Australian Politics Forum - Climate change is here

muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought Reply #105 - Aug 19^th, 2012 at 7:48am Soren wrote on Aug 17^th, 2012 at 9:19pm: Love you, man! There's nothing like a boffin trying to make sense for the great unwashed. By the way, I should have said "combine" the feedbacks rather than "add up". In another forum I frequent, that would have been jumped on pretty quickly.
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progressiveslol

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought
Reply #106 - Aug 19^th, 2012 at 8:14am

muso wrote on Aug 19^th, 2012 at 7:38am:

I'd rather focus on trying to explain how it works rather than ridiculing people for making daft statements. We all do that. Mind you, many of us correct ourselves afterwards.

It is still not a daft statement just because you dont understand a like for like cloud act the same anywhere..

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Upton Sinclair Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 496	Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought Reply #107 - Aug 19^th, 2012 at 10:52am progressiveslol wrote on Aug 19^th, 2012 at 8:14am: just because you dont understand a like for like cloud act the same anywhere.. I certainly can't understand what you've written here. Care to explain it in more detail for we humble peons?
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muso

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought
Reply #108 - Aug 19^th, 2012 at 11:08am

progressiveslol wrote on Aug 19^th, 2012 at 8:14am:

muso wrote on Aug 19^th, 2012 at 7:38am:

I'd rather focus on trying to explain how it works rather than ridiculing people for making daft statements. We all do that. Mind you, many of us correct ourselves afterwards.

It is still not a daft statement just because you dont understand a like for like cloud act the same anywhere..

I was mainly trying to stop DRAH ridiculing you, but hey, please vindicate yourself. Let's start by taking a high altitude tropical cirrus cloud at say 14,000 metres , so explain to me what the "like" would be at mid latitudes and polar latitudes, because in the West African Sahel, that would be a fairly typical height for cirrus. (You can phone a friend)

I'm just trying to make you think before you post. Remember, there is no such thing as a stupid question, but there is definitely such a thing as a stupid assertion.

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« Last Edit: Aug 19^th, 2012 at 11:20am by muso »

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Soren

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought
Reply #109 - Aug 19^th, 2012 at 11:09am

muso wrote on Aug 19^th, 2012 at 7:48am:

Soren wrote on Aug 17^th, 2012 at 9:19pm:

Love you, man!

There's nothing like a boffin trying to make sense for the great unwashed.

By the way, I should have said "combine" the feedbacks rather than "add up". In another forum I frequent, that would have been jumped on pretty quickly.

Yes, I noticed that but though it would be petty to pull you up on it. I was quietly confident you'd self-correct.

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progressiveslol

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought
Reply #110 - Aug 19^th, 2012 at 11:46am

muso wrote on Aug 19^th, 2012 at 11:08am:

progressiveslol wrote on Aug 19^th, 2012 at 8:14am:

muso wrote on Aug 19^th, 2012 at 7:38am:

I'd rather focus on trying to explain how it works rather than ridiculing people for making daft statements. We all do that. Mind you, many of us correct ourselves afterwards.

It is still not a daft statement just because you dont understand a like for like cloud act the same anywhere..

I was mainly trying to stop DRAH ridiculing you, but hey, please vindicate yourself. Let's start by taking a high altitude tropical cirrus cloud at say 14,000 metres , so explain to me what the "like" would be at mid latitudes and polar latitudes, because in the West African Sahel, that would be a fairly typical height for cirrus. (You can phone a friend)

I'm just trying to make you think before you post. Remember, there is no such thing as a stupid question, but there is definitely such a thing as a stupid assertion.

That would not be like for like.

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought Reply #111 - Aug 19^th, 2012 at 4:39pm You'll have to explain what you mean. Maybe you could give us an example of what you mean by like for like. What about tropical convective clouds then? Some pretty major feedbacks there. What factors determine "like for like" as you put it?
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progressiveslol

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought
Reply #112 - Aug 19^th, 2012 at 4:55pm

muso wrote on Aug 19^th, 2012 at 4:39pm:

You'll have to explain what you mean. Maybe you could give us an example of what you mean by like for like. What about tropical convective clouds then? Some pretty major feedbacks there.

What factors determine "like for like" as you put it?

I am talking like for like in every way. It would have to be height, density, convection, even chemical make up should be similar ect ect.

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muso

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought
Reply #113 - Aug 19^th, 2012 at 6:54pm

progressiveslol wrote on Aug 19^th, 2012 at 4:55pm:

muso wrote on Aug 19^th, 2012 at 4:39pm:

You'll have to explain what you mean. Maybe you could give us an example of what you mean by like for like. What about tropical convective clouds then? Some pretty major feedbacks there.

What factors determine "like for like" as you put it?

I am talking like for like in every way. It would have to be height, density, convection, even chemical make up should be similar ect ect.

... then you might as well throw in geographical location and season if you want like for like. You do realise that cloud altitudes are much higher in tropical latitudes for one thing? For example, high clouds range from about 6000 metres to about 18,000 metres in the tropics, whereas similar clouds are found between about 5000 metres and 13,000 metres at mid latitudes.

Cloud altitude has a considerable effect on radiative feedback for several reasons. For a start, feedback can have negative and positive components. Usually positive feedbacks result from reflection/emission of IR radiation back to ground level from the cloud base, whereas negative feedbacks result from radiation from the cloud ceiling to outer space. The altitude of the clouds also has impacts on increasing the moisture content of the upper atmosphere, which increases radiative feedback etc.

So in practice it's extremely difficult to account for variations in planetary boundary layer (among other factors) when calculating cloud feedbacks. Studies like Miller, M., Ghate, V., Zahn, R., (2012) are intended to improve our understanding of regional cloud feedback processes and hence improve the resolution of regional climate prediction.

Of course, every single denialist site on the blogosphere will misinterpret, clutch at straws,seize the wrong end of the stick and just about everything else they can do.

The sad thing is that the likes of Anthony Watts is about as ignorant on the subject as you are, based on your responses.

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« Last Edit: Aug 19^th, 2012 at 7:12pm by muso »

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progressiveslol

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought
Reply #114 - Aug 19^th, 2012 at 7:01pm

muso wrote on Aug 19^th, 2012 at 6:54pm:

progressiveslol wrote on Aug 19^th, 2012 at 4:55pm:

muso wrote on Aug 19^th, 2012 at 4:39pm:

You'll have to explain what you mean. Maybe you could give us an example of what you mean by like for like. What about tropical convective clouds then? Some pretty major feedbacks there.

What factors determine "like for like" as you put it?

I am talking like for like in every way. It would have to be height, density, convection, even chemical make up should be similar ect ect.

... then you might as well throw in geographical location and season if you want like for like. You do realise that cloud altitudes are much higher in tropical latitudes for one thing? For example, high clouds range from about 600 metres to about 18,000 metres in the tropics, whereas similar clouds are found between about 5000 metres and 13,000 metres at mid latitudes.

Cloud altitude has a considerable effect on radiative feedback for several reasons. For a start, feedback can have negative and positive components. Usually negative feedbacks result from emission of IR radiation to ground level from the cloud base, whereas positive feedbacks result from radiation from the cloud ceiling to outer space. The altitude of the clouds also has impacts on increasing the moisture content of the upper atmosphere, which increases radiative feedback etc.

So in practice it's extremely difficult to account for variations in planetary boundary layer (among other factors) when calculating cloud feedbacks. Studies like Miller, M., Ghate, V., Zahn, R., (2012) are intended to improve our understanding of cloud feedback prediction and hence improve the resolution of regional climate prediction.

Of course, every single denialist site on the blogosphere will misinterpret, clutch at straws,seize the wrong end of the stick and just about everything else they can do.

The sad thing is that the likes of Anthony Watts is about as ignorant on the subject as you are, based on your responses.

So what you are saying is that there is plenty of like for like overlap considering height depending on what the paper had for its cloud height.

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought Reply #115 - Aug 19^th, 2012 at 7:16pm Quote: So what you are saying is that there is plenty of like for like overlap considering height depending on what the paper had for its cloud height. No- unless you're just talking about altitude. Do some reading.
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progressiveslol Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17029	Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought Reply #116 - Aug 19^th, 2012 at 7:24pm muso wrote on Aug 19^th, 2012 at 7:16pm: Quote: So what you are saying is that there is plenty of like for like overlap considering height depending on what the paper had for its cloud height. No- unless you're just talking about altitude. Do some reading. Yes I read what you wrote.
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Chrislee New Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 13 Gender:	Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought Reply #117 - Aug 27^th, 2012 at 7:31pm Climate change will bring to us.
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BatteriesNotIncluded Gold Member Offline MediocrityNET: because people died for this! Posts: 26966	Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought Reply #118 - Aug 27^th, 2012 at 7:39pm Chrislee wrote on Aug 27^th, 2012 at 7:31pm: Climate change will bring to us. yes it will!!
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gizmo_2655 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 16010 South West NSW Gender:	Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought Reply #119 - Aug 27^th, 2012 at 8:32pm BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Aug 27^th, 2012 at 7:39pm: Chrislee wrote on Aug 27^th, 2012 at 7:31pm: Climate change will bring to us. yes it will!! Will bring to us ..WHAT?? I understand that you, (and Chrislee) may not be able to answer this question..
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