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Sir lastnail Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 30088 Gender:	Re: FORD.R.I.P. Reply #240 - Jul 30^th, 2012 at 6:29pm longweekend58 wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 6:24pm: ive already got on. you dont. i dont want a second house. Touche !! I already own a car and don't need another one. You just canned your own stupid argument f.cskstick.
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Quantum

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #241 - Jul 30^th, 2012 at 6:30pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 4:59pm:

Quantum wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 4:05pm:

You don't need to get electric cars serviced? What was I saying about not knowing anything about cars...

So you save $5200 a year on petrol. Let's call it an even $5000 as who drives to work in traffic on holidays? So $5000 a year on a car that is about $40,000 more than an equiverlant sized petrol car.

8 years of driving! And that's when using a $100 a week as a number. For a more real number; I have a 3.5 V6, I travel 50km a day in traffic to work (25 either way), and my car uses 11 litres every 100km. That's 250km a week for work; about 29 litres of petrol; or about $45 at 1.50 a litre.

$45 a week For a large V6. A little corolla would probably be about $30 a week.

For other people in a similar situation to me, why would I spend $60,000 on a car to save money on petrol when I could get a similar standard petrol car for about 20,000? Why wouldn't I buy a much larger car with more room, more power, for 35,000, and still have $25,000 for petrol at (in my situation) about $2,500 a year. I would have to have a volt for ten years to start saving money on fuel. (not including the cost of any petrol or electricity for the volt, or the extra service cost as only Holden can do it.)

How do these car make economic sense to the average Australian? If you buy one to save money you would be a complete fool.

Apart from tyres, suspension and a little bit of the brakes what do you need to get serviced on an electric car ??

EV's have regenerative braking so they don't wear out as quickly as a normal useless fossil fool car that can't possibly recover any energy loss during braking !!

Only an idiot would tell everyone that a 50K EV won't come down in price as the economies of scale increase. Look who knows so little about cars !! You're just hoping they won't come down in price so that you keep ripping people off on oil changes. To bad sucker. EV's will come down in price for the same reason that flat screen TV's came down in price.

You still have most of the usual service parts. Drive lines, suspension, chassis joints all have to be oiled and greased. Brakes wears just as fast as a normal car (the energy recovery is a small part of slowing down the car, and the cars are heavier which cancels out any advantage. The energy recovery systems doesn't slow the car down anymore than using gears on a normal car). Windscreen wipers, light bulbs etc, A/C gas? The only real saving is the engine, with no spark plugs and no oil changes. So every 15,000kms you save about $60 on servicing. Now when those batteries die on the electric car and cost about $10,000-$40,000 to replace depending on the car, how cheap will that petrol engine look then. Even electric motors are not invincible, and brushes and coils can wear and burn out as well.

But most of that is mute. Your talking about the Volt remember. It has an engine!

No matter how you do the maths, it cost much more to own a Volt than a normal petrol car. Even if the price was to half, over ten years you will still loose out because the batteries need to be replaced and it will have next to no resale if you don't.

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adelcrow

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #242 - Jul 30^th, 2012 at 6:32pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 4:33pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 2:51pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 2:05pm:

I am gutted he doesn't want to buy my Tahoe.

It's not Ford mate, it's GM.

5 liter V8.

why not trade it in for a chinese made Hummer. 3 miles to the gallon !! Suit you perfectly Cheesy

LOL

90c per liter mate, we can afford it.

Nah, I'll stick with a 6 liter SUV.

Shove your EV up your ass.

Thats cheaper than Thailand's fuel prices..the US economy must really be in the sh!t if developing countries can afford to pay more for petrol Cheesy

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Bobby. Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 104696 Melbourne Gender:	Re: FORD.R.I.P. Reply #243 - Jul 30^th, 2012 at 6:47pm Quantum, Quote: and brushes and coils can wear and burn out as well. Electric cars use brushless motors. You are arguing with experts here.
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Bobby.

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #244 - Jul 30^th, 2012 at 6:49pm

Nail,
Quote:

In fact look at all the things you don't need to get serviced or replaced on an EV.

- No ripoff petrol
- No getting ripped off on service and maintenance
- No oil changes
- No oil filter to dispose of
- No filthy carcinogenic sump oil to dispose of
- No transmission to pack up and maintain
- No spark plugs to change
- No timing belt to change
- No fuel filter to change
- No radiator and hoses to change
- No expensive coolant flushes
- No fuel injectors to pack up
- No problems with contaminated fuel
- No exhaust pipe to change
- No toxic tail pipe emissions
- No green house gas emissions
- No catalytic converter
- Create your own energy at home using your own rooftop PV array
- Silent operation
- No wars faught over oil
- No environmentally damaging oil spills
- regenerative braking recovers lost energy when braking
- reduction in brake maintenance due to regenerative braking

Thankyou Nail for your illuminating knowledge.

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Sir lastnail

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #245 - Jul 30^th, 2012 at 7:04pm

Quantum wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 6:30pm:

You still have most of the usual service parts. Drive lines, suspension, chassis joints all have to be oiled and greased. Brakes wears just as fast as a normal car (the energy recovery is a small part of slowing down the car, and the cars are heavier which cancels out any advantage. The energy recovery systems doesn't slow the car down anymore than using gears on a normal car). Windscreen wipers, light bulbs etc, A/C gas? The only real saving is the engine, with no spark plugs and no oil changes. So every 15,000kms you save about $60 on servicing. Now when those batteries die on the electric car and cost about $10,000-$40,000 to replace depending on the car, how cheap will that petrol engine look then. Even electric motors are not invincible, and brushes and coils can wear and burn out as well.

But most of that is mute. Your talking about the Volt remember. It has an engine!

No matter how you do the maths, it cost much more to own a Volt than a normal petrol car. Even if the price was to half, over ten years you will still loose out because the batteries need to be replaced and it will have next to no resale if you don't.

i'm talking about an all electric vehicle such as the nissan leaf which currently sells for 50K so you're just talking sh.t again.

here is a list of things that are not regular service items on an EV.

- No ripoff petrol
- No getting ripped off on service and maintenance
- No oil changes
- No oil filter to dispose of
- No filthy carcinogenic sump oil to dispose of
- No transmission to pack up and maintain
- No spark plugs to change
- No timing belt to change
- No fuel filter to change
- No radiator and hoses to change
- No expensive coolant flushes
- No fuel injectors to pack up
- No problems with contaminated fuel
- No exhaust pipe to change
- No toxic tail pipe emissions
- No green house gas emissions
- No catalytic converter
- Create your own energy at home using your own rooftop PV array
- Silent operation
- No wars faught over oil
- No environmentally damaging oil spills
- regenerative braking recovers lost energy when braking
- reduction in brake maintenance due to regenerative braking

and as for regen braking most properly designed EV's allow different levels of regen braking and it certainly does have a profond effect on the life the brakes. Of course how would you know when you don't even own an EV.

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Sir lastnail

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #246 - Jul 30^th, 2012 at 7:13pm

Bobby. wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 6:49pm:

Nail,
Quote:

In fact look at all the things you don't need to get serviced or replaced on an EV.

- No ripoff petrol
- No getting ripped off on service and maintenance
- No oil changes
- No oil filter to dispose of
- No filthy carcinogenic sump oil to dispose of
- No transmission to pack up and maintain
- No spark plugs to change
- No timing belt to change
- No fuel filter to change
- No radiator and hoses to change
- No expensive coolant flushes
- No fuel injectors to pack up
- No problems with contaminated fuel
- No exhaust pipe to change
- No toxic tail pipe emissions
- No green house gas emissions
- No catalytic converter
- Create your own energy at home using your own rooftop PV array
- Silent operation
- No wars faught over oil
- No environmentally damaging oil spills
- regenerative braking recovers lost energy when braking
- reduction in brake maintenance due to regenerative braking

Thankyou Nail for your illuminating knowledge.

The Nissan leaf uses a 3 phase brushless synchronous AC electric motor with a power output of 80 KW and 280 N-m of torque. Max RPM is 10,390 Wink

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Quantum

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #247 - Jul 30^th, 2012 at 7:30pm

Bobby. wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 6:47pm:

Quantum,
Quote:

and brushes and coils can wear and burn out as well.

Electric cars use brushless motors.
You are arguing with experts here.

If I was arguing with experts you wouldn't have made that comment.

Many hybrids and EV use BL motors. That is because they have many advantages over brushed motors. However they also have many cons, such as limits on higher power and Durability. They are fine on hybrids because they are low powered and work intermittently. As EV's get more powerful and are expected to work in harder conditions some of the advantages are removed.

There is a movement in the auto world of moving back to brushed motors as there are many advantages and cost benefits. They may not have the overall efficiency and smoothness of BL motors at low powers, but have advantages in other areas due to their simplicity.

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Bobby.

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #248 - Jul 30^th, 2012 at 7:35pm

Quantum wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 7:30pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 6:47pm:

Quantum,
Quote:

and brushes and coils can wear and burn out as well.

Electric cars use brushless motors.
You are arguing with experts here.

If I was arguing with experts you wouldn't have made that comment.

Many hybrids and EV use BL motors. That is because they have many advantages over brushed motors. However they also have many cons, such as limits on higher power and Durability. They are fine on hybrids because they are low powered and work intermittently. As EV's get more powerful and are expected to work in harder conditions some of the advantages are removed.

There is a movement in the auto world of moving back to brushed motors as there are many advantages and cost benefits. They may not have the overall efficiency and smoothness of BL motors at low powers, but have advantages in other areas due to their simplicity.

Any link for this claim?

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Quantum

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #249 - Jul 30^th, 2012 at 7:40pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 7:04pm:

Quantum wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 6:30pm:

You still have most of the usual service parts. Drive lines, suspension, chassis joints all have to be oiled and greased. Brakes wears just as fast as a normal car (the energy recovery is a small part of slowing down the car, and the cars are heavier which cancels out any advantage. The energy recovery systems doesn't slow the car down anymore than using gears on a normal car). Windscreen wipers, light bulbs etc, A/C gas? The only real saving is the engine, with no spark plugs and no oil changes. So every 15,000kms you save about $60 on servicing. Now when those batteries die on the electric car and cost about $10,000-$40,000 to replace depending on the car, how cheap will that petrol engine look then. Even electric motors are not invincible, and brushes and coils can wear and burn out as well.

But most of that is mute. Your talking about the Volt remember. It has an engine!

No matter how you do the maths, it cost much more to own a Volt than a normal petrol car. Even if the price was to half, over ten years you will still loose out because the batteries need to be replaced and it will have next to no resale if you don't.

i'm talking about an all electric vehicle such as the nissan leaf which currently sells for 50K so you're just talking sh.t again.

here is a list of things that are not regular service items on an EV.

- No ripoff petrol
- No getting ripped off on service and maintenance
- No oil changes
- No oil filter to dispose of
- No filthy carcinogenic sump oil to dispose of
- No transmission to pack up and maintain
- No spark plugs to change
- No timing belt to change
- No fuel filter to change
- No radiator and hoses to change
- No expensive coolant flushes
- No fuel injectors to pack up
- No problems with contaminated fuel
- No exhaust pipe to change
- No toxic tail pipe emissions
- No green house gas emissions
- No catalytic converter
- Create your own energy at home using your own rooftop PV array
- Silent operation
- No wars faught over oil
- No environmentally damaging oil spills
- regenerative braking recovers lost energy when braking
- reduction in brake maintenance due to regenerative braking

and as for regen braking most properly designed EV's allow different levels of regen braking and it certainly does have a profond effect on the life the brakes. Of course how would you know when you don't even own an EV.

Either do you! That's the joke of this thread. The person who calls others fools for driving petrol cars, yet drives one himself. The person who says no one wants petrol cars and wants to buy electric, yet won't buy one himself.

As alway you keep changing the subject when it suits you. One minute your talking about full electic cars, but when it gets pointed out that they don't have the range you start talking about the Volt or hybrids. When it gets pointed out they have an engine and need to be serviced like a normal car, you switch back to talking about EV's. It's transparent that you are just avoiding reality.

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Sir lastnail

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #250 - Jul 30^th, 2012 at 8:09pm

Quantum wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 7:40pm:

[Either do you! That's the joke of this thread. The person who calls others fools for driving petrol cars, yet drives one himself. The person who says no one wants petrol cars and wants to buy electric, yet won't buy one himself.

As alway you keep changing the subject when it suits you. One minute your talking about full electic cars, but when it gets pointed out that they don't have the range you start talking about the Volt or hybrids. When it gets pointed out they have an engine and need to be serviced like a normal car, you switch back to talking about EV's. It's transparent that you are just avoiding reality.

yes I drive a fossil fool car. When did people ever have any other choice other than to buy something that was completely unreliable and expensive to run and maintain as all fossil fool vehicles are ?? Just because I own one doesn't mean I don't understand its limitations !!

Having repaired my own cars over the years I will be glad when EV's make their mark and the scammers who have profitted for so long out of selling and fitting parts that purposely wear out are finally dead and buried !!

Anyone in the know, knows that auto manufacturers make a huge chunk of their revenue out of parts and service and that is why they have been so reluctant to build something reliable like an EV that barely requires any service or maintenance !!

And the GM Volt is essentially an electric car with a range extender. It's purpose is to shut people up like you who bitch and moan about the limited range of battery electric cars. As well Ford US is currently working on all three types including battery electric cars, plugin hybrid cars and hybrid cars. What is Ford Australia working on ?? Have you heard ?? They are working on a 4 cylinder Ford Falcon Cheesy

LOL

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Bobby.

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #251 - Jul 30^th, 2012 at 8:30pm

Quantum wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 7:30pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 6:47pm:

Quantum,
Quote:

and brushes and coils can wear and burn out as well.

Electric cars use brushless motors.
You are arguing with experts here.

If I was arguing with experts you wouldn't have made that comment.

Many hybrids and EV use BL motors. That is because they have many advantages over brushed motors. However they also have many cons, such as limits on higher power and Durability. They are fine on hybrids because they are low powered and work intermittently. As EV's get more powerful and are expected to work in harder conditions some of the advantages are removed.

There is a movement in the auto world of moving back to brushed motors as there are many advantages and cost benefits. They may not have the overall efficiency and smoothness of BL motors at low powers, but have advantages in other areas due to their simplicity.

Quantum or Longweekend or whoever you are,
Have a look here:
http://cafeelectric.com/curtis/regen/index.html

It doesn't look like brushed motors are very reliable for regenerative braking.
I don't think you know what you're talking about.

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Quantum

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #252 - Jul 30^th, 2012 at 8:31pm

Bobby. wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 7:35pm:

Quantum wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 7:30pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 6:47pm:

Quantum,
Quote:

and brushes and coils can wear and burn out as well.

Electric cars use brushless motors.
You are arguing with experts here.

If I was arguing with experts you wouldn't have made that comment.

Many hybrids and EV use BL motors. That is because they have many advantages over brushed motors. However they also have many cons, such as limits on higher power and Durability. They are fine on hybrids because they are low powered and work intermittently. As EV's get more powerful and are expected to work in harder conditions some of the advantages are removed.

There is a movement in the auto world of moving back to brushed motors as there are many advantages and cost benefits. They may not have the overall efficiency and smoothness of BL motors at low powers, but have advantages in other areas due to their simplicity.

Any link for this claim?

Why? Your the expert. Surely you now all this already?

One reason is that brushed motors are improving in efficiency and life span. The brushless had the advantages of low wear and almost perfect efficiency (90%+ gives little room for improvement), but as brushed motors improve the gap between the two is shrinking.

The other reasons are their low cost, ease of construction, extream conditions durability, as well as being able to have high power outputs with little complexity, makes them desirable in cheaper, more powerful, mass produced electric cars.

I honestly don't see companies like Toyota moving in this direction (except for in possible offroad apllications) but I could invison many Chinese companies seeing the cheapness and easiness of them tempting. If the owner needs regular brush changes that's their problem.

Brushless motors were a no brainer in low volume expensive hybrids. The next decade is looking like electric cars will be simplified for mass volume, low price tag construction. Brushed motors have their advantage in this area, hence the talk about them.

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Quantum

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #253 - Jul 30^th, 2012 at 8:45pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 8:09pm:

Quantum wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 7:40pm:

[Either do you! That's the joke of this thread. The person who calls others fools for driving petrol cars, yet drives one himself. The person who says no one wants petrol cars and wants to buy electric, yet won't buy one himself.

As alway you keep changing the subject when it suits you. One minute your talking about full electic cars, but when it gets pointed out that they don't have the range you start talking about the Volt or hybrids. When it gets pointed out they have an engine and need to be serviced like a normal car, you switch back to talking about EV's. It's transparent that you are just avoiding reality.

yes I drive a fossil fool car. When did people ever have any other choice other than to buy something that was completely unreliable and expensive to run and maintain as all fossil fool vehicles are ?? Just because I own one doesn't mean I don't understand its limitations !!

Having repaired my own cars over the years I will be glad when EV's make their mark and the scammers who have profitted for so long out of selling and fitting parts that purposely wear out are finally dead and buried !!

Anyone in the know, knows that auto manufacturers make a huge chunk of their revenue out of parts and service and that is why they have been so reluctant to build something reliable like an EV that barely requires any service or maintenance !!

And the GM Volt is essentially an electric car with a range extender. It's purpose is to shut people up like you who bitch and moan about the limited range of battery electric cars. As well Ford US is currently working on all three types including battery electric cars, plugin hybrid cars and hybrid cars. What is Ford Australia working on ?? Have you heard ?? They are working on a 4 cylinder Ford Falcon Cheesy

LOL

Everything that wears out on a normal car will wear out on an EV (such as tyres, paint, door rubbers, etc) except for the engine. Today's petrol engines regularly outlast the rest of the car, so don't expect unlimited km in your new EV.

I find it interesting that you think that today's companies make petrol cars to break, but will make EV's to last forever. Are these companies evil money squeezers or good guys?

Also, why didn't you buy a Honda insight or Prius? They came out over a decade ago, so why did you buy a fools petrol car? Or are you still driving a car made in the 90's, in which case you care nothing for the environment (even an old 4 cylinder is more pollutive than a new V8), or you would never have the money for an EV anyway.

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Bobby. Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 104696 Melbourne Gender:	Re: FORD.R.I.P. Reply #254 - Jul 30^th, 2012 at 8:55pm Hi Quantum, Thanks for ignoring my post. Quote: Quantum or Longweekend or whoever you are, Have a look here: http://cafeelectric.com/curtis/regen/index.html It doesn't look like brushed motors are very reliable for regenerative braking. I don't think you know what you're talking about.
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