most people in the West are not ABC listening, Drum reading, hand wringing social workers.

Oh, I'm fully aware of that, old boy. Handwringing social workers like me are a cottage industry. Mind you, we're happy to share our ABC with you for Classical breakfast.

You think the Cronullas riots were a response the Muselman's intolerable intolerance? The crowd targeted Lebanese Christians and Indians - anyone with a tint. You could get ripped into if you had a bit of a tan too.

Now I know you don't support collective action like this, old boy. You just like to cheer from the sidelines.

I don't know why you bring the West into this. The Cronulla riots were a purely Australian phenomenon. If you'd walked past and opened your thick accented mouth, it's likely you would have copped one as well.

Still, it's good to know which side you're on. After all, that's what this debate seems to be about.

Sides.

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: aboriginal muslim scholars of the 1600's
Reply #74 - Jul 12^th, 2012 at 11:17am

Quote:

As for not knowing what if figurative and literal, unless you read newspapers, fiction novels, instruction manuals, poems, private letters, bills, and road signs the same way, then the old excuse of not knowing doesn't fly. Either that or you have no comprehension of written English.

Well if i take it that the stuff thats obviously "magic" or is too violent to be literal is figurative then we have to take the koran the same way. Its confusing though for someone that isnt indoctrinated. So should we stone gays or behead them or just hate them? Should we give our daughters to strangers @ the door or sell them or marry them off @ a young age?

what do you mean "doesnt fly"? You mean you are indoctrinated so its obvious to you? Why isnt the koran obvious too then? Even ppl of either religion get confused as to whats literal. the catholics think they are actually eating somebodies flesh and drinking their blood. Some think a personal jihad is a literal jihad. Some think its okay to destroy this planet because in the end we will get another one.

Quote:

They are representative of the problems with Islam, and why the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are still dragging on, and why people get nervous if an unaccompanied bag is left on a bus.

They are representative of their particular sect of islam. Ppl get nervous about a bag on a bus because of the media.

Quote:

Sure, but what do you suggest as an alternative? Self censorship? That we don't call them on their BS in case they kill someone? Would you suggest we treat Nazis the same way?

I suggest we leave them alone. Stop provoking them.. There arent enough here to cause problems even if they were inclined. Quit interfering with them and their oil.

Quote:

That's because Shariah Islamic law, the law Abu and Falah want to bring back and impose on people, has been largely eradicated. But it does still happen and will happen more if people are afraid to shine a light in dark places.

Sharia wont happen here. Im not saying its not a bad thing. Its nasty. However it is not mainstream.

Quote:

If you don't have the balls to call their BS for what it is from the safety of the internet, what hope do you have? When has freedom ever been protected by cowering in the corner?

On other forums I have had debates with muslims but not here because its not a level playing field where i can have a decent conversation with them. Everyone just insults them and puts them on guard so of course they say things that will make you angry. you cant find out the real facts that way imo.

Spot

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