Australian Politics Forum - Australian "values"

Soren

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Re: Australian "values"
Reply #945 - Dec 18^th, 2013 at 7:10am

|dev|null wrote on Dec 17^th, 2013 at 10:28am:

Soren wrote on Dec 17^th, 2013 at 7:47am:

BTW, if there are so many more visa overstayers than boat arrivals - why do the boaties bother with the boats?

Why not buy a plane ticket?? A lot cheaper and safer and thy can still claim asylum.

You need a valid visa to step onto a plane. The Australian Government will not issue one to anybody who looks like they're going to claim Asylum. So, it becomes a catch-22 situation. You can't fly here to claim Asylum with a visa, you cannot get a visa, if you're likely to claim Asylum. The only other way to get here is by boat and so the Australian government is actually creating the market for the people smugglers. Cheesy

Soooo.... why are there so many asylum seekers arriving by plane?

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Australian "values"
Reply #946 - Dec 18^th, 2013 at 9:01am

Emma wrote on Dec 17^th, 2013 at 9:46pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 17^th, 2013 at 4:54pm:

Soren wrote on Dec 17^th, 2013 at 1:46pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 17^th, 2013 at 1:32pm:

The people who come by plane aren't "reffos". They aren't claiming asylum. That's not my opinion, by the way, it's what they actually say. They overstay their visas and then try to blend in with the community. They aren't saying that they are fleeing persecution or war.

In order to become a refugee, one must be seeking asylum.

The people who come by plane are seeking houses and jobs, not asylum.

Boat people, however, are seeking asylum.

"Until recently, the vast majority of asylum seekers applying for protection in Australia arrived originally by air with a valid visa and then applied for asylum at a later date while living in the community.

Exactly!

They don't say anything until they're caught.

They come with a visa, tell everyone they're going home, and then decide to stay.

They don't say "Help me please" at the airport, do they? Why not?

They go straight out into the community, get a job and avoid the authorities at all costs. Dishonest, illegal immigrants. The word 'asylum' isn't mentioned until they get caught.

The boat people, however, make their claim for asylum straight away. Honest, legal asylum seekers.

Jeez I agree with you Gretchen ..

I speak the truth Wink

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Australian "values"
Reply #947 - Dec 18^th, 2013 at 9:09am

Grendel wrote on Dec 17^th, 2013 at 8:38pm:

Life_goes_on wrote on Dec 16^th, 2013 at 11:45pm:

Quote:

Of course ILLEGAL ENTRY etc is mentioned several times in Article 31... you failed to quote it all.

The convention was written with mainly Europe in mind where refugees crossed borders via land routes.

In Australia's case (an island), you're only entering the country illegally if you're on land that's considered Australian territory and you've bypassed the whole customs/immigration process. You're an illegal arrival if you do that.

At sea it's a different matter. You can legally pass through Australian waters without the required docs (passport, visa etc). If you happen across or call up an Australian naval or customs vessel and decide you want to seek asylum and you're happy to put yourself under their care for the trip to shore, then you're not entering Australia illegally.

It's only illegal if you've got your feet on solid ground (i.e. you've entered Australia) and you've bypassed customs and immigration (the exception being DMZs at international airports). Just being in Australian waters doesn't count as far as the definition for illegal entry goes.

Well that doesn't seem to be the actual case.
However being in Australian territory without the proper visa or identification makes you an Illegal Entry... according to the UN... claiming Asylum keeps you from being prosecuted for being an illegal... Roll Eyes

until your status is verified. Grin

If they enter Australia by boat, they're "unauthorised maritime arrivals".

Then, they become "unlawful non-citizens" because of that entry.

The terms "an illegal" or "illegals" do not exist in any official capacity. They are merely terms used by ignorant bigots in order to demonise legal asylum seekers.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Australian "values"
Reply #948 - Dec 18^th, 2013 at 9:14am

Soren wrote on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 7:10am:

|dev|null wrote on Dec 17^th, 2013 at 10:28am:

Soren wrote on Dec 17^th, 2013 at 7:47am:

BTW, if there are so many more visa overstayers than boat arrivals - why do the boaties bother with the boats?

Why not buy a plane ticket?? A lot cheaper and safer and thy can still claim asylum.

You need a valid visa to step onto a plane. The Australian Government will not issue one to anybody who looks like they're going to claim Asylum. So, it becomes a catch-22 situation. You can't fly here to claim Asylum with a visa, you cannot get a visa, if you're likely to claim Asylum. The only other way to get here is by boat and so the Australian government is actually creating the market for the people smugglers. Cheesy

Soooo.... why are there so many asylum seekers arriving by plane?

They aren't asylum seekers when they arrive by plane. They're tourists.

It's only when they get caught, living in Australia with an expired visa, that they claim asylum as an excuse not to be sent home.

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Soren

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Re: Australian "values"
Reply #949 - Dec 18^th, 2013 at 9:24am

Whether they wait for their visa to expire or not is immaterial to the point that the Australian government does give visas to people which then claim asylum.

It would be not in their interest, btw, to lessen their chances of successful asylum claim by breaching one or more of their visa conditions first (working, etc) or waiting to claim asylum until after becoming unlawful non-citizens.

In any case, the point is that about half the asylum seekers come with a passport and a visa.
The boaties destroy their IDs so their stories cannot be verified. Especially the rich Iranians.

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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 139030 Gender:	Re: Australian "values" Reply #950 - Dec 18^th, 2013 at 10:24am Soren wrote on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 9:24am: The boaties destroy their IDs so their stories cannot be verified. Sounds like something a genuine refugee would do. If the authorities don't know who they are or exactly where they come from, they can't send them back to the persecution they are fleeing. Makes sense.
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Soren

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Re: Australian "values"
Reply #951 - Dec 18^th, 2013 at 11:29am

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 10:24am:

Soren wrote on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 9:24am:

The boaties destroy their IDs so their stories cannot be verified.

Sounds like something a genuine refugee would do.

If the authorities don't know who they are or exactly where they come from, they can't send them back to the persecution they are fleeing.

Makes sense.

Why would they be sent back if they are genuinely persecuted??

It doesn't make sense to destroy your ID if you are genuine.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Australian "values"
Reply #952 - Dec 18^th, 2013 at 12:02pm

Soren wrote on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 11:29am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 10:24am:

Soren wrote on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 9:24am:

The boaties destroy their IDs so their stories cannot be verified.

Sounds like something a genuine refugee would do.

If the authorities don't know who they are or exactly where they come from, they can't send them back to the persecution they are fleeing.

Makes sense.

Why would they be sent back if they are genuinely persecuted??

It doesn't make sense to destroy your ID if you are genuine.

They're preparing for the worst-case scenario.

There's no guarantee that they'll be granted asylum.

If they aren't, and they have their ID, they'll be sent straight back to where they came from.

If they don't have any ID, the chances of them going back to the exact same place they left is greatly diminished.

Destroying ID makes perfect sense if you're a genuine refugee.

Also, arriving in Australia without ID means they can start over fresh with a new identity.

This decreases their chances of being tracked down by authorities from their country of origin.

Yep, destroying ID makes perfect sense if you're a genuine refugee fleeing persecution.

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Soren

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Re: Australian "values"
Reply #953 - Dec 18^th, 2013 at 1:22pm

Destroying your ID makes sense if you want to stay, whether you are genuine or not.

And that's the big problem.

There is no way of telling the fakes from the genuines if all you have is their own sob stories - rehearsed well in advance - to go on. This is why they are called country shoppers and queue jumpers: you can't reliably verify whether they are genuine refugees or not.

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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 139030 Gender:	Re: Australian "values" Reply #954 - Dec 18^th, 2013 at 1:25pm Soren wrote on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 1:22pm: Destroying your ID makes sense if you want to stay, whether you are genuine or not. Agreed.
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Soren

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Re: Australian "values"
Reply #955 - Dec 18^th, 2013 at 1:27pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 12:02pm:

This decreases their chances of being tracked down by authorities from their country of origin.

They are hiding their identities FROM US! If they were targeted by the Taliban or SAVAK, the ASIO boys could do a much better job of giving them a new ID.
Or do you think the Talibs and the SAVAK guys are after semi-literate goatherd hiding in Tasmania?

You are not thinking, you are fantasising.

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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 139030 Gender:	Re: Australian "values" Reply #956 - Dec 18^th, 2013 at 1:29pm Soren wrote on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 1:27pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 12:02pm: This decreases their chances of being tracked down by authorities from their country of origin. They are hiding their identities FROM US! They are hiding their identities from everyone.
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Soren

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Re: Australian "values"
Reply #957 - Dec 18^th, 2013 at 1:31pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 1:25pm:

Soren wrote on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 1:22pm:

Destroying your ID makes sense if you want to stay, whether you are genuine or not.

Agreed.

It is not in our interest to allow non-genuine refugees to gain permanent residency under false pretences.

Not to mention that it is grossly unfair to take the place of a genuine refugee.

SO it is entirely correct to say that if you come without ID, you will never be given the right to settle here.

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Soren

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Re: Australian "values"
Reply #958 - Dec 18^th, 2013 at 1:32pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 1:29pm:

Soren wrote on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 1:27pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 12:02pm:

This decreases their chances of being tracked down by authorities from their country of origin.

They are hiding their identities FROM US!

They are hiding their identities from everyone.

They are asking us for help but will not tell us who they are?!?

Brilliant.

Send them all to PNG.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Australian "values"
Reply #959 - Dec 18^th, 2013 at 1:34pm

Soren wrote on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 1:31pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 1:25pm:

Soren wrote on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 1:22pm:

Destroying your ID makes sense if you want to stay, whether you are genuine or not.

Agreed.

It is not in our interest to allow non-genuine refugees to gain permanent residency under false pretences.

Absolutely agree.

Not to mention that it is grossly unfair to take the place of a genuine refugee.

Absolutely agree.

SO it is entirely correct to say that if you come without ID, you will never be given the right to settle here.

Absolutely disagree.

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