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gold_medal

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #390 - Aug 4^th, 2012 at 1:38pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 4^th, 2012 at 1:26pm:

gold_medal wrote on Aug 4^th, 2012 at 12:58pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 4^th, 2012 at 12:21pm:

gold_medal wrote on Aug 4^th, 2012 at 9:11am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2012 at 11:37pm:

gold_medal wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2012 at 7:53pm:

ah... the old failed argument which somehow has people believing that the only maintenance ever done on a car is the engine. forgetting, the brakes, chassis, steering, accessories, body etc. and while electric motors are simpler, the idea that they willbe maintenance free is simplistic as is the notion that transmissions (yes EVs still have them in simpler form) are maintenance free is childish.

perhaps the only EV you have ever seen (or driven) is a remote-control toy car. it certainly sounds like it.

so at every service interval of 6 months what service do you think they will do ?? fill up the wiper bottle !!

And I suppose you think they will still charge you 300 bucks to do this !!

You seem to have next to no idea about modern motor vehicles. You seem to think that all repairs and maintenance are on the engine. That pretty much makes readers wonder if youve even ever owned a car. You do seem to be remarkably unfamiliar with the costs of owning one or how to maintain one.

So I ask you again what will need to be done on an EV every six months that justifies charging the consumer at least 300 bucks for every visit ??

Instead of hurling abuse just answer the obvious will you !!

Why dont you actually pick a topic and stay on it for more than a sentence. Who knows, people might even take you seriously. but if the entirety of your argument is going to centre on a hypothetical service charge for a hypothetical car then I might as well discuss my DeLorean and the maintenance charges of my Flux Capacitor. at least my car is entertaining.

It is part of the topic in response to your reply !!

Why don't you just answer a seemingly obvious question ??

And what is your car ?? It wouldn't be a Ford F.cken Pathetic Vehicle would it ??

You have a purely tangential mode of debating. Thats why it isnt worth it with you. Make 99 points out of 100 in a reply and you hone in on the missing one and then expand it to 100 more. You're not even entertaining. You are just silly - a loony-leftie with a love of everthing you want at everyone else expense.

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Sir lastnail

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #391 - Aug 4^th, 2012 at 1:42pm

gold_medal wrote on Aug 4^th, 2012 at 1:38pm:

You have a purely tangential mode of debating. Thats why it isnt worth it with you. Make 99 points out of 100 in a reply and you hone in on the missing one and then expand it to 100 more. You're not even entertaining. You are just silly - a loony-leftie with a love of everthing you want at everyone else expense.

why can't you just tell us what they are going to service on an EV every six months and how much do you think they will charge for that service ??

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In August 2021, Newcastle Coroner Karen Dilks recorded that Lisa Shaw had died “due to complications of an AstraZeneca COVID vaccination”.

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FriYAY

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #392 - Aug 4^th, 2012 at 1:44pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 4^th, 2012 at 1:42pm:

gold_medal wrote on Aug 4^th, 2012 at 1:38pm:

You have a purely tangential mode of debating. Thats why it isnt worth it with you. Make 99 points out of 100 in a reply and you hone in on the missing one and then expand it to 100 more. You're not even entertaining. You are just silly - a loony-leftie with a love of everthing you want at everyone else expense.

why can't you just tell us what they are going to service on an EV every six months and how much do you think they will charge for that service ??

Anything that needs a service.

Too much.

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Andrei.Hicks Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 23818 Carlsbad, CA Gender:	Re: FORD.R.I.P. Reply #393 - Aug 4^th, 2012 at 1:47pm The EV does not defeat the petrol car for multi-purpose use for the mass market. There is no argument to dispute this.
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Prevailing Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 7169 Stop Men	Re: FORD.R.I.P. Reply #394 - Aug 4^th, 2012 at 1:47pm We may sue the Commonwealth if it neglects to protect the Australian manufacturing industry and Australian jobs with tariffs for external and ideological reasons....
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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 105433 Melbourne Gender:	Re: FORD.R.I.P. Reply #395 - Aug 4^th, 2012 at 2:04pm Prevailing wrote on Aug 4^th, 2012 at 1:47pm: We may sue the Commonwealth if it neglects to protect the Australian manufacturing industry and Australian jobs with tariffs for external and ideological reasons.... Sue? with what money?
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Sir lastnail Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 30090 Gender:	Re: FORD.R.I.P. Reply #396 - Aug 4^th, 2012 at 2:09pm Andrei.Hicks wrote on Aug 4^th, 2012 at 1:47pm: The EV does not defeat the petrol car for multi-purpose use for the mass market. There is no argument to dispute this. yes but it now gives people a choice of energy usage which they never had before Expensive petrol/oil or cheap rooftop PV supplimented grid power
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Sir lastnail

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #397 - Aug 4^th, 2012 at 2:10pm

Prevailing wrote on Aug 4^th, 2012 at 1:47pm:

We may sue the Commonwealth if it neglects to protect the Australian manufacturing industry and Australian jobs with tariffs for external and ideological reasons.... Cheesy

you should be suing Holden and Ford for misappropriating tax payers money by making obsolete technology that had no way of lasting in the market place !!

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In August 2021, Newcastle Coroner Karen Dilks recorded that Lisa Shaw had died “due to complications of an AstraZeneca COVID vaccination”.

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Bobby.

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #398 - Aug 4^th, 2012 at 2:18pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 4^th, 2012 at 2:10pm:

Prevailing wrote on Aug 4^th, 2012 at 1:47pm:

We may sue the Commonwealth if it neglects to protect the Australian manufacturing industry and Australian jobs with tariffs for external and ideological reasons.... Cheesy

you should be suing Holden and Ford for misappropriating tax payers money by making obsolete technology that had no way of lasting in the market place !!

Yes Nail,
especially when they keeping all their EV plans to themselves in the USA.

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Andrei.Hicks

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #399 - Aug 4^th, 2012 at 2:18pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 4^th, 2012 at 2:09pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Aug 4^th, 2012 at 1:47pm:

The EV does not defeat the petrol car for multi-purpose use for the mass market.

There is no argument to dispute this.

yes but it now gives people a choice of energy usage which they never had before Wink

Expensive petrol/oil or cheap rooftop PV supplimented grid power Wink

The R&D spent by our company on

a) Off-shore oil drilling capability
b) Shale and tar sand extraction of oil
c) Undersea mapping of oil pools

will ensure that oil and petroleum will remain the main source of fuel for cars for a long time yet.

EVs are too expensive and too restricted.

I would remind you that our company (along with our competitors) also own the IP to EV elements too by the way.
We are part of the EV development too.

It's just not ready yet.

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Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination - Oscar Wilde

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perceptions_now

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #400 - Aug 4^th, 2012 at 2:22pm

gold_medal wrote on Aug 4^th, 2012 at 12:56pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 4^th, 2012 at 10:41am:

perceptions_now wrote on Aug 4^th, 2012 at 9:23am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 4^th, 2012 at 9:11am:

gold_medal wrote on Aug 4^th, 2012 at 9:08am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2012 at 8:51pm:

Good question but there is no doubt that the major oil fields are well in decline.

Just as there is no doubt that the NEW oil fields are significantly BIGGER than the current ones. It is such a pity that the doom-and-gloom paranoia of the left and the dumb (same thing) rarely matches reality. Perhaps that is why every left-governed country is such a mess or headed there.

Rubbish,
there has never been a bigger oil field found than in Saudi Arabia.

That is correct, the Saudi fields are the largest ever found & GM may be interested in the following chart on past & likely future discoveries, which has been produced by Mobil.

I, for one, would not suggest betting against the trend & GM, I am not a "Lefty"!
http://static.cdn-seekingalpha.com/uploads/2012/7/4/410007-13413808715704331-Rob...

Thanks Perceptions,
I need help sometimes with people posting lies.

You may not be yet aware as it is obvious you have trouble with graphs but that one is 10 years old and misses all recent oil field discoveries and newly viable ones. You really should keep to the forefront of whats happening rather than reading newspapers from 2002 and thinking you know what you are talking about. You do know John Howard isnt PM anymore, right? well the canadian and USA oil fields are just becoming viable now and that effectively quintuples current supplies.

Just a note. it's 2012.

Really?

Which huge new "Conventional Oil" discoveries can you name & just how huge are they?

Will they increase the Global Oil Supply for a day, a week, a month, a year? Just how large are they?

We look forward to a FEW facts?

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Bobby.

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #401 - Aug 4^th, 2012 at 2:25pm

Quote:

Really?

Which huge new "Conventional Oil" discoveries can you name & just how huge are they?

Will they increase the Global Oil Supply for a day, a week, a month, a year? Just how large are they?

We look forward to a FEW facts?

Hi Perceptions,
good points.
The biggest finds are oil shale which have a terrible environmental impact.
Gone are the days of a giant oil field like Saudi Arabia with
gushing sweet crude oil coming out
in billions of barrels.

They have to pump water into the ground & separate it out from the oil
in Saudi Arabia now.

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perceptions_now

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #402 - Aug 4^th, 2012 at 2:26pm

gold_medal wrote on Aug 4^th, 2012 at 1:02pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Aug 4^th, 2012 at 12:34pm:

gold_medal wrote on Aug 4^th, 2012 at 9:16am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 4^th, 2012 at 9:11am:

gold_medal wrote on Aug 4^th, 2012 at 9:08am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2012 at 8:51pm:

Good question but there is no doubt that the major oil fields are well in decline.

Just as there is no doubt that the NEW oil fields are significantly BIGGER than the current ones. It is such a pity that the doom-and-gloom paranoia of the left and the dumb (same thing) rarely matches reality. Perhaps that is why every left-governed country is such a mess or headed there.

Rubbish,
there has never been a bigger oil field found than in Saudi Arabia.

The shale oil fields of the USA are 7 times larger than Saudi Arabia and recent improvements in drilling technology (going sideways) has made many other fields now economic and viable.

Then we go to Canada whose tar sands are now becoming economic to recover and also contain 7 times the amount as in Saudi Arabia. Southern American oil fields are now also becoming economic driven both by higher oil prices and cheaper extraction technologies.

So you might as well get over the fact that oil is still in plentiful supply. All we have done so far is access the EASY sources and as drilling technology continues to evole more and more deeper and otherwise inaccessible fields will come online.

I know this is uncomfortable for you to accept but the peak oil nonsense is just that - nonsense. That is why we were supposed to run out of oil in 1985 and then again in 2000 and why now we are supposed to be experiencing chronic shortages while there is in fact a mild GLUT in world oil supplies.

Must suck to be an uninformed gullible leftie, mustn't it?

GM,
As put to Prevailing already, you may like to comment on the following -
"Given that Economics is all about Supply & Demand, perhaps you can explain to us, the reasons for the massive increases in Oil & Coal, in particular?

If not shortages, then what are the reasons that have influenced the Crude Oil Price?

For example, the Price of a barrel of WTi went from around US$10 in the late 1990's, to US$147 a barrel in 2008, before crashing to around US$40 in 2009, before starting to climb again, where it is now reaching back towards US$100.

So, what reasoning could there be for the size of these increases & the great variations?"

Btw, there are "Conventional" & "Unconventional" sources of Oil, Tar Sands & Shale Oil fall into the "Unconventional" sector.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconventional_oil

The following chart mentions some of the Energy sources now in use, including the Tar Sands & Shale Oil you have mentioned.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/EROI_-_Ratio_of_Energy_...

The EROEI on the following alternative fuel sources are clearly NOT going to replace Oil & Coal, with Oil in particular having an EROEI of 100-150 earlier on in its life.

EROEI (for US)    Fuel
1.3    Biodiesel
1.3    Ethanol corn
1.6    Solar collector
1.9    Solar flat plate
3.0    Bitumen tar sands
5.0    Ethanol sugarcane
5.0    Shale oil
6.8    Photovoltaic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_returned_on_energy_invested

In any event, these "Unconventional" sources of Oil, including Tar Sands & Shale Oil, can not be produced in the volume required, to run the modern world.

In fact, part of the reason for the large Oil Price increases, since the late 1990's, can be traced back to the scaling up of Production for these "Unconventional" sources of Oil and that will continue to weigh on the Global Economy!

You are correct, in at least one respect, what we have done so far is access all of the most easily accessible fruit (Energy Sources), from the lowest branches & from here on in, fruit picking (Energy Production) becomes more more difficult AND much more expensive!

Peak Oil is a concept mostly promulgated by people without the slightest clue what it means. Peak Oil isnt about the ease or price of extraction but about the commercial viability of extraction in a global market place. As such, technology and discovery moves they THEROETICAL peak oil point further on in time. It is not an absolute, nor is it fixed in place. it is an ecnomic construct designed to help measure supply and demand curves into the future. You seem to be accepting all the negatives of demand qithout question while rejecting all the positives of supply improvements and other technologies including ones not yet delivered or imagined.

Your peak oil philosphy seems based entirely on fear and paranoia. it isnt even close to reality based either historically or economically. You like doom-and-gloom. That's your choice. But it mainly comes across as depression and paranoia.

GM,
Forgive me for noticing, but you didn't address the questions raised!

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Sir lastnail

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #403 - Aug 4^th, 2012 at 2:27pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Aug 4^th, 2012 at 2:18pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 4^th, 2012 at 2:09pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Aug 4^th, 2012 at 1:47pm:

The EV does not defeat the petrol car for multi-purpose use for the mass market.

There is no argument to dispute this.

yes but it now gives people a choice of energy usage which they never had before Wink

Expensive petrol/oil or cheap rooftop PV supplimented grid power Wink

The R&D spent by our company on

a) Off-shore oil drilling capability
b) Shale and tar sand extraction of oil
c) Undersea mapping of oil pools

will ensure that oil and petroleum will remain the main source of fuel for cars for a long time yet.

EVs are too expensive and too restricted.

I would remind you that our company (along with our competitors) also own the IP to EV elements too by the way.
We are part of the EV development too.

It's just not ready yet.

You still haven't answered my question of what is the economics of driving a 5 liter V8 SUV through peak hour stop start traffic when most of the fuel is blown out of the tail pipe with no benefit to the driver ??

You keep wanking on about the cost of an EV but conveniently ignore the increasing cost of fossil fools of which most is wasted as unrecoverable energy !!

The Nissan Leaf sells for 50K in Australia and 30K in the states even though the AUD is above parity !! Go figure !!

How long do you think before it is 30K and people start buying it over petrol cars ??

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In August 2021, Newcastle Coroner Karen Dilks recorded that Lisa Shaw had died “due to complications of an AstraZeneca COVID vaccination”.

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perceptions_now

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #404 - Aug 4^th, 2012 at 2:31pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 4^th, 2012 at 2:25pm:

Quote:

Really?

Which huge new "Conventional Oil" discoveries can you name & just how huge are they?

Will they increase the Global Oil Supply for a day, a week, a month, a year? Just how large are they?

We look forward to a FEW facts?

Hi Perceptions,
good points.
The biggest finds are oil shale which have a terrible environmental impact.
Gone are the days of a giant oil field like Saudi Arabia with
gushing sweet crude oil coming out
in billions of barrels.

They have to pump water into the ground & separate it out from the oil
in Saudi Arabia now.

Whilst it is correct that the Tar Sands & Shale Oil certainly have a considerable Environmental impact, their low EROEI nearly makes them an Energy Sink, which means that nearly as much Energy is expended in creating the Energy, as is actually Produced by it!

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