Australian Politics Forum - LNP loons want to burn science at the Stake?

tonegunman1

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Re: LNP loons want to burn science at the Stake?
Reply #45 - Jul 18^th, 2012 at 2:43pm

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 1:30pm:

tonegunman1 wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 1:15pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 11:01am:

progressiveslol wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 10:36am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:09am:

tonegunman1 wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:04am:

Science is fixed...our understanding of it is not.
To say that our understanding of science does not require questioning...is just as "looney" as those who say things like people want to burn science at the stake. These attitudes show, if anything, a disrespect and ignorance of science. Science is built around the questioning of what is "known" and disproving and confirming hypotheses. Majority does not rule or rule indefinitely. Science often swaps majority and minority opinions even where those minority opinions have at one time been ridiculed by the majority. If you just want science as it stands to be accepted, because you agree with it, then what you have is religion not science.

It seems a lot of ppl here think you should know everything and if you dont then you are stupid. Luckily scientists dont think that way. Luckily its not mainstream either.

SOB

Science is not done by consensus, it is done via skepticism and empirical data. The catastrophic climate pseudo science is done via gate-keeping, homogenized data, non-empirical data and jump on the weather is climate band wagon.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1342357146/19#19

tonegunman1 wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:04am:

Science is fixed...our understanding of it is not.
To say that our understanding of science does not require questioning...is just as "looney" as those who say things like people want to burn science at the stake. These attitudes show, if anything, a disrespect and ignorance of science. Science is built around the questioning of what is "known" and disproving and confirming hypotheses. Majority does not rule or rule indefinitely. Science often swaps majority and minority opinions even where those minority opinions have at one time been ridiculed by the majority. If you just want science as it stands to be accepted, because you agree with it, then what you have is religion not science.

I agree that we teach, what is thought to be the best "known knowledge" at the time AND also teach students to question those "known knowns", thereby proving or disproving those hypotheses!

But, the LNP LOONS are saying, don't teach the best "known known" of our day, which makes it difficult or impossible to test the science behind the theory!

I think this is to stray into generality when the argument, as I understand it, is specific to climate change science.
Certainly climate change is by a long way the best funded but subject to the least rigor.

I would suggest there is much more rigor in Climate Science, than there is in the thinking of these LNP LOONS!

And, if the best current "known knowledge" on Climate Change, turns out to be correct, then we will need to throw everything at the problem and I mean everything!

Perhaps, we could build a wall, to keep out the worst effects?
Made of Looney Politicians?
Yes, I know, only (half) joking?

To be fair the Labs and greens have introduced a carbon tax to prevent this senario caused by our use (mostly) of fossil fuel ...however their methods are a little strange considering if anyone has access to the best available science its our own government.
It does not apply to petrol that releases CO2...major emitter. This leaves mostly (evil) coal that Gillard and Co are happy to dig up at record levels to be sent overseas to be burnt and where it will emit CO2...no charge for this CO2, or perhaps coal does not expel CO2 when burnt outside Australia or does not have any impact on the environment. Domestic consumers will be charged extra for coal fired power but will be more than compensated at the level of being better off (so the story goes) for using that power. Some would say that's not much incentive. We do have land clearing legislation because trees and vegetation store carbon but God help any vegetation that sits atop a coal seam or a development. However we have a global atmosphere where our climate does not retain the benefits of domestic CO2 reductions so I'm not sure how any of this will avert global climate change. And I am also not sure how any of this will save us regardless.

Case in point world coal consumption from 1990 to 2030 has coal going from about 70 quadrillion Btu to about 180 quadrillion Btu (most growth from China).

And oil (most growth from non-OECD countries)...
From 1996 to 2012 - about 4 mb/d to about 25 mb/d.

So whether your right or wrong there is no salvation for you in the figures on the "consensus" view.

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perceptions_now

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Re: LNP loons want to burn science at the Stake?
Reply #46 - Jul 18^th, 2012 at 8:08pm

tonegunman1 wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 2:43pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 1:30pm:

tonegunman1 wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 1:15pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 11:01am:

progressiveslol wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 10:36am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:09am:

tonegunman1 wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:04am:

Science is fixed...our understanding of it is not.
To say that our understanding of science does not require questioning...is just as "looney" as those who say things like people want to burn science at the stake. These attitudes show, if anything, a disrespect and ignorance of science. Science is built around the questioning of what is "known" and disproving and confirming hypotheses. Majority does not rule or rule indefinitely. Science often swaps majority and minority opinions even where those minority opinions have at one time been ridiculed by the majority. If you just want science as it stands to be accepted, because you agree with it, then what you have is religion not science.

It seems a lot of ppl here think you should know everything and if you dont then you are stupid. Luckily scientists dont think that way. Luckily its not mainstream either.

SOB

Science is not done by consensus, it is done via skepticism and empirical data. The catastrophic climate pseudo science is done via gate-keeping, homogenized data, non-empirical data and jump on the weather is climate band wagon.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1342357146/19#19

tonegunman1 wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:04am:

Science is fixed...our understanding of it is not.
To say that our understanding of science does not require questioning...is just as "looney" as those who say things like people want to burn science at the stake. These attitudes show, if anything, a disrespect and ignorance of science. Science is built around the questioning of what is "known" and disproving and confirming hypotheses. Majority does not rule or rule indefinitely. Science often swaps majority and minority opinions even where those minority opinions have at one time been ridiculed by the majority. If you just want science as it stands to be accepted, because you agree with it, then what you have is religion not science.

I agree that we teach, what is thought to be the best "known knowledge" at the time AND also teach students to question those "known knowns", thereby proving or disproving those hypotheses!

But, the LNP LOONS are saying, don't teach the best "known known" of our day, which makes it difficult or impossible to test the science behind the theory!

I think this is to stray into generality when the argument, as I understand it, is specific to climate change science.
Certainly climate change is by a long way the best funded but subject to the least rigor.

I would suggest there is much more rigor in Climate Science, than there is in the thinking of these LNP LOONS!

And, if the best current "known knowledge" on Climate Change, turns out to be correct, then we will need to throw everything at the problem and I mean everything!

Perhaps, we could build a wall, to keep out the worst effects?
Made of Looney Politicians?
Yes, I know, only (half) joking?

To be fair the Labs and greens have introduced a carbon tax to prevent this senario caused by our use (mostly) of fossil fuel ...however their methods are a little strange considering if anyone has access to the best available science its our own government.
It does not apply to petrol that releases CO2...major emitter. This leaves mostly (evil) coal that Gillard and Co are happy to dig up at record levels to be sent overseas to be burnt and where it will emit CO2...no charge for this CO2, or perhaps coal does not expel CO2 when burnt outside Australia or does not have any impact on the environment. Domestic consumers will be charged extra for coal fired power but will be more than compensated at the level of being better off (so the story goes) for using that power. Some would say that's not much incentive. We do have land clearing legislation because trees and vegetation store carbon but God help any vegetation that sits atop a coal seam or a development. However we have a global atmosphere where our climate does not retain the benefits of domestic CO2 reductions so I'm not sure how any of this will avert global climate change. And I am also not sure how any of this will save us regardless.

Case in point world coal consumption from 1990 to 2030 has coal going from about 70 quadrillion Btu to about 180 quadrillion Btu (most growth from China).

And oil (most growth from non-OECD countries)...
From 1996 to 2012 - about 4 mb/d to about 25 mb/d.

So whether your right or wrong there is no salvation for you in the figures on the "consensus" view.

To be fair, no matter what Labor may say, their Carbon Tax is primarily a TAX, which is designed to increase government revenues, as Taxes in other areas of the Economy go into decline, which will/is happening at the same time as the usual expenses are increasing, particularly those expenses related to an AGING POPULATION!

The dilemma's of re-balancing of government income/expenditure will continue under the Liberals & Nationals when they win the next election, as there are no magic bullets.

I would also suggest that the salvation you mention is for us, not just me, but given the lack of "Political consensus" on the best current "known knowledge" on Climate Change, which is code for "self interest", I see little chance of any real salvation coming in time, for us!

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Armchair_Politician

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Re: LNP loons want to burn science at the Stake?
Reply #47 - Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:05pm

Good onya Newman! So sick of the climate change lobby forcing their view down our throats (and those of our children) and screwing over anyone who dares to speak out against their views. Until the facts of this hysteria is proven (I see it as being much like the feared but unrealised Y2K bug) scientifically beyond doubt, it should be treated as and taught to our children as a theory, not gospel.

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perceptions_now

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Re: LNP loons want to burn science at the Stake?
Reply #48 - Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:42pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:05pm:

Good onya Newman! So sick of the climate change lobby forcing their view down our throats (and those of our children) and screwing over anyone who dares to speak out against their views. Until the facts of this hysteria is proven (I see it as being much like the feared but unrealised Y2K bug) scientifically beyond doubt, it should be treated as and taught to our children as a theory, not gospel.

So, you are agreeing with these LNP LOONS, students should not be taught the best "known knowledge", at this time?

Groan!

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Armchair_Politician

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Re: LNP loons want to burn science at the Stake?
Reply #49 - Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:46pm

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:42pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:05pm:

Good onya Newman! So sick of the climate change lobby forcing their view down our throats (and those of our children) and screwing over anyone who dares to speak out against their views. Until the facts of this hysteria is proven (I see it as being much like the feared but unrealised Y2K bug) scientifically beyond doubt, it should be treated as and taught to our children as a theory, not gospel.

So, you are agreeing with these LNP LOONS, students should not be taught the best "known knowledge", at this time?

Groan!

It's far from conclusive. Read about the huge iceberg that broke off a Greenland glacier recently? Scientists for climate change got their panties in a knot claiming it was due to climate change but also said they can't prove it. Groan!

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progressiveslol

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Re: LNP loons want to burn science at the Stake?
Reply #50 - Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:52pm

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:42pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:05pm:

Good onya Newman! So sick of the climate change lobby forcing their view down our throats (and those of our children) and screwing over anyone who dares to speak out against their views. Until the facts of this hysteria is proven (I see it as being much like the feared but unrealised Y2K bug) scientifically beyond doubt, it should be treated as and taught to our children as a theory, not gospel.

So, you are agreeing with these LNP LOONS, students should not be taught the best "known knowledge", at this time?

Groan!

Your so called best known knowledge is far from being ready (or far from being best) to be taught in school or to be used by the IPCC who is in fact starting to back track from their catastrophic (political) statements from the past and with a peer-reviewed paper showing their 0.7degree global temp rise over a century, in fact being closer to 0.4.

The climate science today is pure pseudo science, not worthy of educating children with. Never should a pseudo science be taught in school.

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perceptions_now

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Re: LNP loons want to burn science at the Stake?
Reply #51 - Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:59pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:46pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:42pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:05pm:

Good onya Newman! So sick of the climate change lobby forcing their view down our throats (and those of our children) and screwing over anyone who dares to speak out against their views. Until the facts of this hysteria is proven (I see it as being much like the feared but unrealised Y2K bug) scientifically beyond doubt, it should be treated as and taught to our children as a theory, not gospel.

So, you are agreeing with these LNP LOONS, students should not be taught the best "known knowledge", at this time?

Groan!

It's far from conclusive. Read about the huge iceberg that broke off a Greenland glacier recently? Scientists for climate change got their panties in a knot claiming it was due to climate change but also said they can't prove it. Groan!

Is anything ever conclusive?

The current Climate Change theory is certainly the best scientific "known knowledge", at this time!

That said, IF it or anything else, can't be taught to students, it hasn't got much chance of being proved or disproved!

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Armchair_Politician

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Re: LNP loons want to burn science at the Stake?
Reply #52 - Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:59pm

progressiveslol wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:52pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:42pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:05pm:

Good onya Newman! So sick of the climate change lobby forcing their view down our throats (and those of our children) and screwing over anyone who dares to speak out against their views. Until the facts of this hysteria is proven (I see it as being much like the feared but unrealised Y2K bug) scientifically beyond doubt, it should be treated as and taught to our children as a theory, not gospel.

So, you are agreeing with these LNP LOONS, students should not be taught the best "known knowledge", at this time?

Groan!

Your so called best known knowledge is far from being ready (or far from being best) to be taught in school or to be used by the IPCC who is in fact starting to back track from their catastrophic (political) statements from the past and with a peer-reviewed paper showing their 0.7degree global temp rise over a century, in fact being closer to 0.4.

The climate science today is pure pseudo science, not worthy of educating children with. Never should a pseudo science be taught in school.

Thank goodness they aren't letting Tim Flannery teach our kids anything!

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Armchair_Politician

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Re: LNP loons want to burn science at the Stake?
Reply #53 - Jul 18^th, 2012 at 10:00pm

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:59pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:46pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:42pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:05pm:

Good onya Newman! So sick of the climate change lobby forcing their view down our throats (and those of our children) and screwing over anyone who dares to speak out against their views. Until the facts of this hysteria is proven (I see it as being much like the feared but unrealised Y2K bug) scientifically beyond doubt, it should be treated as and taught to our children as a theory, not gospel.

So, you are agreeing with these LNP LOONS, students should not be taught the best "known knowledge", at this time?

Groan!

It's far from conclusive. Read about the huge iceberg that broke off a Greenland glacier recently? Scientists for climate change got their panties in a knot claiming it was due to climate change but also said they can't prove it. Groan!

Is anything ever conclusive?

The current Climate Change theory is certainly the best scientific "known knowledge", at this time!

That said, IF it or anything else, can't be taught to students, it hasn't got much chance of being proved or disproved!

Until it's proven, don't teach it. I fail to see how a theory can stand little chance of being proven because it isn't taught to our kids! Your argument makes no sense whatsoever...

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progressiveslol

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Re: LNP loons want to burn science at the Stake?
Reply #54 - Jul 18^th, 2012 at 10:05pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 10:00pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:59pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:46pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:42pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:05pm:

Good onya Newman! So sick of the climate change lobby forcing their view down our throats (and those of our children) and screwing over anyone who dares to speak out against their views. Until the facts of this hysteria is proven (I see it as being much like the feared but unrealised Y2K bug) scientifically beyond doubt, it should be treated as and taught to our children as a theory, not gospel.

So, you are agreeing with these LNP LOONS, students should not be taught the best "known knowledge", at this time?

Groan!

It's far from conclusive. Read about the huge iceberg that broke off a Greenland glacier recently? Scientists for climate change got their panties in a knot claiming it was due to climate change but also said they can't prove it. Groan!

Is anything ever conclusive?

The current Climate Change theory is certainly the best scientific "known knowledge", at this time!

That said, IF it or anything else, can't be taught to students, it hasn't got much chance of being proved or disproved!

Until it's proven, don't teach it. I fail to see how a theory can stand little chance of being proven because it isn't taught to our kids! Your argument makes no sense whatsoever...

A theory can be taught if it stands with the empirical evidence.

Mann-made climate change only stand by failed models. No empirical evidence stands with it. It must not be taught until the mann-made climate science comes of age and becomes a real science with real empirical evidence and very little gatekeeping.

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perceptions_now

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Re: LNP loons want to burn science at the Stake?
Reply #55 - Jul 18^th, 2012 at 10:06pm

progressiveslol wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:52pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:42pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:05pm:

Good onya Newman! So sick of the climate change lobby forcing their view down our throats (and those of our children) and screwing over anyone who dares to speak out against their views. Until the facts of this hysteria is proven (I see it as being much like the feared but unrealised Y2K bug) scientifically beyond doubt, it should be treated as and taught to our children as a theory, not gospel.

So, you are agreeing with these LNP LOONS, students should not be taught the best "known knowledge", at this time?

Groan!

Your so called best known knowledge is far from being ready (or far from being best) to be taught in school or to be used by the IPCC who is in fact starting to back track from their catastrophic (political) statements from the past and with a peer-reviewed paper showing their 0.7degree global temp rise over a century, in fact being closer to 0.4.

The climate science today is pure pseudo science, not worthy of educating children with. Never should a pseudo science be taught in school.

It seems you are part of or one of, the LNP LOONS!

The science is certainly far from psuedo, but the Pollies are certainly full of more -
Credible
Reliable
Abundant
Paradoxes

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perceptions_now

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Re: LNP loons want to burn science at the Stake?
Reply #56 - Jul 18^th, 2012 at 10:14pm

progressiveslol wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 10:05pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 10:00pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:59pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:46pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:42pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:05pm:

Good onya Newman! So sick of the climate change lobby forcing their view down our throats (and those of our children) and screwing over anyone who dares to speak out against their views. Until the facts of this hysteria is proven (I see it as being much like the feared but unrealised Y2K bug) scientifically beyond doubt, it should be treated as and taught to our children as a theory, not gospel.

So, you are agreeing with these LNP LOONS, students should not be taught the best "known knowledge", at this time?

Groan!

It's far from conclusive. Read about the huge iceberg that broke off a Greenland glacier recently? Scientists for climate change got their panties in a knot claiming it was due to climate change but also said they can't prove it. Groan!

Is anything ever conclusive?

The current Climate Change theory is certainly the best scientific "known knowledge", at this time!

That said, IF it or anything else, can't be taught to students, it hasn't got much chance of being proved or disproved!

Until it's proven, don't teach it. I fail to see how a theory can stand little chance of being proven because it isn't taught to our kids! Your argument makes no sense whatsoever...

A theory can be taught if it stands with the empirical evidence.

Mann-made climate change only stand by failed models. No empirical evidence stands with it. It must not be taught until the mann-made climate science comes of age and becomes a real science with real empirical evidence and very little gatekeeping.

1) There is a mountain of evidence, which is why it is widely accepted in scientific circles.

2) Yes, it should be taught, to prove or disprove & to firm up what options, may still be useable to offset the effects of the likely Climate Changes that are coming over the next 10, 20, 50,100, 200 years etc!

As I have said, the Pollies & their helpers are simply full of more -
Credible
Reliable
Abundant
Paradoxes

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progressiveslol

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Re: LNP loons want to burn science at the Stake?
Reply #57 - Jul 18^th, 2012 at 10:25pm

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 10:14pm:

progressiveslol wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 10:05pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 10:00pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:59pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:46pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:42pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:05pm:

Good onya Newman! So sick of the climate change lobby forcing their view down our throats (and those of our children) and screwing over anyone who dares to speak out against their views. Until the facts of this hysteria is proven (I see it as being much like the feared but unrealised Y2K bug) scientifically beyond doubt, it should be treated as and taught to our children as a theory, not gospel.

So, you are agreeing with these LNP LOONS, students should not be taught the best "known knowledge", at this time?

Groan!

It's far from conclusive. Read about the huge iceberg that broke off a Greenland glacier recently? Scientists for climate change got their panties in a knot claiming it was due to climate change but also said they can't prove it. Groan!

Is anything ever conclusive?

The current Climate Change theory is certainly the best scientific "known knowledge", at this time!

That said, IF it or anything else, can't be taught to students, it hasn't got much chance of being proved or disproved!

Until it's proven, don't teach it. I fail to see how a theory can stand little chance of being proven because it isn't taught to our kids! Your argument makes no sense whatsoever...

A theory can be taught if it stands with the empirical evidence.

Mann-made climate change only stand by failed models. No empirical evidence stands with it. It must not be taught until the mann-made climate science comes of age and becomes a real science with real empirical evidence and very little gatekeeping.

1) There is a mountain of evidence, which is why it is widely accepted in scientific circles.

2) Yes, it should be taught, to prove or disprove & to firm up what options, may still be useable to offset the effects of the likely Climate Changes that are coming over the next 10, 20, 50,100, 200 years etc!

As I have said, the Pollies & their helpers are simply full of more -
Credible
Reliable
Abundant
Paradoxes

Mann-made climate science is far from ready to be taught. You teach children what is known, not what is modeled. A best known knowledge is pathetic just by the fact you said it.

The only thing in school to be taught of it is that it is a science that has the capacity of a 5 yr old childs brain and that it is far too early to be taught in depth.

Once you teach it in school, all you are going to do is stifle the science and box it into your now failed ideology. I am sure that is the goal, not doubt at all. It is part of the gatekeeping that goes on in that pathetic ideology.

Why not push for the government to give equal funding to an anti-co2 climate science to come up with the answers. The dogma had well and truly set in, but is being eroded.

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perceptions_now

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Re: LNP loons want to burn science at the Stake?
Reply #58 - Jul 18^th, 2012 at 10:32pm

progressiveslol wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 10:25pm: