Australian Politics Forum - Mutual Obligation

Sappho

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 1406
Gender: female

Mutual Obligation
Sep 9^th, 2012 at 10:56am

It is the case in Australia that Society supports those who, for what ever reason, cannot support themselves. Our tax system ensures that earned income is redistributed to those in need. This is societies obligation to the needy.

The needy however also have an obligation to Society, depending upon the kind of assistance they are getting and on their capacity to meet certain of those obligations.

Those on pensions have an overarching obligation to present an honest account of their situation and notify of any changes to their situation in a speedy manner.

For Carer's there is an additional obligation to care full time for a person who cannot care for themselves.

For many Allowance recipients who are working age there is an additional obligation of being seen to be looking for work and/or increasing or maintaining their employability so that they can become independent or at least reduce their Welfare dependency.

So my question to the readership is this: What kinds of activities should Society expect a Welfare Dependant person to engage, in order to satisfy their obligation to Society?

I'll kick it off with a couple of examples that currently are in play.

Youth who receive Youth Allowance have no exemption to study where it is that they have not completed their Secondary Education. They must engage in comparable studies such as Certificate III and IV Nationally Accredited studies, or be working, or be involved in a holistic youth program which addresses social and economic issues. Idleness is not an option.

Older Australians, 55 and over, but under retirement age, as has been pointed out by the moderator of this sub forum and Crooked, struggle to secure employment for themselves, and consequently their obligation to society is shifted somewhat to account for this age bias attitude to working age people. Essentially then, if the Mature Aged can secure 15 hrs per week of employment or volunteer their time to a not for profit organisation, their obligation to Society will be deemed satisfied.

But what about the long term unemployed or those from a Generational Welfare Dependency households: What should their obligation to Society be?

Back to top

"Love is a cunning weaver of fantasies and fables."

IP Logged

Kat

Gold Member

Offline

Socialism IS the answer.

Posts: 17709
Everywhere and no-where
Gender: female

Re: Mutual Obligation
Reply #1 - Sep 9^th, 2012 at 12:58pm

Quote: - "But what about the long term unemployed or those from a Generational Welfare Dependency households: What should their obligation to Society be? "

Actually, a very good question.

It would depend on their attitude more than anything else.

Even a long-term u/e may find work IF he keeps looking, it's
not impossible, and it isn't necessarily that they don't look.

Looking but failing, isn't bludging. Not looking at all is. And this
has nothing to do with the length of time spent on the dole.

A friend is a case-manager at Mission Employment, and he says
that it all comes down to attitude.

He says he has long-term blokes who never miss interviews, are
well-presented, and will 'take anything' but some short-termers
who won't do a thing to help themselves. Almost all of his mature-
age clients do volunteer work by choice, not compulsion.

To single the long-term out is not indicative of their willingness
to work, or perceived lack of it. More the perception that they
'must' be bludgers, or they'd have found work.

As to obligations.....I'm now speaking of those who won't make
any effort, not the genuine unemployed in general....

Well, there's always Work for the Dole, but it is purely punitive
with no benefit whatsoever to the job-seeker. Nor was it ever
intended to be. Makes the 'tax-payer' feel good, that's about
the only benefit.

Or there's mandated training. Not that there is anywhere near
enough of this available, and much of what is, isn't relevant to
today's workforce needs.

Other than that, I don't know. But I doubt that taking their
meagre allowance away because of it is the right answer.

Back to top

IP Logged

Kat

Gold Member

Offline

Socialism IS the answer.

Posts: 17709
Everywhere and no-where
Gender: female

Re: Mutual Obligation
Reply #2 - Sep 9^th, 2012 at 1:07pm

And no, generally speaking I have no problem with the unemployed being
expected to 'give' a bit to society in return for the dole, but NOT on a punitive
basis.

But the GOVT has an obligation to ensure that the payments are adequate.

They have repeatedly refused to do so.

In this, surely the Govt have breached THEIR side of 'mutual obligation'?

Back to top

IP Logged

Sappho

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 1406
Gender: female

Re: Mutual Obligation
Reply #3 - Sep 9^th, 2012 at 2:05pm

Just to re-clarify... this thread is not about the adequacy of payments, nor is about dole bludgers (what ever that means), nor is about punishing Welfare Dependent people.

This is about Mutual Obligations and what those obligations should be for the Welfare Dependent, with a focus on long term unemployed and generational welfare dependency.

CAN WE PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC FOR AT LEAST A COUPLE OF PAGES. Is that asking too much from the moderator?

Back to top

"Love is a cunning weaver of fantasies and fables."

IP Logged

Sir Spot of Borg Gold Member Offline WE ARE BORG Posts: 26515 Australia	Re: Mutual Obligation Reply #4 - Sep 9^th, 2012 at 4:51pm IMO work for the dole is slave labour. If they are going to make you work for it then they should pay you properly and call it a job. SOB
Back to top	Whaaaaaah! I'm a Moron! - edited by some unethical admin - you think its funny? - its a slippery slope IP Logged

Sappho

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 1406
Gender: female

Re: Mutual Obligation
Reply #5 - Sep 9^th, 2012 at 5:09pm

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 4:51pm:

IMO work for the dole is slave labour. If they are going to make you work for it then they should pay you properly and call it a job. SOB

I am inclined to agree with you. Do you think it would be better if they were removed from NSA once they become long term unemployed (that is, no work in 12 months) and placed on a 'Welfare Wage' which will pay minimum wage for amount of hours worked up to the value of NSA in a Work for the Dole project?

So for example $15.96 (min wage per hr) x 15 hrs work per week = $239.40 (which is approx NSA weekly amount)

Back to top

« Last Edit: Sep 9^th, 2012 at 5:32pm by Sappho »

"Love is a cunning weaver of fantasies and fables."

IP Logged

Dnarever Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 59731 Here Gender:	Re: Mutual Obligation Reply #6 - Sep 9^th, 2012 at 5:52pm I am not a believer in mutual obligation; the term is primarily just an excuse to punish people on welfare.
Back to top	IP Logged

Sappho Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 1406 Gender:	Re: Mutual Obligation Reply #7 - Sep 9^th, 2012 at 6:53pm Dnarever wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 5:52pm: I am not a believer in mutual obligation; the term is primarily just an excuse to punish people on welfare. So you believe that society has no obligation to the individual and the individual has no obligation to society eh?
Back to top	"Love is a cunning weaver of fantasies and fables." IP Logged

Kat

Gold Member

Offline

Socialism IS the answer.

Posts: 17709
Everywhere and no-where
Gender: female

Re: Mutual Obligation
Reply #8 - Sep 9^th, 2012 at 9:05pm

Sappho wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 2:05pm:

Just to re-clarify... this thread is not about the adequacy of payments, nor is about dole bludgers (what ever that means), nor is about punishing Welfare Dependent people.

This is about Mutual Obligations and what those obligations should be for the Welfare Dependent, with a focus on long term unemployed and generational welfare dependency.

CAN WE PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC FOR AT LEAST A COUPLE OF PAGES. Is that asking too much from the moderator?

Um, both my posts addressed your main point, ie mutual
obligation and the long-term OR welfare-dependent.

So, no, not off-topic.

I actually think that they both rather supported your view
that the unemployed should give something back.

Contextual references are just that, contextual.

Back to top

IP Logged

warrigal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2569 australia Gender:	Re: Mutual Obligation Reply #9 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 10:21am If you don't like people becoming welfare dependant, Well then provide them with a JOB. You won't fix unemployment if you do nothing to help people, And unemployed person doing mutual obligation activities does help them. Providing them with a JOB helps them. To not be welfare Depentdant.
Back to top	If you can create a big enough lie about someone IGNORANT people will bellieve it. The bigger the Arshole you are on this forum, the more right you have to stay. IP Logged

Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 109065 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Mutual Obligation Reply #10 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 10:35am Quote: But what about the long term unemployed or those from a Generational Welfare Dependency households: What should their obligation to Society be? Centerlink already has rules about that. Maybe you should come up with a few ideas.
Back to top	IP Logged

warrigal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2569 australia Gender:	Re: Mutual Obligation Reply #11 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 10:41am Here' s the solution, run employment programs that lead to perminent work. Not mutial obligation that leads back to unemployment.
Back to top	If you can create a big enough lie about someone IGNORANT people will bellieve it. The bigger the Arshole you are on this forum, the more right you have to stay. IP Logged

Lord Herbert

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 34441
Gender: male

Re: Mutual Obligation
Reply #12 - May 22^nd, 2013 at 3:36pm

Perhaps the dole could be offered as a legitimate alternative lifestyle option for bachelors and spinsters?

It would remove Tens of Thousands of single people from the workplace ~ thus creating vacancies for married couples who need a double income to care for their children and pay off their homes.

I've read your rules, Kat, but fair suck of the sav ~ is this bullshit or not?

I don't believe for one brief moment that this situation ISN'T brought about by lack of personal responsibility.

In the suburb where I live there's a taxi rank. Over the years I've noticed that the people who mostly use this expensive service are wretched-looking bogans with fags hanging out of their mouths and a brood of unwashed brats hanging onto the stroller that's carrying the latest baby bonus ($5000).

Often they'll be carrying a box of tinnies to take home.

And then we're told their starving.

Back to top

IP Logged

Kat

Gold Member

Offline

Socialism IS the answer.

Posts: 17709
Everywhere and no-where
Gender: female

Re: Mutual Obligation
Reply #13 - May 28^th, 2013 at 8:42am

I hope you aren't arguing that the 'working poor' are deserving of charity assistance, but the unemployed aren't?

And I notice that you judge one's employment-status by their dress and behaviour. I know and even work with
people who, when not at work look and act just as you describe. But they aren't unemployed.

As for personal responsibility or the lack of... let me tell you a story.

Last time I became unemployed, it had absolutely nothing to do with personal responsibility or the lack of it on
my part, but everything to do with the company I worked for going broke. But I was abused and vilified for being
out of work, as if it had been 100% my fault. And of course, I was a 'bludger' despite working tirelessly for charity
as a volunteer.And yes, I starved, the dole is not nearly enough to pay for rent and essential services and expect
to eat too.

And I saw that other unemployed, no matter how or for how long they'd been out of work, were also being vilified
and abused, discriminated against, and generally being treated like some kind of different, barely-human sub-species
deserving of nothing but contempt. With no justification whatsoever.

Then there was the way they get used as political fodder and as targets ant budget/election times. I decided that
it was time something was done, and so started becoming active politically to try to get them a better deal and to
dispel once and for all the offensive and untrue Howardian 'dole-bludger' myth.

Support for this is growing by the day now, with all kinds of unlikely sources getting aboard.

We WILL win...

Back to top

IP Logged

Lord Herbert

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 34441
Gender: male

Re: Mutual Obligation
Reply #14 - May 28^th, 2013 at 11:31am

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 4:51pm:

IMO work for the dole is slave labour. If they are going to make you work for it then they should pay you properly and call it a job.

SOB

I'm inclined to agree with this because it's a very logical conclusion.

If you're not Working for the Dole ~ then you ARE on the dole.

But if you ARE under a compulsory work-order from the government, then their payments to you can't be classified as the dole, but wages.

It's mutually contradictory to say 'Working for the Dole'.

It can only be a dole for being unemployed, or it's a wage for you working.

Back to top

IP Logged