Western Apologist, it looks like I missed one of your posts.
bobbythefap1 wrote on Aug 23
rd, 2012 at 3:02pm:
This is irrelevant, the point is that god supposedly gave the land to a small group of Jews thousands of years ago who now have many descendants living in Palestine and throughout the middle east and Europe. According to the religion that Avram follows he will go to hell for killing these people which statistically he has.
No, it isn't irrelevant because the identity of Jews isn't in their genes. The main reason why they behave like a race is because of how the religion passes from one generation to another. It's not genetic lineage that is important, but religious lineage. Jews parents bring up their kids with Jewish practices and expect them to pass them on to their own children.
bobbythefap1 wrote on Aug 23
rd, 2012 at 3:02pm:
Pretty sad attempt at gaining an argument when you have none.
You didn't even explain why I was wrong, so your point here is void. In fact, you didn't make a point here at all because you offered no explanation for this statement. Your words here are empty.
bobbythefap1 wrote on Aug 23
rd, 2012 at 3:02pm:
There god is pretty specific that the people to whom the land of Israel belongs to are gods chosen people and must not be violated.
Wrong. It goes both ways. Jews must not arise out of exile before the proper time. At the same time, the "gentile nations" are not to persecute them to such extremes that it becomes genocide. This allegedly happened during the Holocaust, which was what got modern Zionism started and is one of the main reasons why the modern state of Israel was established. Many Jews probably think of this as the "gentile nations" violating the Three Oaths made with the ancient Europeans (ie. Romans).
Jews have many different views on whether this modern state of Israel was really necessary or justified. Some say the Three Oaths were broken, whereas others believe that even if it wasn't broken it's not part of Jewish Law anyway so they don't have to honour it. Some say the Three Oaths are just folklore used for educational purposes (for the next generation of Jewish kids) and impose no moral limits on the conduct of Jews around the world.
I personally do not believe a "religion" needs a nation state and national army. I am not particularly likely to support the actions of the IDF when it is motivated by religion. Defending a nation state independently of any religion, however is a completely different matter. It depends whether you think Israel is a secular state or not. I am just saying you might be wrong about Avram's religion.
Avram is probably doing this more for his people than his religion.
bobbythefap1 wrote on Aug 23
rd, 2012 at 3:02pm:
Haha but what about for people who violate gods law like they have?
The "Old Testament" says very little about an afterlife, which is why I think Avram doesn't seem to be showing much of an interest in your arguments about "hell." Historically, Jews didn't have much of an interest in the afterlife except after the Babylonian Exile. That's why the afterlife is such a big issue in Christianity. It's because Christianity sprang up during a time when Jews became obsessed with mysticism and otherworldly phenomena. Even then it was just a temporary abode before the general resurrection. In other words, the afterlife wasn't the final destination. It was just a waiting period.
bobbythefap1 wrote on Aug 23
rd, 2012 at 3:02pm:
Fact is that these ancient people integrated and many direct descendants are now living in Palestine and many have been killed by Israeli terrorists.
Like I said, it's not about genetic lineage, but religious lineage. It is about how the religion is passed on, whether it is from parent to child or from the community to an outsider through conversion. Not all are blood descendants of the original Jews, just blood descendants of converts. They obviously have few qualms about being hostile to people who are blood descendants of the same ancestors, because these blood descendants no longer follow the same religion. That's not a contradiction. The survival of the way of life, not the genes is what matters.
Not all Australians have European ancestry. It's the same concept. There's a way to become part of "Judaism" just like there's a way to become part of "Australia."
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