Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
Why are the Libs letting the Nats dictate to them? (Read 1423 times)
TheGreenLight
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 633
Gender: male
Why are the Libs letting the Nats dictate to them?
Aug 4th, 2012 at 1:59pm
 
So much for Labor selling themselves out to the Greens - why are the Libs allowing the Nats to do the same to them? The Nats have always been a party much further to the right than the Libs. The Nats are almost as far-right as a party can be. The Libs, in contrast, used to be a good solid centre-right party, but now they've moved to being just plain right, and the Ntpat's bitch.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
BigOl64
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 14438
Townsville QLD
Gender: male
Re: Why are the Libs letting the Nats dictate to them?
Reply #1 - Aug 4th, 2012 at 2:40pm
 
TheGreenLight wrote on Aug 4th, 2012 at 1:59pm:
So much for Labor selling themselves out to the Greens - why are the Libs allowing the Nats to do the same to them? The Nats have always been a party much further to the right than the Libs. The Nats are almost as far-right as a party can be. The Libs, in contrast, used to be a good solid centre-right party, but now they've moved to being just plain right, and the Ntpat's bitch.



Please continue to avoid supplying any evidence or even bothering with context as this make for a much more fulfilling post and allows everyone to appreciate your inane rant.

BTW the nationals are agrarian socialist, always have been, always will be.


Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Upton Sinclair
Senior Member
****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 496
Re: Why are the Libs letting the Nats dictate to them?
Reply #2 - Aug 4th, 2012 at 2:43pm
 
I was pondering starting a very similar thread jut a few hours ago but got distracted with some other stuff! Grin

I would also point out that people who complain about the Greens influence when they only got 11% of the primary vote in 2010 should really have a look at the NP's 3% and ask themselves why a party with only a fractional representation in the electorate can wield such disproportionate over cabinet and policy?

http://www.abc.net.au/elections/federal/2010/guide/parties.htm
Back to top
 

"I am not asking the Australian people to take me on trust, but on the record of a lifetime,"
--Tony Abbott
 
IP Logged
 
Guildford
Gold Member
*****
Offline


It's Only Me

Posts: 500
SE Victoria
Gender: male
Re: Why are the Libs letting the Nats dictate to them?
Reply #3 - Aug 4th, 2012 at 2:47pm
 
TheGreenLight wrote on Aug 4th, 2012 at 1:59pm:
So much for Labor selling themselves out to the Greens - why are the Libs allowing the Nats to do the same to them? The Nats have always been a party much further to the right than the Libs. The Nats are almost as far-right as a party can be. The Libs, in contrast, used to be a good solid centre-right party, but now they've moved to being just plain right, and the Ntpat's bitch.



as far right as a party can be


Just because your parents were Country Party voting fascists doesn't mean that the NP are fascist.

I've known personally many members of parliament from the three main parties and I can tell you the most stuck up, snobish, wealth flaunting, social climbing and anti working class member was a Labor minister in the Cain/Kirner ALP governments.

(And if you are reading this you've heard it from me before so close your mouth and stop feigning shock)


Back to top
 

Drop Dead Gorgeous
 
IP Logged
 
Upton Sinclair
Senior Member
****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 496
Re: Why are the Libs letting the Nats dictate to them?
Reply #4 - Aug 4th, 2012 at 2:50pm
 
BigOl64 wrote on Aug 4th, 2012 at 2:40pm:
Please continue to avoid supplying any evidence or even bothering with context as this make for a much more fulfilling post and allows everyone to appreciate your inane rant.

BTW the nationals are agrarian socialist, always have been, always will be.




Context:

Quote:
The mild-mannered Warren Truss heads the Nationals but their Senate leader and wannabe future leader, Barnaby Joyce, is their spear carrier. It was Joyce who led the charge on foreign investment, being openly critical of Chinese investment by state-owned enterprises; the Nationals generally ramped up the concern about overseas designs on agricultural land.
Advertisement
Free-market Liberals such as shadow treasurer Joe Hockey battled to rein in the Nats' influence. Abbott's confusing comments in Beijing last week, which were interpreted as being more anti-foreign investment than they were, perhaps reflected the squeeze he has been in. The discussion paper Abbott released yesterday gave ground to the Nationals by lowering the threshold for Foreign Investment Review Board examination of bids for agricultural land and agribusinesses (all those made by foreign state-owned enterprises are already scrutinised). But it retained the policy on foreign investment in other areas. Some in the Nats (whose members include both economic ''dries'' and ''wets'') would have liked to go further. But they they won't be pushing it. The Nats believe Abbott is the best Liberal leader they could have. Malcolm Turnbull wasn't on their wavelength, and if Hockey had won the top job, he wouldn't have been either.
In government, things would get really interesting between the Liberals and the Nationals if Joyce, expected to move to the House of Representatives at the election, became deputy prime minister. This would not happen in the short term. But assuming Truss later retired, Joyce would probably get the numbers.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/real-battles-lie-within-abbotts-own-camp-20120803-23kw1.html#ixzz22Y8T48x6


Considering that they will likely soon run the country, it's instructive to ask the question: why does a party that represents 3% of the country have such a disproportionate say over how we should conduct our relations with China? Why are these extremist agrarian socialists given so much power?
Back to top
 

"I am not asking the Australian people to take me on trust, but on the record of a lifetime,"
--Tony Abbott
 
IP Logged
 
Guildford
Gold Member
*****
Offline


It's Only Me

Posts: 500
SE Victoria
Gender: male
Re: Why are the Libs letting the Nats dictate to them?
Reply #5 - Aug 4th, 2012 at 2:52pm
 
Upton Sinclair wrote on Aug 4th, 2012 at 2:43pm:
I was pondering starting a very similar thread jut a few hours ago but got distracted with some other stuff! Grin

I would also point out that people who complain about the Greens influence when they only got 11% of the primary vote in 2010 should really have a look at the NP's 3% and ask themselves why a party with only a fractional representation in the electorate can wield such disproportionate over cabinet and policy?

http://www.abc.net.au/elections/federal/2010/guide/parties.htm


Question: If the NP didn't exist, would those seats be Labor or Liberal held (in general) ?
Back to top
 

Drop Dead Gorgeous
 
IP Logged
 
BigOl64
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 14438
Townsville QLD
Gender: male
Re: Why are the Libs letting the Nats dictate to them?
Reply #6 - Aug 4th, 2012 at 3:02pm
 
Upton Sinclair wrote on Aug 4th, 2012 at 2:50pm:
Considering that they will likely soon run the country, it's instructive to ask the question: why does a party that represents 3% of the country have such a disproportionate say over how we should conduct our relations with China? Why are these extremist agrarian socialists given so much power?




Why are you asking me? I am neither a liberal or a national.

BTW I wouldn't expect an opinion piece from a Melbourne newspaper to say any different than it did, wouldn't you?

Just like I wouldn't be surprised that an opinion piece for Country Life pointing out that the labor party id too heavily influenced by a bunch of inner city wankers posing as a political party as a bad thing.

It's just some journo's opinion, it just happens to be one you agree with.


The libs have always been more than happy to throw the nats under a bus for political gain and the nats have always been too stupid to realise that. So I wouldn't get my panties all bunched up just yet.  Grin




Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
FriYAY
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 7395
Re: Why are the Libs letting the Nats dictate to them?
Reply #7 - Aug 4th, 2012 at 3:13pm
 
Upton Sinclair wrote on Aug 4th, 2012 at 2:50pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Aug 4th, 2012 at 2:40pm:
Please continue to avoid supplying any evidence or even bothering with context as this make for a much more fulfilling post and allows everyone to appreciate your inane rant.

BTW the nationals are agrarian socialist, always have been, always will be.




Context:

Quote:
The mild-mannered Warren Truss heads the Nationals but their Senate leader and wannabe future leader, Barnaby Joyce, is their spear carrier. It was Joyce who led the charge on foreign investment, being openly critical of Chinese investment by state-owned enterprises; the Nationals generally ramped up the concern about overseas designs on agricultural land.
Advertisement
Free-market Liberals such as shadow treasurer Joe Hockey battled to rein in the Nats' influence. Abbott's confusing comments in Beijing last week, which were interpreted as being more anti-foreign investment than they were, perhaps reflected the squeeze he has been in. The discussion paper Abbott released yesterday gave ground to the Nationals by lowering the threshold for Foreign Investment Review Board examination of bids for agricultural land and agribusinesses (all those made by foreign state-owned enterprises are already scrutinised). But it retained the policy on foreign investment in other areas. Some in the Nats (whose members include both economic ''dries'' and ''wets'') would have liked to go further. But they they won't be pushing it. The Nats believe Abbott is the best Liberal leader they could have. Malcolm Turnbull wasn't on their wavelength, and if Hockey had won the top job, he wouldn't have been either.
In government, things would get really interesting between the Liberals and the Nationals if Joyce, expected to move to the House of Representatives at the election, became deputy prime minister. This would not happen in the short term. But assuming Truss later retired, Joyce would probably get the numbers.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/real-battles-lie-within-abbotts-own-camp-20120803-23kw1.html#ixzz22Y8T48x6


Considering that they will likely soon run the country, it's instructive to ask the question: why does a party that represents 3% of the country have such a disproportionate say over how we should conduct our relations with China? Why are these extremist agrarian socialists given so much power?


Sounds like the patry reached a reasonable compomise.

We'll be sitting aorund with our heads in our arse as some creep tells us...

"Don't worry it's only 10%" >> "Don't worry it's only 15%" >> "Don't worry it's only 20%"
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
gold_medal
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 3897
Gender: male
Re: Why are the Libs letting the Nats dictate to them?
Reply #8 - Aug 6th, 2012 at 2:03pm
 
Upton Sinclair wrote on Aug 4th, 2012 at 2:43pm:
I was pondering starting a very similar thread jut a few hours ago but got distracted with some other stuff! Grin

I would also point out that people who complain about the Greens influence when they only got 11% of the primary vote in 2010 should really have a look at the NP's 3% and ask themselves why a party with only a fractional representation in the electorate can wield such disproportionate over cabinet and policy?

http://www.abc.net.au/elections/federal/2010/guide/parties.htm


The reason the likes of the greendarkness doesnt understand this is because most coalitions actually respect their partners and support them. the greens so only what the greens want. They dont play well with others and never have.

And the Nats 4% vote is an irrelevant measure because they dont stand nationally. The average of their vote - where they actually stand is close to 40% or 4 tiems that of the greens. That is called valid statisically analysis and not the drivel the post originally came up with.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Prevailing
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 7169
Stop Men
Re: Why are the Libs letting the Nats dictate to them?
Reply #9 - Aug 6th, 2012 at 3:45pm
 
No political party has the power or the right to impose radical ideology that conflicts with individual citizens constitutional rights - any citizen has legal recourse against political activism and social engineers... Smiley Smiley
Back to top
 

I condemn Male Violence Against Women
The Government Supports Gynocide
There Is Something Dreadfully Wrong With Men
 
IP Logged
 
progressiveslol
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 17029
Re: Why are the Libs letting the Nats dictate to them?
Reply #10 - Aug 6th, 2012 at 3:57pm
 
People know they are voting a coalition when they vote liberal or nat. They dont know they are voting a coalition when they are voting labor.

liberals would not say 'there will be no carbon tax under a government we lead' and then have the nats make them have one and sell out the people who voted liberal.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Upton Sinclair
Senior Member
****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 496
Re: Why are the Libs letting the Nats dictate to them?
Reply #11 - Aug 6th, 2012 at 7:02pm
 
An excellent piece on the disproportionate influence the NP has over the Coalition. Why are we putting our entire relationship with China at risk, our biggest trading partner, just to placate the whims of madmen like Barnaby and his band Merry Protectionist Pranksters and the 3% of the electorate that they actually represent?

Quote:
TONY Abbott and Barnaby Joyce get each other; they are kindred spirits in some respects, cut from the same cultural cloth.

Before Abbott assumed the responsibility of the leadership, he and Joyce exhibited common traits as politicians: raffish conservatives, with a tendency to speak startling truths to lurking television cameras.

These days, Abbott embodies the very principle of sound-bite discipline. He's clean-freak tidy in utterance.

Barnaby less so, although periodically he tries. With Joyce, the metaphors surge like white water, careening into one another. Containment via talking points and gaffer tape is never a viable option.

Both are in transition to being the leadership combination of the next Coalition government. Through this period of opposition, they are forging their pact, case study by case study.

All Liberal leaders must define their accommodation with the Nationals. John Howard, a devout coalitionist, had the affable Tim Fischer and a couple of instinctive freeish-marketeers and free-traders in John Anderson and Mark Vaile.

The compact Howard forged with the Nationals was uncomplicated. We Liberals do the economic policy (some of it tough for your constituents, sorry) and, in return, have this money. Scads of it, to invest in roads, bridges, swimming pools and the like. Sorry to be blunt, but there it is.

It wasn't all plain sailing of course. Joyce's arrival in 2005 was a game-changer in Coalition relations. The bush populist was on a mission to restore the distinct identity of the Nats. The Joyce philosophy was that Nationals should dance with the people who brought them to Canberra, to a tune selected by those people.

Joyce fractured the settled pact by changing the internal dynamic within the Nationals.
There was consequent angst. In Peter Costello's office, teeth were ground in frustration. Staff from Howard's office (and beyond) were deployed to the Senate with an explicit mandate to Barnaby whisper.

But despite the uptick in irritation, the fundamentals (Liberals do policy, Nationals prime pumps) remained in place through the Howard years.

Now there's a new era.

If Abbott wins the next election, he will govern in different circumstances than his predecessors, with different personnel. And while I'm sure he'd refute this, Abbott is not by reflex Howard, Costello or Peter Reith on economic philosophy; not a crusader on policies that are articles of faith for the free-market right of the Liberal Party.

Abbott wants to win, not genuflect in abstraction before the H. R. Nicholls Society. And last week's Coalition discussion paper on foreign investment provides instructive material in interpreting the new and evolving Coalition pact.

Future food security is a policy issue worth debating. But you certainly cannot imagine Costello in government copping cheerfully a dramatic reduction in the threshold for overseas purchases of farm land. There would have been objections about populism, the signalling, and about excessive red tape for investors - which the Coalition as a whole professes to be against.

Feeling no obligation to mince words about the current dynamic, Reith noted last week that Joyce ''has a bias towards protectionism and … does not like foreign investment''. Finance Minister Penny Wong forged a unity ticket. The Nats, she said, were now ''writing Coalition economic policy''.

The Nationals are doubtless pushing the envelope - wanting hard policy concessions as well as cash. That incursion troubles the rationalist Liberals, compounded by Abbott's own pragmatic tendencies.
Will he be tough enough with them? It's an important question, because it will define the essential character of his government.

My view on the substance of the foreign investment change is it's likely more political window dressing than substance: a clarion call to the Coalition base and Labor's blue-collar outer suburban ''battlers'' who've defected to Abbott, rather than a policy revolution. (And a nod to Sydney radio king Alan Jones, who has been off the leash on farmland.)

The Nats did not get as much as they wanted. Activists wanted the foreign investment regime knocked down and rebuilt - in the end they got a new kitchen and some patriotic wallpaper.
Warren Truss managed to keep a lid on Joyce (which is in his interests given he is still the Nationals' leader, and in Abbott's interests given the free-marketeers in the Liberal Party made it clear they would cop only so much politicking on this question, and no more).

But while the Coalition rationalists console themselves that it could have been so much worse, these facts remain. Evidence shows we don't have a ''problem'' with foreign investment in agricultural land. Maybe we will develop one, but we haven't yet.

Foreign investment is, as Abbott says, unequivocally good for this country. That's a hard message to sell. Given that reality, best you don't trip lightly into adjusting a regime that seems to work in the national interest, whatever the apocalyptic pub talk might suggest. Everything you give away becomes impossible to give back.

Direction matters. Precedent matters, even if political reality requires balancing internal interests. The counter argument to ''nothing substantive to see here'' is a question that lingers after last week's compromise : what are you saying here, Mr Abbott?


Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/will-joyce-have-abbott-dancing-to-the-bush-populists-tune-20120805-23nqg.html#ixzz22krPazzy
Back to top
« Last Edit: Aug 6th, 2012 at 7:10pm by Upton Sinclair »  

"I am not asking the Australian people to take me on trust, but on the record of a lifetime,"
--Tony Abbott
 
IP Logged
 
Avram Horowitz
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 3153
Australia
Gender: male
Re: Why are the Libs letting the Nats dictate to them?
Reply #12 - Aug 6th, 2012 at 7:05pm
 
Upton Sinclair wrote on Aug 6th, 2012 at 7:02pm:
An excellent piece on the disproportionate influence the NP has over the Coalition. Why are we putting our entire relationship with China, our biggest trading partner, just to placate the whims on madmen like Barnaby and the 3% of the electorate that they actually represent?

Quote:
TONY Abbott and Barnaby Joyce get each other; they are kindred spirits in some respects, cut from the same cultural cloth.

Before Abbott assumed the responsibility of the leadership, he and Joyce exhibited common traits as politicians: raffish conservatives, with a tendency to speak startling truths to lurking television cameras.

These days, Abbott embodies the very principle of sound-bite discipline. He's clean-freak tidy in utterance.

Barnaby less so, although periodically he tries. With Joyce, the metaphors surge like white water, careening into one another. Containment via talking points and gaffer tape is never a viable option.

Both are in transition to being the leadership combination of the next Coalition government. Through this period of opposition, they are forging their pact, case study by case study.

All Liberal leaders must define their accommodation with the Nationals. John Howard, a devout coalitionist, had the affable Tim Fischer and a couple of instinctive freeish-marketeers and free-traders in John Anderson and Mark Vaile.

The compact Howard forged with the Nationals was uncomplicated. We Liberals do the economic policy (some of it tough for your constituents, sorry) and, in return, have this money. Scads of it, to invest in roads, bridges, swimming pools and the like. Sorry to be blunt, but there it is.

It wasn't all plain sailing of course. Joyce's arrival in 2005 was a game-changer in Coalition relations. The bush populist was on a mission to restore the distinct identity of the Nats. The Joyce philosophy was that Nationals should dance with the people who brought them to Canberra, to a tune selected by those people.

Joyce fractured the settled pact by changing the internal dynamic within the Nationals.
There was consequent angst. In Peter Costello's office, teeth were ground in frustration. Staff from Howard's office (and beyond) were deployed to the Senate with an explicit mandate to Barnaby whisper.

But despite the uptick in irritation, the fundamentals (Liberals do policy, Nationals prime pumps) remained in place through the Howard years.

Now there's a new era.

If Abbott wins the next election, he will govern in different circumstances than his predecessors, with different personnel. And while I'm sure he'd refute this, Abbott is not by reflex Howard, Costello or Peter Reith on economic philosophy; not a crusader on policies that are articles of faith for the free-market right of the Liberal Party.

Abbott wants to win, not genuflect in abstraction before the H. R. Nicholls Society. And last week's Coalition discussion paper on foreign investment provides instructive material in interpreting the new and evolving Coalition pact.

Future food security is a policy issue worth debating. But you certainly cannot imagine Costello in government copping cheerfully a dramatic reduction in the threshold for overseas purchases of farm land. There would have been objections about populism, the signalling, and about excessive red tape for investors - which the Coalition as a whole professes to be against.

Feeling no obligation to mince words about the current dynamic, Reith noted last week that Joyce ''has a bias towards protectionism and … does not like foreign investment''. Finance Minister Penny Wong forged a unity ticket. The Nats, she said, were now ''writing Coalition economic policy''.

The Nationals are doubtless pushing the envelope - wanting hard policy concessions as well as cash. That incursion troubles the rationalist Liberals, compounded by Abbott's own pragmatic tendencies.
Will he be tough enough with them? It's an important question, because it will define the essential character of his government.

My view on the substance of the foreign investment change is it's likely more political window dressing than substance: a clarion call to the Coalition base and Labor's blue-collar outer suburban ''battlers'' who've defected to Abbott, rather than a policy revolution. (And a nod to Sydney radio king Alan Jones, who has been off the leash on farmland.)

The Nats did not get as much as they wanted. Activists wanted the foreign investment regime knocked down and rebuilt - in the end they got a new kitchen and some patriotic wallpaper.
Warren Truss managed to keep a lid on Joyce (which is in his interests given he is still the Nationals' leader, and in Abbott's interests given the free-marketeers in the Liberal Party made it clear they would cop only so much politicking on this question, and no more).

But while the Coalition rationalists console themselves that it could have been so much worse, these facts remain. Evidence shows we don't have a ''problem'' with foreign investment in agricultural land. Maybe we will develop one, but we haven't yet.

Foreign investment is, as Abbott says, unequivocally good for this country. That's a hard message to sell. Given that reality, best you don't trip lightly into adjusting a regime that seems to work in the national interest, whatever the apocalyptic pub talk might suggest. Everything you give away becomes impossible to give back.

Direction matters. Precedent matters, even if political reality requires balancing internal interests. The counter argument to ''nothing substantive to see here'' is a question that lingers after last week's compromise : what are you saying here, Mr Abbott?


Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/will-joyce-have-abbott-dancing-to-the-bush-populists-tune-20120805-23nqg.html#ixzz22krPazzy



China.
A country with one of the worst human rights abuse records in history.
And you want to be their friend?

Are you not big enough to stand up and tell them where they are wrong?
You must be a coward and say nothing?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Upton Sinclair
Senior Member
****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 496
Re: Why are the Libs letting the Nats dictate to them?
Reply #13 - Aug 6th, 2012 at 7:13pm
 
Avram Horowitz wrote on Aug 6th, 2012 at 7:05pm:
China.
A country with one of the worst human rights abuse records in history.
And you want to be their friend?

Are you not big enough to stand up and tell them where they are wrong?
You must be a coward and say nothing?


Off-topic, strawman and I don't for a second believe you're really an Israeli student.

...
Back to top
 

"I am not asking the Australian people to take me on trust, but on the record of a lifetime,"
--Tony Abbott
 
IP Logged
 
Upton Sinclair
Senior Member
****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 496
Re: Why are the Libs letting the Nats dictate to them?
Reply #14 - Aug 6th, 2012 at 7:17pm
 
''(The National Party) has a bias towards protectionism and … does not like foreign investment''

--Peter Reith, Liberal Party elder statesman


Why are we letting these loons dictate our foreign/economic policy? Tony Abbott once made Joyce SHADOW FINANCE MINISTER!!
Back to top
 

"I am not asking the Australian people to take me on trust, but on the record of a lifetime,"
--Tony Abbott
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print