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Quantum

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #135 - Jul 27^th, 2012 at 9:28pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Jul 27^th, 2012 at 8:18pm:

Quantum wrote on Jul 27^th, 2012 at 3:22pm:

adelcrow wrote on Jul 27^th, 2012 at 2:54pm:

I dont know what the stats are but I know from my own experience that in the wealthy cities throughout Asia, Toyota, Honda, BMW and Mercedes are the cars you see more than any other.
That kinda shows why Ford and GM are wasting their time and should be closed down asap.
Even the smarter yanks would rather drive a Jap or German car if given the choice

GM is in the number one spot for car sales. Toyota will probably take that back now that their factories are back online (Japan earthquake), but GM are still very much up there.

The big four are ; GM, Toyota, Nissan/Renault, and VW. Anyone of those four could take the number one spot in the next few years.

The next band is Hyundai and Ford with everyone else fighting for the scraps.

Globally Mercedes and BMW are nothing in car sales. Usually only selling about 1/6 of the big four, and about 1/4 of The next two (Hyundai and Ford).

Of course BMW and Mercs sell less in quantity simply because they are aiming for the premium end of the market. However the important point to note is the fact that BMW and Mercs sell ALL around the world whereas Ford and Holden sell to who ?

You serious? Ford sell all around the world. GM also sell around the world under many different names including Holden. So what exactly is the question here?

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John Smith

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #136 - Jul 27^th, 2012 at 9:38pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Jul 27^th, 2012 at 8:18pm:

Quantum wrote on Jul 27^th, 2012 at 3:22pm:

adelcrow wrote on Jul 27^th, 2012 at 2:54pm:

I dont know what the stats are but I know from my own experience that in the wealthy cities throughout Asia, Toyota, Honda, BMW and Mercedes are the cars you see more than any other.
That kinda shows why Ford and GM are wasting their time and should be closed down asap.
Even the smarter yanks would rather drive a Jap or German car if given the choice

GM is in the number one spot for car sales. Toyota will probably take that back now that their factories are back online (Japan earthquake), but GM are still very much up there.

The big four are ; GM, Toyota, Nissan/Renault, and VW. Anyone of those four could take the number one spot in the next few years.

The next band is Hyundai and Ford with everyone else fighting for the scraps.

Globally Mercedes and BMW are nothing in car sales. Usually only selling about 1/6 of the big four, and about 1/4 of The next two (Hyundai and Ford).

Of course BMW and Mercs sell less in quantity simply because they are aiming for the premium end of the market. However the important point to note is the fact that BMW and Mercs sell ALL around the world whereas Ford and Holden sell to who ?

Your kidding right? GM is Holden, is Opel and probably goes under a few more badges as well ... I doubt there are many countries that DON'T sell Ford or GM Vehicles, regardless of their badges

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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Sir lastnail

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #137 - Jul 27^th, 2012 at 9:53pm

Quantum wrote on Jul 27^th, 2012 at 9:28pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Jul 27^th, 2012 at 8:18pm:

Quantum wrote on Jul 27^th, 2012 at 3:22pm:

adelcrow wrote on Jul 27^th, 2012 at 2:54pm:

I dont know what the stats are but I know from my own experience that in the wealthy cities throughout Asia, Toyota, Honda, BMW and Mercedes are the cars you see more than any other.
That kinda shows why Ford and GM are wasting their time and should be closed down asap.
Even the smarter yanks would rather drive a Jap or German car if given the choice

GM is in the number one spot for car sales. Toyota will probably take that back now that their factories are back online (Japan earthquake), but GM are still very much up there.

The big four are ; GM, Toyota, Nissan/Renault, and VW. Anyone of those four could take the number one spot in the next few years.

The next band is Hyundai and Ford with everyone else fighting for the scraps.

Globally Mercedes and BMW are nothing in car sales. Usually only selling about 1/6 of the big four, and about 1/4 of The next two (Hyundai and Ford).

Of course BMW and Mercs sell less in quantity simply because they are aiming for the premium end of the market. However the important point to note is the fact that BMW and Mercs sell ALL around the world whereas Ford and Holden sell to who ?

You serious? Ford sell all around the world. GM also sell around the world under many different names including Holden. So what exactly is the question here?

Which Australian made Ford and GM cars are sold all around the world ??

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In August 2021, Newcastle Coroner Karen Dilks recorded that Lisa Shaw had died “due to complications of an AstraZeneca COVID vaccination”.

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Quantum

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #138 - Jul 27^th, 2012 at 10:10pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Jul 27^th, 2012 at 9:53pm:

Quantum wrote on Jul 27^th, 2012 at 9:28pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Jul 27^th, 2012 at 8:18pm:

Quantum wrote on Jul 27^th, 2012 at 3:22pm:

adelcrow wrote on Jul 27^th, 2012 at 2:54pm:

I dont know what the stats are but I know from my own experience that in the wealthy cities throughout Asia, Toyota, Honda, BMW and Mercedes are the cars you see more than any other.
That kinda shows why Ford and GM are wasting their time and should be closed down asap.
Even the smarter yanks would rather drive a Jap or German car if given the choice

GM is in the number one spot for car sales. Toyota will probably take that back now that their factories are back online (Japan earthquake), but GM are still very much up there.

The big four are ; GM, Toyota, Nissan/Renault, and VW. Anyone of those four could take the number one spot in the next few years.

The next band is Hyundai and Ford with everyone else fighting for the scraps.

Globally Mercedes and BMW are nothing in car sales. Usually only selling about 1/6 of the big four, and about 1/4 of The next two (Hyundai and Ford).

Of course BMW and Mercs sell less in quantity simply because they are aiming for the premium end of the market. However the important point to note is the fact that BMW and Mercs sell ALL around the world whereas Ford and Holden sell to who ?

You serious? Ford sell all around the world. GM also sell around the world under many different names including Holden. So what exactly is the question here?

Which Australian made Ford and GM cars are sold all around the world ??

That's irrelevant actually, as you are comparing one division of a major company to the full global sales of another. So what exactly is the point of this inquiry?

Having said that, if we were to look then we would find that the Australian companies do in fact export a lot of cars. They are often sold under different names, but the Australian divisions do export to Europe, Asia, America etc.

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Sir lastnail

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #139 - Jul 27^th, 2012 at 10:16pm

Quantum wrote on Jul 27^th, 2012 at 10:10pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Jul 27^th, 2012 at 9:53pm:

Quantum wrote on Jul 27^th, 2012 at 9:28pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Jul 27^th, 2012 at 8:18pm:

Quantum wrote on Jul 27^th, 2012 at 3:22pm:

adelcrow wrote on Jul 27^th, 2012 at 2:54pm:

I dont know what the stats are but I know from my own experience that in the wealthy cities throughout Asia, Toyota, Honda, BMW and Mercedes are the cars you see more than any other.
That kinda shows why Ford and GM are wasting their time and should be closed down asap.
Even the smarter yanks would rather drive a Jap or German car if given the choice

GM is in the number one spot for car sales. Toyota will probably take that back now that their factories are back online (Japan earthquake), but GM are still very much up there.

The big four are ; GM, Toyota, Nissan/Renault, and VW. Anyone of those four could take the number one spot in the next few years.

The next band is Hyundai and Ford with everyone else fighting for the scraps.

Globally Mercedes and BMW are nothing in car sales. Usually only selling about 1/6 of the big four, and about 1/4 of The next two (Hyundai and Ford).

Of course BMW and Mercs sell less in quantity simply because they are aiming for the premium end of the market. However the important point to note is the fact that BMW and Mercs sell ALL around the world whereas Ford and Holden sell to who ?

You serious? Ford sell all around the world. GM also sell around the world under many different names including Holden. So what exactly is the question here?

Which Australian made Ford and GM cars are sold all around the world ??

That's irrelevant actually, as you are comparing one division of a major company to the full global sales of another. So what exactly is the point of this inquiry?

Having said that, if we were to look then we would find that the Australian companies do in fact export a lot of cars. They are often sold under different names, but the Australian divisions do export to Europe, Asia, America etc.

so why are they retrenching people if as you say they are exporting everywhere ??

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In August 2021, Newcastle Coroner Karen Dilks recorded that Lisa Shaw had died “due to complications of an AstraZeneca COVID vaccination”.

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Sir lastnail

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #140 - Jul 27^th, 2012 at 10:29pm

Look how Holden treats all Australian design innovation into hybrid cars. This is why we keep giving them our hard earned money so they can thumb there nose up at innovation and keep making sh.t that nobody really wants Sad

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2007/s2271918.htm

Quote:

Hybrid hype, but who killed the ECommodore?

Yesterday the Government announced that it would be inject $35 million into a new Toyota hybrid car, the move has prompted many to query the fate of the Ecommodore. Produced by Holden and the CSIRO, the Ecommodore was the first all-Australian hybrid car and the VIP vehicle of the Sydney Olympics, but quickly disappeared.

Transcript
KERRY O'BRIEN, PRESENTER: As the Australian Government throws half a billion dollars at the greening of the Australian car industry and for all the excitement about the prospect of manufacturing a hybrid Toyota in Australia, it may surprise if not annoy you to learn that this is not the first time a local manufacturer has been given Government assistance to develop an environmentally friendly vehicle.

Around 10 years ago, with the writing already on the wall in terms of declining oil supplies and the need to reduce greenhouse emissions, the CSIRO and Holden began working extensively together to produce an all-Australian hybrid Commodore.
The result was the "Ecommodore" which with great fanfare was made the VIP car for the Sydney Olympics.

But when the Olympics were over, Australia's green car idea went absolutely nowhere. Until Australian manufacturers were finally forced to face reality.

watch the video.

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« Last Edit: Jul 27^th, 2012 at 10:39pm by Sir lastnail »

In August 2021, Newcastle Coroner Karen Dilks recorded that Lisa Shaw had died “due to complications of an AstraZeneca COVID vaccination”.

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Prevailing Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 7169 Stop Men	Re: FORD.R.I.P. Reply #141 - Jul 27^th, 2012 at 11:01pm Business has too much freedom.
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Bobby.

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #142 - Jul 27^th, 2012 at 11:07pm

Quantum wrote on Jul 27^th, 2012 at 12:54am:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 26^th, 2012 at 9:15pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 26^th, 2012 at 9:06pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 26^th, 2012 at 8:57pm:

John - have you read this thread?

Why can't Ford make & export the best all electric car in the world?

Ford can't make the best anything in the world .... Holden on the other hand,

I would agree ... make cars that people want and their numbers will turn .... but regardless, we cannot afford to let the auto industry die in Australia ... I think its an essential service ....

Rubbish - if we put money into R&D we could make the best electric car in the world.
Ford & Holden could be a part of it.

Ford and Holden Australia are small time (side point, but why does everyone seem to forget Toyota Australia?). There is no way they can make the best electric car in the world.

The way the system works is that the global companies spend billions (that's illions with a B, not M) in R&D. The Australian companies use the technology developed by the parent companies and incorporate it into their cars. They do very little development of their own.

The cost of designing a fresh sheet car these days is anywhere from about 5 to 10 billions dollars. Toyota, Ford, Holden (and Mitsubishi before they went broke) do not design fresh sheet cars in Australia. Engines, platforms, transmission, are sourced from other models by the parent company. Hence why new cars in Australia only cost about 500-1000 million to design. That's because most of the expensive work has already been done by the parent company.

It is insane to think Ford Australia with their tiny budget could come up with an electric car design better than what the parent company can do. The only realistic option is to wait for the parent company to spend billions coming up with the technology and then incorporating it into their next car. Likewise, the money the Australian government gives to Ford and Holden is nothing compared to the R&D budgets of the parent companies. So even putting all that money into electric car research will still leave them years behind.

Ohh come on - 5 to 10 billions dollars is a number you have pulled out of your backside.
Some people have made all electric cars in their home garages.

The $200 million that JuLiar gave away would have gone a long way
if Ford had matched it & added their R&D that they've already done.

Always excuses from people here.
We need a can do mentality.

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Sir lastnail

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #143 - Jul 28^th, 2012 at 12:25am

Bobby. wrote on Jul 27^th, 2012 at 11:07pm:

Quantum wrote on Jul 27^th, 2012 at 12:54am:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 26^th, 2012 at 9:15pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 26^th, 2012 at 9:06pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 26^th, 2012 at 8:57pm:

John - have you read this thread?

Why can't Ford make & export the best all electric car in the world?

Ford can't make the best anything in the world .... Holden on the other hand,

I would agree ... make cars that people want and their numbers will turn .... but regardless, we cannot afford to let the auto industry die in Australia ... I think its an essential service ....

Rubbish - if we put money into R&D we could make the best electric car in the world.
Ford & Holden could be a part of it.

Ford and Holden Australia are small time (side point, but why does everyone seem to forget Toyota Australia?). There is no way they can make the best electric car in the world.

The way the system works is that the global companies spend billions (that's illions with a B, not M) in R&D. The Australian companies use the technology developed by the parent companies and incorporate it into their cars. They do very little development of their own.

The cost of designing a fresh sheet car these days is anywhere from about 5 to 10 billions dollars. Toyota, Ford, Holden (and Mitsubishi before they went broke) do not design fresh sheet cars in Australia. Engines, platforms, transmission, are sourced from other models by the parent company. Hence why new cars in Australia only cost about 500-1000 million to design. That's because most of the expensive work has already been done by the parent company.

It is insane to think Ford Australia with their tiny budget could come up with an electric car design better than what the parent company can do. The only realistic option is to wait for the parent company to spend billions coming up with the technology and then incorporating it into their next car. Likewise, the money the Australian government gives to Ford and Holden is nothing compared to the R&D budgets of the parent companies. So even putting all that money into electric car research will still leave them years behind.

Ohh come on - 5 to 10 billions dollars is a number you have pulled out of your backside.
Some people have made all electric cars in their home garages.

The $200 million that JuLiar gave away would have gone a long way
if Ford had matched it & added their R&D that they've already done.

Always excuses from people here.
We need a can do mentality.

The CSIRO did it for Holden for nothing which subsequently cost the taxpayer 20 mill in 2000. What did Holden do with this world beating technology ?? Nothing of course except to completely ignore it whilst continuing on building gas guzzlers that nobody really wants anymore Sad

Now, we the tax payers have to compensate Holden for their pig headedness and stupidity Sad

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2007/s2271918.htm

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In August 2021, Newcastle Coroner Karen Dilks recorded that Lisa Shaw had died “due to complications of an AstraZeneca COVID vaccination”.

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Quantum

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #144 - Jul 28^th, 2012 at 12:25am

Bobby. wrote on Jul 27^th, 2012 at 11:07pm:

Quantum wrote on Jul 27^th, 2012 at 12:54am:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 26^th, 2012 at 9:15pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 26^th, 2012 at 9:06pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 26^th, 2012 at 8:57pm:

John - have you read this thread?

Why can't Ford make & export the best all electric car in the world?

Ford can't make the best anything in the world .... Holden on the other hand,

I would agree ... make cars that people want and their numbers will turn .... but regardless, we cannot afford to let the auto industry die in Australia ... I think its an essential service ....

Rubbish - if we put money into R&D we could make the best electric car in the world.
Ford & Holden could be a part of it.

Ford and Holden Australia are small time (side point, but why does everyone seem to forget Toyota Australia?). There is no way they can make the best electric car in the world.

The way the system works is that the global companies spend billions (that's illions with a B, not M) in R&D. The Australian companies use the technology developed by the parent companies and incorporate it into their cars. They do very little development of their own.

The cost of designing a fresh sheet car these days is anywhere from about 5 to 10 billions dollars. Toyota, Ford, Holden (and Mitsubishi before they went broke) do not design fresh sheet cars in Australia. Engines, platforms, transmission, are sourced from other models by the parent company. Hence why new cars in Australia only cost about 500-1000 million to design. That's because most of the expensive work has already been done by the parent company.

It is insane to think Ford Australia with their tiny budget could come up with an electric car design better than what the parent company can do. The only realistic option is to wait for the parent company to spend billions coming up with the technology and then incorporating it into their next car. Likewise, the money the Australian government gives to Ford and Holden is nothing compared to the R&D budgets of the parent companies. So even putting all that money into electric car research will still leave them years behind.

Ohh come on - 5 to 10 billions dollars is a number you have pulled out of your backside.
Some people have made all electric cars in their home garages.

The $200 million that JuLiar gave away would have gone a long way
if Ford had matched it & added their R&D that they've already done.

Always excuses from people here.
We need a can do mentality.

Read up on the auto industry before you accuse people of making stuff up. It cost a fortune to develop a new car from scratch. The current Holden commodore cost 1 billion to develop, and that is with a very large percentage of the car being sourced from other models in the GM empire. It is far from a clean sheet. The last model Camry even cost $350 million just to modify it for Australian conditions. This is a car that was fully designed and just needed to be adapted.

There is a massive difference between making one off prototypes and designing a car that can be produced and sold. Making a new car takes thousands of people years designing and sourcing every part, testing them, redesigning, retesting, redesigning etc. Then the actual factories have to be retooled to make the new car with more designing, contracting, etc taking place. All this has to be done to ever demanding laws. This is why it cost billions, whether you believe it or not.

Does anyone really think that Holden or Ford could make an awesome electric car that is;

Better than anything that runs on petrol;
Can do it all for a few hundred million dollars;
Sell millions of them around the world and make billions of dollars doing so;
But, they don't because they are too dumb and like to run at a loss?

What this forum needs is not a "can do mentality", but a reality Mentality. Too many people have all the answers and no knowledge of the auto industry. This is why they think that everyone explaining the truth of the situation is making excuses.

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« Last Edit: Jul 28^th, 2012 at 12:34am by Quantum »

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Bobby.

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #145 - Jul 28^th, 2012 at 7:59am

Quote:

What this forum needs is not a "can do mentality", but a reality Mentality. Too many people have all the answers and no knowledge of the auto industry.
This is why they think that everyone explaining the truth of the situation is making excuses.

The time for excuses is over.
You forget that the body, suspension & just about everything else can be the same.
People just pull out the old engine, transmission etc & replace
it all with a brushless electric motor & battery.
It's not that hard mate.
That's why some people can do it in their home garages.

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Quantum

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #146 - Jul 28^th, 2012 at 9:41am

Bobby. wrote on Jul 28^th, 2012 at 7:59am:

Quote:

What this forum needs is not a "can do mentality", but a reality Mentality. Too many people have all the answers and no knowledge of the auto industry.
This is why they think that everyone explaining the truth of the situation is making excuses.

The time for excuses is over.
You forget that the body, suspension & just about everything else can be the same.
People just pull out the old engine, transmission etc & replace
it all with a brushless electric motor & battery.
It's not that hard mate.
That's why some people can do it in their home garages.

No it can't.

Electric cars have different weight, weight distribution, and if done properly have the electric motors connected directly to the wheels. This requires total suspension redesign.

Electric cars have the batteries as low as possible to keep the COG down, better cooling, and space saving. This needs a completely different chassis as there is no need for an engine but room needed for these batteries.

What you are talking about are nothing but one off garage jobs. The big manufactures do this all the time. They call them concept cars. They cost thousands, sometimes a few million to make. But when ever they do bring them into production they require massive redesign and testing, as well as huge consideration to cost reduction and manufacturing. This is what cost billions to make happen.

These private garage jobs are significantly inferior to proper manufacturer designed electric cars. They are in no way at a mass production level.

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Sir lastnail

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #147 - Jul 28^th, 2012 at 11:19am

Quantum wrote on Jul 28^th, 2012 at 9:41am:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 28^th, 2012 at 7:59am:

Quote:

What this forum needs is not a "can do mentality", but a reality Mentality. Too many people have all the answers and no knowledge of the auto industry.
This is why they think that everyone explaining the truth of the situation is making excuses.

The time for excuses is over.
You forget that the body, suspension & just about everything else can be the same.
People just pull out the old engine, transmission etc & replace
it all with a brushless electric motor & battery.
It's not that hard mate.
That's why some people can do it in their home garages.

No it can't.

Electric cars have different weight, weight distribution, and if done properly have the electric motors connected directly to the wheels. This requires total suspension redesign.

Electric cars have the batteries as low as possible to keep the COG down, better cooling, and space saving. This needs a completely different chassis as there is no need for an engine but room needed for these batteries.

What you are talking about are nothing but one off garage jobs. The big manufactures do this all the time. They call them concept cars. They cost thousands, sometimes a few million to make. But when ever they do bring them into production they require massive redesign and testing, as well as huge consideration to cost reduction and manufacturing. This is what cost billions to make happen.

These private garage jobs are significantly inferior to proper manufacturer designed electric cars. They are in no way at a mass production level.

Then how do these backyarders get these EV conversions road worthy and registered to drive on Australian roads if they are so inferior ?

http://www.evcapri.com/new/Kearons_EV_Capri_-_100_electric_car_conversion/Blog/B...

Also did this dude get the billions needed to build EV's ??

http://bev.com.au/

Also what about this mob and their converted Commodores ??

http://www.evengineering.com.au/

Like bobby said the time for excuses is well and truly over !!

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« Last Edit: Jul 28^th, 2012 at 11:58am by Sir lastnail »

In August 2021, Newcastle Coroner Karen Dilks recorded that Lisa Shaw had died “due to complications of an AstraZeneca COVID vaccination”.

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Sir lastnail

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #148 - Jul 28^th, 2012 at 11:26am

Bobby. wrote on Jul 28^th, 2012 at 7:59am:

Quote:

What this forum needs is not a "can do mentality", but a reality Mentality. Too many people have all the answers and no knowledge of the auto industry.
This is why they think that everyone explaining the truth of the situation is making excuses.

The time for excuses is over.
You forget that the body, suspension & just about everything else can be the same.
People just pull out the old engine, transmission etc & replace
it all with a brushless electric motor & battery.
It's not that hard mate.
That's why some people can do it in their home garages.

Holden and Ford are like an old computer company that expects to profit out of manufacturing the original IBM XT computer with a 5 MHz 8/16 bit CPU, 256K of memory, a 5 megabyte hard drive and 360K floppy disk drive running MSDOS 2.11 and Windows 1.01. And when nobody wants to buy their sh.t they make lame excuses and go running to the government for handouts to try and make up for the profits they can't possibly ever make !! And when they suck the government in for more money they tell the government they are working on a new version with an 8MHz processor and 10 Megabyte hard drive whilst everyone else has moved on and are using the latest 3.6GHz Quadcore computer running Windows 7 Cheesy

LOL

Would the people here defending Holden and Ford expect tax payers to bail them out if they were making old computers that nobody wanted anymore ??

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« Last Edit: Jul 28^th, 2012 at 12:07pm by Sir lastnail »

In August 2021, Newcastle Coroner Karen Dilks recorded that Lisa Shaw had died “due to complications of an AstraZeneca COVID vaccination”.

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 104805 Melbourne Gender:	Re: FORD.R.I.P. Reply #149 - Jul 28^th, 2012 at 2:13pm Nail, Quote: Would the people here defending Holden and Ford expect tax payers to bail them out if they were making old computers that nobody wanted anymore ?? It seems that way Nail. The people here seem to be on the side of this useless government. Maybe they are public servants?
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